[F-Misthebest]

North Fargo. If you stick a couple of nice chain resaurants up there, retail, big box store, and some parks, this would be such a nice place. There are so many trees up there and it's close to downtown, NDSU, Fargodome, Newman Outdoor Field, dog park, Edgewood golf course, hotels, technology park, airport, and the interstate. There are two new hotels up there. Candlewood Suites and Homewood Suites by Hilton. The city of Fargo has talked about building some parks and more retail up there to encourage growth. I personally love North Fargo. It has the north woods feel to it.

The annexation thing is stupid. Yes, Fargo has lots of people moving to the south east along the Red River and near Bennet elementery but don't forget about southwest Fargo. From my understanding the SW part of the city is growing more rapidly. Annex south south of 52nd people. Who cares about the Barnes Township.

[Midwesterner19]

People with who have lots of money will also shop at botiques. Have you been to Uptown Cottage in Downtown Fargo. It does extremely well with their neat cape cod style furniture. I know plenty of botiques in downtown that have done well. Rich people don't just want to shop at Home Depot or Big Box retailers at all. That is a horibble stereotype. There are plenty of wealthy people walking downtown everyday. Believe me. I've seen it. I visit my dad in downtown a lot and there is a lot of wealthy people walking in downtown Fargo & Moorhead. How do you think those stores stay open. Use your noodle.:D

Yeah, that and the small scandenavian furniture store and a few thrift shops are the botiques I guess. Fargo's retail sector downtown is less then that of our sister city in the state to our South and once you take the alcohol serving establishments out its about the same as Grand Forks, which is really redevoloping their downtown fast just look at their paper. The Great Northern and that other restaurant next to the half-block long presently plywooded building sure did well didn't they because they closed!!


I can sure see the crowds of birds in downtown Fargo but I see few people.

Just out of curiousity what is your definition of "plenty" and "alot" of people walking around downtown? It can mean different things to different people, some say one is plenty others say 1,000 is plenty.

In my experience downtown it seems like usually other then cars and lots of them trying to get from Interstate 94 to North Fargo after a day of shopping at the mall!! and you see hardly anybody walking around like one would see in other cities. Sure is great walking on a street that people are driving past at 40 mph to whip the dirt and debris that the cities doesnt tend to clean up!!

I think what would make Downtown Fargo nice is a SuperTarget and Border's (im dreaming), keep the 10 or so bars also. They would have more people downtown and alot (not all) of the stuff they have downtown is currently unoccupied anyway or has hardly any customers it would bring in more taxes to the city by bringing more of the people from West dowtown.

They should also declare the neighborhoods just north and east downtown as blighted, seriously I have biked through some of these areas and they are the reason government's can excercise eminent domain in the first-place. Those homes almost have a shack like appearence and are wood-framed anyway, they have few brick homes in this city also, and not a brick home ive seen in these blighted neighborhoods.

[F-Misthebest]

Yeah, that and the small scandenavian furniture store and a few thrift shops are the botiques I guess. Fargo's retail sector downtown is less then that our sister city in the state to our South and once you take the alcohol serving establishments out its about the same as Grand Forks. The restaurants downtown usually are waiting for people to come in and buy something to eat!! The Great Northern and that other restaurant next to the half-block long plywooded building sure did well didn't they because they closed!!


I can sure see the crowds of birds in downtown Fargo but I see few people.

Just out of curiousity what is your definition of "plenty" and "alot" of people walking around downtown? It can mean different things to different people, some say one is plenty others say 1,000 is plenty.

In my experience downtown it seems like usually other then cars and lots of then trying to get from Interstate 94 to North Fargo after a day of shopping at the mall!! and you see hardly anybody walking around like one would see in other cities. Sure is great walking on a street that people are driving past at 40 mph to whip the dirt and debris that they dont clean up!!

I think what would make Downtown Fargo nice is a SuperTarget and Border's, keep the 10 or so bars also they would have more people downtown and alot of stuff they have downtown is currently unoccupied anyway or has hardly any customers it would bring in more taxes to the city by bringing more of the people from West dowtown.

They should also declare the neighborhoods just north and east downtown as blighted, seriously I have biked through some of these areas and they are the reason government's can excercise eminent domain in the first-place. Those homes almost have a shack like appearence and are wood-framed anyway, they have few brick homes in this city also, and not a brick home ive seen in these blighted neighborhoods.

NanoBison, I'm gonna let you deal with this one. Good Luck!:)

[F-Misthebest]

Yeah, that and the small scandenavian furniture store and a few thrift shops are the botiques I guess. Fargo's retail sector downtown is less then that of our sister city in the state to our South and once you take the alcohol serving establishments out its about the same as Grand Forks, which is really redevoloping their downtown fast just look at their paper. The Great Northern and that other restaurant next to the half-block long presently plywooded building sure did well didn't they because they closed!!


I can sure see the crowds of birds in downtown Fargo but I see few people.

Just out of curiousity what is your definition of "plenty" and "alot" of people walking around downtown? It can mean different things to different people, some say one is plenty others say 1,000 is plenty.

In my experience downtown it seems like usually other then cars and lots of them trying to get from Interstate 94 to North Fargo after a day of shopping at the mall!! and you see hardly anybody walking around like one would see in other cities. Sure is great walking on a street that people are driving past at 40 mph to whip the dirt and debris that the cities doesnt tend to clean up!!

I think what would make Downtown Fargo nice is a SuperTarget and Border's (im dreaming), keep the 10 or so bars also. They would have more people downtown and alot (not all) of the stuff they have downtown is currently unoccupied anyway or has hardly any customers it would bring in more taxes to the city by bringing more of the people from West dowtown.

They should also declare the neighborhoods just north and east downtown as blighted, seriously I have biked through some of these areas and they are the reason government's can excercise eminent domain in the first-place. Those homes almost have a shack like appearence and are wood-framed anyway, they have few brick homes in this city also, and not a brick home ive seen in these blighted neighborhoods.

NanoBison, I'm gonna let you deal with this one. Good Luck!:)

There's only one thing that I agree with. Huh. You said that downtown needs a nice SuperTarget. Maybe something nicer for a downtown. Duh. It's downtown. Maybe a Von Maur like a said in an earlier post. The one where I told everyone about my skyscraper idea for downtown.

[F-Misthebest]

Yeah, that and the small scandenavian furniture store and a few thrift shops are the botiques I guess. Fargo's retail sector downtown is less then that of our sister city in the state to our South and once you take the alcohol serving establishments out its about the same as Grand Forks, which is really redevoloping their downtown fast just look at their paper. The Great Northern and that other restaurant next to the half-block long presently plywooded building sure did well didn't they because they closed!!


I can sure see the crowds of birds in downtown Fargo but I see few people.

Just out of curiousity what is your definition of "plenty" and "alot" of people walking around downtown? It can mean different things to different people, some say one is plenty others say 1,000 is plenty.

In my experience downtown it seems like usually other then cars and lots of them trying to get from Interstate 94 to North Fargo after a day of shopping at the mall!! and you see hardly anybody walking around like one would see in other cities. Sure is great walking on a street that people are driving past at 40 mph to whip the dirt and debris that the cities doesnt tend to clean up!!

I think what would make Downtown Fargo nice is a SuperTarget and Border's (im dreaming), keep the 10 or so bars also. They would have more people downtown and alot (not all) of the stuff they have downtown is currently unoccupied anyway or has hardly any customers it would bring in more taxes to the city by bringing more of the people from West dowtown.

They should also declare the neighborhoods just north and east downtown as blighted, seriously I have biked through some of these areas and they are the reason government's can excercise eminent domain in the first-place. Those homes almost have a shack like appearence and are wood-framed anyway, they have few brick homes in this city also, and not a brick home ive seen in these blighted neighborhoods.

NanoBison, I'm gonna let you deal with this one. Good Luck!:)

There's only one thing that I agree with. Huh. You said that downtown needs a nice SuperTarget. Maybe something nicer for a downtown. Duh. It's downtown. Maybe a Von Maur like a said in an earlier post. The one where I told everyone about my skyscraper idea for downtown.

Sorry, I thought that the first post didnt' go through.

[NanoBison]

Yeah, that and the small scandenavian furniture store and a few thrift shops are the botiques I guess. Fargo's retail sector downtown is less then that of our sister city in the state to our South and once you take the alcohol serving establishments out its about the same as Grand Forks, which is really redevoloping their downtown fast just look at their paper. The Great Northern and that other restaurant next to the half-block long presently plywooded building sure did well didn't they because they closed!!


I can sure see the crowds of birds in downtown Fargo but I see few people.

Just out of curiousity what is your definition of "plenty" and "alot" of people walking around downtown? It can mean different things to different people, some say one is plenty others say 1,000 is plenty.

In my experience downtown it seems like usually other then cars and lots of them trying to get from Interstate 94 to North Fargo after a day of shopping at the mall!! and you see hardly anybody walking around like one would see in other cities. Sure is great walking on a street that people are driving past at 40 mph to whip the dirt and debris that the cities doesnt tend to clean up!!

I think what would make Downtown Fargo nice is a SuperTarget and Border's (im dreaming), keep the 10 or so bars also. They would have more people downtown and alot (not all) of the stuff they have downtown is currently unoccupied anyway or has hardly any customers it would bring in more taxes to the city by bringing more of the people from West dowtown.

They should also declare the neighborhoods just north and east downtown as blighted, seriously I have biked through some of these areas and they are the reason government's can excercise eminent domain in the first-place. Those homes almost have a shack like appearence and are wood-framed anyway, they have few brick homes in this city also, and not a brick home ive seen in these blighted neighborhoods.


Hello again,

I see we are all online tonight at the same time. How ironic huh?
Anyways, to begin, when you say Fargo's downtown retail is weaker than our sister city in the state to the south, what are you referring to? Wahpeton? In terms of Grand Forks developing their downtown, well, truthfully there really isn't that much space and property that has to be developed. If you take a look at Aerial Photos of the two downtown areas of Grand Forks-East Grand Forks and Fargo-Moorhead, you can easily see the actual land area of the two downtowns is significantly different. The FM downtown area is easily approaching 3 times the size of the Grand Forks one. So if they were even doing just a little bit of development, in a small area, that would appear to be larger than if it was happening in say FM downtown.

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree once again with you Midwesterner. You seem to think that the national chains and big box retailers are what’s really going to set downtown Fargo apart from every other downtown area. You seem to think it’s success depends on it. While, yes, as the number of people in the downtown core continues to increase, I would expect to see some big box retailers setup shop in the vicinity, like with what is happening in downtown Moorhead with Walgreens building a new store (getting closed to finished too…). But, in my opinion, to copy that which is happening on 13th and 45th and every other American suburban community is not what a downtown is about. It’s about commercial services. It’s about Centralized government services (like our library, city hall, courthouses, police, fire, etc…). It’s about a central place of commerce (banks, legal firms, tech companies, service based companies). It’s not about building a retail giant. Yes, I want to see retail in the downtown core and a decent amount, but it should be the types that your not going to find at West Acres, or Osgood, or the Brandt Development, or the Las Vegas development. It’s about the A.K.A., The Red Shoe, Bone Appetit, Catherine's Collectibles, Christian Eggert Violins, Lena. K’s, Old Broadway, HoDo, Fort Knox, Juano’s, Monte’s, One World Imports, Uptown Cottage, Fantasy’s, The Broken Axe, etc… It’s about the places where the general public can congregate, the Plains Museum, the Rourke Museum, the Hjemkomst Center, Island Park, etc. Downtown is meant to be a destination and central business district. Any retail that would spin-off from that would be icing on the cake. What downtown needs is originality and the rest will follow.

In terms of the areas that should be blighted. I’m not sure why you said directly east of downtown. Directly east would be the Red River. If you’re talking directly east of downtown Moorhead, there’s nothing there. They tore down the two grain elevators to make way for commercial developments. For the area directly north of downtown are you referring to the area north of MeritCare, or the line of houses between the hospital and the train-tracks. If it’s the later, then yes, they should be torn down. If it’s farther north, your talking maybe 1 or 2 homes in certain areas that might need some work, but don’t necessarily need to be torn down. I was driving around today around 13th and the other areas you we’re talking about. I saw a few FOR SALE signs, but not as many as you made it out to be. I also saw a few SOLD signs. Go figure huh?

Anyways, if you’re looking for the areas of town that need the most work in terms of fixing up some run down houses or those that are simply past the point of fixing, you need to drive along the areas right next to NDSU. There are several beautiful homes, but they are the exception. There are many homes that have been housing students for several decades with no upkeep being done on them. I don’t blame the students, because it’s not their responsibility to fix the places up. I hold the renters accountable. Those bastards know they can pack 6 students into a 3 bedroom home, charge $1,200/month (whereas a normal person would scuff at the concept of more than $250/month if you saw the property you’d be renting) on the place and never have to worry, because they know the students keep coming back every year. They also know and take advantage of the fact that the students are willing to pay that price for the convenience of living that close to campus. Many of those houses are becoming eyesores for the campus area, which overall is beautiful. What they should do, is raze a couple of blocks of those homes leading towards the downtown area. Turn it into a sort of Dinkytown. Put some clubs/bars/hangouts, and other student services in high demand (books, laundry, etc….). That way you’d have a connectivity from NDSU to the downtown. I realize that there are families in there that consider that area their home, but I fear as NDSU continues to grow, them getting pushed out by newer developments will be the norm.

The other of town is directly WEST of downtown along 5th Ave N, going towards 15th St. That’s not exactly a nice part of town. I went looking for a home to rent with a friend for college. It was a great deal, $400/month for a 3 bedroom home. We’ll we drove into that area and once we saw the house, it’s door was torn off, hanging on it’s last hinge, the windows were barred up, the yard looked like it hadn’t been cut in over a year, and their was 3-4 junked vehicles in the backyard, and we could have swarn that they were bullet holes in the entry way of the house. Anyways, we didn’t stop to look, we kept driving on. Note to those not familiar with Fargo, this example is an exception to the norm. You usually don’t find this unless you look very hard.

If retail develops it should be at the first couple of floors of several new high-rise towers that I hope become a reality down the road. In terms of parking, the city is going to desperately need to build some more ramps, because parking will become more and more of a problem. The city should have deals too for shoppers that get discounts on the parking when they shop downtown. With as much as you say there’s plenty of parking Midwesterner, I remember reading about and listening to several hundred people complaining about the lack of parking downtown, when they proposed the CityScapes Plaza/ Arena development. So if we do have plenty of parking, any new development will consume that instantly, the way other individuals were indicating.

But Midwesterner, other than that, most of the downtown area is fine in my honest opinion and will only continue to grow and prosper, in the right direction, not towards suburban big box retailer normalcy.

I look forward to hearing your, what seems to be, improving stance on downtown. (you even offered an idea in your last post.... ;) )

[Midwesterner19]

Sorry, I meant the West (west of university) of Downtown and not East.

Anyway, it seems like a majority of the country's downtowns that are successful have alot of chain stores in them. This seems cold but national retailers just tend to usually do things better then locally owned ones because they are using successful business models rather then experimenting. I bike around these places you mention and they just dont seem to have many people inside at all shopping at all, but if they stay open with a small customer base more power to them I guess. I guess even though the number of people who come downtown to shop is very low those who come downtown to shop are big customers which is great.

I dont see the area south of NDSU changing at all, they have alot of blight but it doesnt get truely blighted enough for a government to declare eminent domain until you get to 7th and 8th avenue north and those are 35 mph roads. Entertainment corridors cant work along 35mph thoroughfares.

19th avenue north is in decent shape, just not that many customers unless they offer things like 99 cent waffle cones and 2 for 1 expresso's. Any new devolopment on the North Side should be 19th avenue North. It seems like to draw customers though in that area they have to big promotions such as those 99 cent waffle cones.

Eminent domain I doubt would go over as big here in ND as is it does in Ohio where middle-class attractive neighborhoods are being delcared blighted to build lofts.

13th avenue south is in decent shape, those homes are very small but that area has more of a retiree demographic, its north of their until Main when the run-down homes start to become very common.

[F-Misthebest]

You sound like someone who only shops at the Wal-Mart Supercenters and never ever would shop at a place like Uptown Cottage. Just saying. And please just at least say one good thing about downtown Fargo-Moorhead. Maybe on a thread entitled "Fargo-Moorhead developments information" you could say some good things about the area. It's a great place to live and work in, not to mention visit. Please, say some good comments about the Fargo-Moorhead area. And yes, we are a little larger then Sioux Falls.:tup:

[Midwesterner19]

You sound like someone who only shops at the Wal-Mart Supercenters and never ever would shop at a place like Uptown Cottage. Just saying. And please just at least say one good thing about downtown Fargo-Moorhead. Maybe on a thread entitled "Fargo-Moorhead developments information" you could say some good things about the area. It's a great place to live and work in, not to mention visit. Please, say some good comments about the Fargo-Moorhead area. And yes, we are a little larger then Sioux Falls.:tup:

You know I wish they did have alot of progress being made in Downtown Fargo, I wish it was vibrant. I live near downtown and believe me I try to avoid it as much as possible because it just has nothing to offer as opposed to West Acres or the 13th avenue corridor past 32nd. It seems like even the strip-mall at 13th avenue and 25th street is only half occupied also that just goes to show how this city is moving west, away from downtown.

I think the corridor between NP and 4th along Broadway Ave has potential, they have two martini bars (I dont go to them, too expensive for me) and several other taverns also that can be kinda fun on Friday and Saturday nights when college is in session in the Fall and Spring. Anything outside of Broadway ave area downtown is parking lots and "for lease" signs though.

[F-Misthebest]

You know I wish they did have alot of progress being made in Downtown Fargo, I wish it was vibrant. I live near downtown and believe me I try to avoid it as much as possible because it just has nothing to offer as opposed to West Acres or the 13th avenue corridor past 32nd. It seems like even the strip-mall at 13th avenue and 25th street is only half occupied also that just goes to show how this city is moving west, away from downtown.

I think the corridor between NP and 4th along Broadway Ave has potential, they have two martini bars (I dont go to them, too expensive for me) and several other taverns also that can be kinda fun on Friday and Saturday nights when college is in session in the Fall and Spring. Anything outside of Broadway ave area downtown is parking lots and "for lease" signs though.

Hi, if you do not like downtown Fargo because it's "not vibrant" why do you live near downtown. Move closer to West Acres if you LOVE it so much. Downtowns are supposed to have more government buildings, banks, museums, etc. as NanoBison said. Downtowns are supposed to have some busisness and for Fargo's population (and Fargo's population alone) of 102,254 it has just what it needs if not more.:D :D :D

[Midwesterner19]

Hi, if you do not like downtown Fargo because it's "not vibrant" why do you live near downtown. Move closer to West Acres if you LOVE it so much. Downtowns are supposed to have more government buildings, banks, museums, etc. as NanoBison said. Downtowns are supposed to have some busisness and for Fargo's population (and Fargo's population alone) of 102,254 it has just what it needs if not more.:D :D :D

A good solution to downtown lack of vibrancy issue is for an Applebee's, Paradiso or Buffalo Wild wings to move in, each of those restaurants in the surbubs have more people in the evening shopping/eating then the whole downtown area of Fargo have shopping/eating.

The plains art museum is more a wedding hall masquerading as a museum, they have a good cafe though.

[F-Misthebest]

Actually, an Applebee's and a Starbuck's is going into downtown Moorhead as part of their new downtown plan. I think it is pretty cool.

[Midwesterner19]

These places (Starbucks and Applebees) cant come soon enough because the lack of vibrancy is amazing here with the excpetion of a few hours on Friday and Saturday nights when colleges are in session.

I was just reading these posts on all these high-rises that another forumer is talking about, these ideas come up all the time. Its funny because they cant even keep the roads in good shape or sidwalks clean downtown of course the west side is has first-rate roads and is extremely clean!

I moved here in 2004 and most (even tiny) projects they attempt to build here (on the east side north of I-94) requires tons of TIF financing because not even the devolopers in my opinion have much faith on the east side of this city with-out the city issuing massive subsidies which have caused a property tax crisis.

Besides, what is the last time worker built a 10 story plus building downtown by the looks of it probubly decades ago.

[NanoBison]

There has not been another building 10 storeys or above built since the 19 storey radisson was built back in 1989 (I think that was the year). We've built several tall structures like the Multiband Tower, but that is only 7 floors. The CityScapes proposal was to be an 11 storey tower. But that had problems from the get go.

[NanoBison]

By the way, I just drove past the Old Kmart building on 13th. It has a Roer's Semi in front of it, two large trash dumpsters, a payloader, etc... It looks like they've begun working on that building, or are at least getting ready to do so.

[SmileyBoy]

here's my 1/50th of a dollar: (I was at work all day.:D )

I think downtown Fargo compared to other cities of its general size, like Green Bay, Cedar Rapids, Lincoln, Sioux Falls, etc. is doing just FINE. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's doing BETTER than most JUST YET, but with a little more work, it can definitely become that way. I think though that it's absolutely crazy to think that downtown Fargo is doing worse off than other comparable cities. And even Grand Forks?? Midwesterner, have you ever even been to downtown Grand Forks?? There's no comparison whatsoever. Downtown GF is PATHETIC. There's no one there!! There's no pedestrian activity, there's TONS of empty storefronts, and lots of office vacancies. I believe that Downtown Fargo is a little more of a historic, yet upscale version of downtown Sioux Falls. I think as city, we're very comparable with our peers in most categories. Some categories we're a little behind (like homeownership and mean income), and in some categories we're ahead (like the labour force and economy). This relationship we have with our peer cities of being very comparable and competitive should not be mistaken with "Falling behind the Joneses". As places like SF and Cedar Rapids improve, so does F-M improve. We already have some of the right people in place in our city government to make downtown an even better place than it is now. Let's just see what happens in the future. Change does not happen overnight. It happens over years and years. I mean, look at downtown 5-6 years ago.

[F-Misthebest]

By the way, I just drove past the Old Kmart building on 13th. It has a Roer's Semi in front of it, two large trash dumpsters, a payloader, etc... It looks like they've begun working on that building, or are at least getting ready to do so.

Yah, on the doors of the building it says that the Burlington Coat Factory is coming soon. That's exciting!!!!!!!!!! Also in front of the Lowes they are building something else. It kind of looks like another restaurant. If it the Convention and Visitors Beauro will have to update again.

[Midwesterner19]

here's my 1/50th of a dollar: (I was at work all day.:D )

I think downtown Fargo compared to other cities of its general size, like Green Bay, Cedar Rapids, Lincoln, Sioux Falls, etc. is doing just FINE. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's doing BETTER than most JUST YET, but with a little more work, it can definitely become that way. I think though that it's absolutely crazy to think that downtown Fargo is doing worse off than other comparable cities. And even Grand Forks?? Midwesterner, have you ever even been to downtown Grand Forks?? There's no comparison whatsoever. Downtown GF is PATHETIC. There's no one there!! There's no pedestrian activity, there's TONS of empty storefronts, and lots of office vacancies. I believe that Downtown Fargo is a little more of a historic, yet upscale version of downtown Sioux Falls. I think as city, we're very comparable with our peers in most categories. Some categories we're a little behind (like homeownership and mean income), and in some categories we're ahead (like the labour force and economy). This relationship we have with our peer cities of being very comparable and competitive should not be mistaken with "Falling behind the Joneses". As places like SF and Cedar Rapids improve, so does F-M improve. We already have some of the right people in place in our city government to make downtown an even better place than it is now. Let's just see what happens in the future. Change does not happen overnight. It happens over years and years. I mean, look at downtown 5-6 years ago.

Why arent you more postivie on Grand Forks, they have alot to offer with a 13,000 student university in a city of around 50,000 people. College students make up 25% of the people, thats a big college town and have read their paper they seem to have alot of good plans.

I think that was a very accurate way of portraying the current condition of Fargo that you just talked about

I dont think Fargo "Is Falling behind the Joneses" its got a strong economy with an unemployment rate of about 3 percent vs. the national average of about 5 percent. Wages are lower here then other mid-western cities of comperable size though and the cost of living by midwestern standards of cities of comperable size is about average.

You and I both agree downtown Fargo is about on the same level as peer cities. I would say the majority of neighborhoods in Fargo though lag-behind a majority of places of similar size as far as being clean and well-set up. I would rate Fargo as having very attractive suburbs though.

[SmileyBoy]

Some more vision for downtown...

Sharing visions for downtown
By Joe Whetham, The Forum
Published Friday, June 02, 2006

Fargo-Moorhead officials, business owners and community members met Thursday night to discuss their visions for each city’s downtown, including what they want in the next five years.

The Metropolitan Council of Governments hosted the first of at least three public meetings to evaluate its F-M downtown framework plan.

MetroCOG developed separate downtown plans for Fargo and Moorhead in 2000, although officials have essentially treated them as one, said Dave Anderson, president of the Downtown Community Partnership.

Several projects outlined in the plan have been completed or nearly finished in the past six years, notably the Main Avenue bridge, the North Dakota State University architecture building and the Fargo-Moorhead quiet zone.

MetroCOG, which hired Short Elliott Hendrickson Inc. – a Minneapolis-based urban design consulting firm – for the project, began the first step of updating the plan in April.

A draft is expected in August, and a final version will be headed to city leaders and downtown communities in November, Anderson said.

The purpose of Thursday’s meeting was to evaluate the plan, spur ideas for new projects and outline challenges for each city.

“The idea from the very start was to put our heads together,” Anderson said.

Those who attended were split into five teams of six to 10 people. Each team answered questions drafted by consultants, including “What’s changed in the past five years?” and “What do you want to see in the next five years?”

Ideas included:

- Building a town square at the US Bank plaza and a performing arts center in Fargo.

- Consolidating the two sets of train tracks.

- Developing riverfront property and creating better communications between Fargo and Moorhead.

- Developing the empty space along the east side of Broadway in Fargo.

- Improving flood control by erecting a permanent dike in Fargo, which could be integrated into housing developments.

- Providing more parking in the Fargo and Moorhead downtowns.

Randy Thorson, owner of Old Broadway in downtown Fargo, said the first priority in developing downtowns should be parking.

“I think all the ideas and thoughts they had were good,” Thorson said. “But parking should be the first priority, and everything else will follow.”

Not having sufficient parking will slow down the development of downtowns, he said.

[NanoBison]

Why arent you more postivie on Grand Forks, they have alot to offer with a 13,000 student university in a city of around 50,000 people. College students make up 25% of the people, thats a big college town and have read their paper they seem to have alot of good plans.


Would that be why their students head down here once they graduate? Becuase Grand Forks has so much to offer?

I think I've figured out what you've declared as a "Big College City". You need a high ratio of students to the general population. I don't think students enjoy towns like that. They're only there for the school. Then they get out of Dodge when their done. I'd say the Fargo-Moorhead area is, by far, more of a college town than Grand Forks. You don't need to have a HIGH RATIO of students. You just need A LARGE NUMBER of them. We've got somewhere around 25,000. Grand Forks, has about 13,000. We've also got more than three times the population of the Grand Forks metro area. The Grand Forks metro is losing population at an alarming rate. We all thought it was going to stop a few years after the flood. It's nearly a decade later and the problem is still there. They lost another 1,500 over the last 5 years.

Everything in terms of success to you appears to be in the form of a ratio. In your case, Grand Forks is more of a college town than Fargo Moorhead. More than the MSP area. More than Boston. It just seems that your perfect college town would have a population of 1000 people and 25,000 students. In that case, as Grand Forks continues to decline in population, that ratio will only get better. So according to your definition, Grand Forks is doing great!

Now I see how you are thinking.... :koko:

Grand Forks is a welfare city and UND is a welfare campus. They ironically built the Alerus Center after everything else was covered by FEMA funds. Now UND just received $18,000,000 for a parking ramp??? The only reason, from your thinking that Grand Forks has alot to offer, is becuase everyone else is paying for it...

Kind of like the West Fargo - Fargo situation... but I won't go into that again...

[NanoBison]

Smiley, next time they have one of those meetings planned, let me know in advance so I can attend. Either you or I should go and let the ideas pour into the rooms. I hope they don't limit ideas on the next one to "what do you want to see in 5 years?".

[F-Misthebest]

NanoBison, thank you so much for getting the point that Fargo is a good place. Midwesterner just can't see to get it. I'm glad we have you on the forum.
~Thanks~

Smiley, that's really cool about the that meeting. I hope one of you (yourself or NanoBison) could go and tell all of your great ideas. If you go, some of those dreams could turn to reality. You never know. (that was pretty corny)

Midwesterner19, there are some very nice neighborhoods old neighboorhoods in Fargo. If you disagree (which you will) with that, there is a proposed company to buy these houses remodle them and sell them for more money. This could really turn the ghetto into something really nice.:D

[SmileyBoy]

I found a really good website for the huge new Brandt development.

http://www.urbanplainsbybrandt.com

Chock full of goodies.:D

[Paintballer1708]

Midwesterner19: You know I wish they did have alot of progress being made in Downtown Fargo, I wish it was vibrant. I live near downtown and believe me I try to avoid it as much as possible because it just has nothing to offer as opposed to West Acres or the 13th avenue corridor past 32nd. It seems like even the strip-mall at 13th avenue and 25th street is only half occupied also that just goes to show how this city is moving west, away from downtown.

I dont know much about Fargo. But i have heard alot of good things about it. You dont hear to many good things coming out of North Dakota these days. But Fargo and its metropolitan area are growing at really good rates. If a metro is growing at good rates like that then they must be attractive to people. Fargo's suburbs arent just growing but the city itself is too. I got curious and checked out the city of Fargo's population growth. Fargo itself is adding a little more than 20,000 people a decade. And thats good for a city its size. I bet Fargo was the one who brought North Dakota out of negative population growth. Now North Dakota is growing, at small rates. But that will change soon. With Fargo growing the way that it is.

[F-Misthebest]

I dont know much about Fargo. But i have heard alot of good things about it. You dont hear to many good things coming out of North Dakota these days. But Fargo and its metropolitan area are growing at really good rates. If a metro is growing at good rates like that then they must be attractive to people. Fargo's suburbs arent just growing but the city itself is too. I got curious and checked out the city of Fargo's population growth. Fargo itself is adding a little more than 20,000 people a decade. And thats good for a city its size. I bet Fargo was the one who brought North Dakota out of negative population growth. Now North Dakota is growing, at small rates. But that will change soon. With Fargo growing the way that it is.

Thank you for saying that.:worship: We needed some out-of-towner to say another good thing about Fargo.

Midwesterner, the world does not rotate around Fargo. Just to clarify!

[F-Misthebest]

I would really like to see a high-rise in downtown Moorhead. This won't happen for a while but when their downtown gets back on their feet, which they are well on their way. If they pick up the rest of the city it will be a lot more appealing to a developer. I have an idea that won't happen but its just an idea. When the population reaches...55,000 I think they need to tear down the M&H and build a Hyatt Hotel that is 50 meters tall (the same height as the Bank of the West). If Moorhead is 55,000 Fargo would be around 136,000 people alone. I believe that West Fargo will peak around 30,000-40,000 so it won't be bigger then Moorhead. I don't want West Fargo to be bigger that's just weird. Dilworth would probably be around 7,000-10,000. Not quite there yet. I believe the exact population now is 5,563 from 3,001 in 2000.

Well, if we have this many people in the metro area that means we will have more companies, attractions, restaurants, and other things that tourists and/or people on business want to have. Downtown is doing well and I think will be a decent sized business center for the area. This means more people would want to stay there. So another hotel would do well, especially a nice one. Well it's just an idea and I would like your comments (preferably not Midwesterner's)

[Midwesterner19]

I would really like to see a high-rise in downtown Moorhead. This won't happen for a while but when their downtown gets back on their feet, which they are well on their way. If they pick up the rest of the city it will be a lot more appealing to a developer. I have an idea that won't happen but its just an idea. When the population reaches...55,000 I think they need to tear down the M&H and build a Hyatt Hotel that is 50 meters tall (the same height as the Bank of the West). If Moorhead is 55,000 Fargo would be around 136,000 people alone. I believe that West Fargo will peak around 30,000-40,000 so it won't be bigger then Moorhead. I don't want West Fargo to be bigger that's just weird. Dilworth would probably be around 7,000-10,000. Not quite there yet. I believe the exact population now is 5,563 from 3,001 in 2000.

Well, if we have this many people in the metro area that means we will have more companies, attractions, restaurants, and other things that tourists and/or people on business want to have. Downtown is doing well and I think will be a decent sized business center for the area. This means more people would want to stay there. So another hotel would do well, especially a nice one. Well it's just an idea and I would like your comments (preferably not Midwesterner's)

Why is it all about population?, this area in alot of years has domestic-outmigration. Any new population increase would mean the birth rate would have to be amazingly high to make up for the outmigration which occured in 2005 and probubly will contiunue to do so.


I mean if its all growth in the suburban low-density areas. I think alot of the new devolopment posted are major projects set in stone they arent grandiose ideas that are probubly not gonna happen for decades.

There is no rule that once a small city reaches 55,000 people a major new high-rise hotel is gonna be built. 55,000 people is considered a small suburb of most cities.

Fargo/Moorhead is a small metro area with 185,000 people MSA and 210,000 people CMSA. Even if it were 1,000% bigger it would still have 30 metropolitan areas larger then it.

[NanoBison]

But it wouldn't exactly be small-fries anymore would it ... ?

I'm bbq'n baby back ribs right now. I'll get back online after dinner and reply to a few..... Yum.....


Ribfest June 7th-10th. I'll be there every day for the lunch specials.

[F-Misthebest]

Why is it all about population?, this area in alot of years has domestic-outmigration. Any new population increase would mean the birth rate would have to be amazingly high to make up for the outmigration which occured in 2005 and probubly will contiunue to do so.


I mean if its all growth in the suburban low-density areas. I think alot of the new devolopment posted are major projects set in stone they arent grandiose ideas that are probubly not gonna happen for decades.

There is no rule that once a small city reaches 55,000 people a major new high-rise hotel is gonna be built. 55,000 people is considered a small suburb of most cities.

Fargo/Moorhead is a small metro area with 185,000 people MSA and 210,000 people CMSA. Even if it were 1,000% bigger it would still have 30 metropolitan areas larger then it.

You said that you are not being negative about Fargo. You should not lie. You are the most negative person about Fargo I've ever met! Population is not everything. It makes a small percent of what a good city needs to be. A city could be the size of 2,000 people and losing people and has a good amount of affordable housing and a nice atmosphere it still can be good. With all do respect, be quiet please and say some good things about Fargo-Moorhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I have to remember that it is your opinion and this is my opinion. You think Fargo isn't all that great, I do. Sure there are some things wrong with the area, but it is not a horrendous place to live. It is your opinion.

I can't wait for you to say something NanoBison.

[Paintballer1708]

Thank you for saying that. We needed some out-of-towner to say another good thing about Fargo.

Midwesterner, the world does not rotate around Fargo. Just to clarify!

Yes, i have heard alot of good things about Fargo lately. And google it up you find and read positive things about the city and its metro.

Why is it all about population?, this area in alot of years has domestic-outmigration. Any new population increase would mean the birth rate would have to be amazingly high to make up for the outmigration which occured in 2005 and probubly will contiunue to do so.

Because population is important to local growth. If you have a raising population that means your area is attractive to out of towners. I dont know where most of the people moving to Fargo are from but it cant just be from birth rates. I mean come on over 20,000 new babies in just Fargo alone, leaving out the metro population. Yes Fargo and North Dakota have had its fair share of outmigration. But that is changing. Not only is Fargo growing but so is North Dakota. No longer is North Dakota the state that is dropping in population. States like NY and Mass. have taken that position. Here check it out. Some day i want to head to Fargo. And check this city out. With all this positive news coming out its a must see.

http://www.census.gov/popest/gallery/maps/numchg_2004_2005.html

[F-Misthebest]

^Thank you so much that someone who has never been to Fargo thinks so highly of it. And thank you for disagreeing with Midwesterner19. None of the Fargo people are too fond of him. Join the club.:D :D :cheers: :D :D But seriously, Midwesterner isn't a bad person he just has a different opinion.

[F-Misthebest]

Smiley, do you know when construction will begin on the new Menards and Home Depot in Moorhead? I was just wondering. I'm a big fan of Moorhead because I lived there for eight and a half years. I just recently moved to Horace last summer. I like it there. One acre lot, next to the Sheyenne, beautiful. Oh, and the turkeys are plentiful. Look at me with my humungous vocabulary.:haha: :koko: :haha:

I'm also looking forward to the new Qdoba and Starbucks in the Holiday Center. That development needs it.

I found out that Fargo was number two in the list of "Best small metro areas to do business in". Sioux Falls was number one and Las Crues, New Mexico was three. I just thought that was some interesting information to share.

Also, I would like your comments to what I posted previously. It is the first post on this page (10). I think it's a good idea and I would like to know what you think of it.

Smiley, would it be okay if I did a photo thread of Fargo-Moorhead as well? If not, that is just hunkey dorey. I think I would take some of the downtown, the universities, the bison, and some of the more urbanized areas too.

[Midwesterner19]

I'm also looking forward to the new Qdoba and Starbucks in the Holiday Center. That development needs it.

I found out that Fargo was number two in the list of "Best small metro areas to do business in". Sioux Falls was number one and Las Crues, New Mexico was three. I just thought that was some interesting information to share.
too.

I love Starbucks, they do it so much better then locally owned retailers in my opinion. Sure local places try with atmosphere, but Starbucks in my opinion has great coffee and its a good way to finish a burrito at Qdoba, although I wish they had Chipotle

I can see why it ranked so highly on being one of best small metros to business in
considering the median weekly wage is 41 dollars a week lower then Jackson (Hinds County) Misissippi (Bureau of Labor statistics). I am sure rather then paying Jackson, Mississippi or Birmingham, Alabama wages people would rather set-up shop in Fargo where the wages are lower. I mean when companies with a thousand employees can save 41 dollars a week on an employee the are gonna go to where that savings is.

Also, considering the tax subsidies Fargo gives to business I am sure with the small number of housing units here that would cause the business friendly rating to increase. I know alot of other forumers have been talking about the fact they think this city will have no problem having 5 branches of major corperations set up shop here, that would require another tax increase for subsidies.

Fargo is at a point now where the talk of the town is all about property taxes. The mayoral election about a week from now and the city commision seat elections are all about property taxes.

It looks the sales tax rate will go up a penny and a half, that would pay sales tax rates at 7.5%.

Paying an 7.5% premium on clothes purchases in Fargo as opposed to two miles away is not a way too attract more retail here.

[F-Misthebest]

I think Fargo is a great place to do business. Even Moorhead. Before you know it there will be major headquarters in the area. I really hope some more businesses come in like IBM and create many high paying jobs for new young couples to work at. Wouldn't that be great. You and your spouse are newlyweds, your early 20's, you move to Fargo, get a good high-paying job, and buy a nice house in east Fargo by the river or in Rose Creek. By the way, Rose Creek is one of the fastest growing developments in Fargo (Midwesterner, it's in the east side. Go Figure). You could be a young, well-off, couple that lives in a hip town.:D

[NanoBison]

I don't believe the sales tax is going to go up after the election Midwesterner. I think people are smart enough to understand that the proposed tax from Sinner is nothing more than a work around. It won't solve problems, and in my opinion, will hurt retailers. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by that man who once ran our state. I would encourage you and tell you to encourage everyone else you know to vote NO on that measure in the upcoming elections. The state itself should be responsible for taking care of education, and lately they haven't been doing their share with K-12 or Higher Education. Even when we have a $200 million+ surplus in the coffers. Use PART of that money to lower the costs of education.

Now in terms of property assessments, I'm not all that certain on how the entire process works exactly. I'm not sure who should be responsible for it, whether its the people who live there or the developers who build there. But it should be taken care of so we can continue with growth.

Does anyone know what the mayoral cadidates individual positions are on some of these issues? I'm probably going to go with Swenson, so far based on what I've heard around town, (DON'T get me wrong, I'm going to research it before the election, just telling you now who I'd vote for if I had to choose today). Why? (Please everyone correct me on these if I'm wrong so I can tell the people I talk with the same things.... I can't believe the forum doesn't have like a table showing side-by-side comparisons...)

Well let's cover them :

J.J. Gordon : 22 years old....I don't want someone THAT young running my city. Period.

Richard Blair : 73 years old....top priority is the city's downtown skyway system...I love downtown, but that's small fries in terms of vision. He's like the Ralph Nader of the bunch.

Arlette Preston : 51 years old....makes the claim "and the city needs to cooperate with its neighbors", I thinks it's the other way around, the city needs to make sure it's neighbors don't pull the same $h1t that Horace recently pulled.

Dennis Walaker : 65 years old....LOTS of experience in the city and carried us through the flood of 97. Knows the inner workings and red tape to a T. However, I would figure someone who was worked with the city for 32 years, have the common sense not to destribute pamphlets for his mayoral runnings with the "City of Fargo" logo stamped on the front of them...Not cool. Not cool at all...

John Cosgriff : 53 years old.... 12 years on the city comission and always the guy who points out the things the other tend to ignore (including the mayor). I've seen them get into verbal (respectable) arguements and pull out the City Code to straighten it out. He stands up to developers like the Cityscapes Plan which is good, becuase he's looking out for the taxpayers. (I was initially for that plan, but after hearing him and others, I leant more towards unapproval). The con is, I think he may be TOO reserved on the developer thing and we may never get a big project in the city again if he takes the reigns. But he is on the NDSU Technology Incubators board of directors.


Finally,

Brad Swenson : 40 years old.... Some of the things he's concerned with are nothing new, GPS for Sex-Offenders, etc... but the guy is currently Chairman of the Board for the FargoMoorhead Chamber of Commerce, and also sits on the boards of the Northern Lights Council, the NDSU Alumni Association and the NDSU Research and Technology Park. His main concern seems to be job growth and higher paying jobs... "said Fargo’s economic future lies in its ability to create high-paying jobs in emerging areas of the economy."

So, when I take it into account, I think my choices would be :

Swenson
Cosgriff
Walaker
Preston
Blair
Gordon


Any thoughts? Nobody needs to slam me, like I said, I still need to do some more research on the matter. If you can convince me though to vote for someone else, please do...


On taxes, I think we should only have a 1% tax for city infrastructure, .5% for new developments (basically the fargodome tax) and then if we do elect to do another .5% tax it should be used for luring businesses to the Fargo area with encentive packages...not for subsidizing education (don't get me wrong, I think it's one of the most important things a person can have, but the state should be chipping in a little bit more...)

My Audience after reading that :
:slob: :slob: :slob: :slob: :slob:

[Midwesterner19]

I think Fargo is a great place to do business. Even By the way, Rose Creek is one of the fastest growing developments in Fargo (Midwesterner, it's in the east side. Go Figure). You could be a young, well-off, couple that lives in a hip town.:D

Yeah, Fargo thinks its a "hip town" LOL. I am sure with all these college students who grew up on farms without a store for 60 miles think its hip.

I dont see the hipness of Fargo with a majority of people driving Ford F-350 Quad-cabs, chain restaurants and the large families like what youd expect in a state like Utah.


Yep, Rose Creek is east but south its south Interstate 94.

South Fargo (south of Interstate 94) and West Fargo (west of Interstate 29) is growing fast. I expect "Rose Creek" to be growing fast.

[NanoBison]

Midwesterner, you're last post was `everything west growing fast, everything east losing`. Rose Creek is east. Or are you going to change your definitions on this too?

[Midwesterner19]

Midwesterner, you're last post was `everything west growing fast, everything east losing`. Rose Creek is east. Or are you going to change your definitions on this too?

"Rose Creek" is a fancy name the devolopers gave it to attract people into moving into the subdivision. "Rose Creek" is 6 miles south of downtown Fargo mainly along University.

Fargo south of Interstate 94 is growing fast, as is Western parts of Fargo.
The area North of Interstate 94 and South of 19th and West to Interstate 29 is losing population in a majority of the census tracts.

I still dont get what makes Fargo hip? I mean the chains here are the same all over, they have two bars for the primarily software engineers to hang out at, but thats doesnt make the town hip. Please tell what you think makes Fargo hip?

[SmileyBoy]

Actually Midwesterner, if you go to the City of Fargo website and look at the neighbouhood-by-neighbourhood stats for the city, you'll see that a vast majority of the city's neighbourhoods have grown in population from 2000 to 2004.

Here's a link if you don't believe me:D:

http://www.ci.fargo.nd.us/neighborhoods/

[F-Misthebest]

Sure the north is losing a little people, but that's why they are trying to develop it more up there.

If you don't think this town is "hip" or "good" please, make that move you were talking about earlier a reality. I don't think Fargo needs people like you to "dis" it all the live long day. So please, start saying some good things or move away, with all do respect. All righty then.

[NanoBison]

Midwesterner, are you sure you live in the Fargo-Moorhead area? If you do, is there a reason your always bringing us down man????

If the L.A. Times says "Fargo's Hip", then we must be. I'm not going to argue over that publication, since the best we have to offer is the Fargo Forum monopoly...here's the article.

http://trishymouse.net/fargo/Fargo%20Hip%20You%20Betcha.htm

Midwesterner, why do you even care about how hip Fargo is? You seem to be quite fine with your conventionality to your chain malls and big box retailers... Why don't you quite complaining and add something constructive to the efforts? You want something downtown? Then say so! Word spreads quickly and it's what developers and investors need to hear.

With those properties coming back on the tax roll in the next year or two, things should really start getting good... $8,000,000 in property shooting up to $34,000,000 is good in my books for any city ...

:tup:

[SmileyBoy]

Case in point:

Washington Neighbourhood (Just north of downtown) grew by 82 people from 2000 to 2004.

NDSU Neighbourhood grew by 66 people from 2000 to 2004.

Horace Mann (the shittiest neighbourhood in the city) even had a positive gain from 2000 to 2004, growing by 9 people.

Even Madison Neighbourhood (the 2nd shittiest) grew by 33 people.

Downtown Neighbourhood grew by 56 people (although that's most likely out of date - It's probably grown by more now).

Roosevelt Neigbourhood grew by 56 people also.

That's a gain of over 300 people in the so-called "bad" parts of town from 2000 to 2004.

And these are all neighbourhoods in North Fargo east of I-29 in the most LOW-END PART OF TOWN. And other neighbourhoods like Trollwood and Edgewood on the rich north side grew by a LOT more than that.

[NanoBison]

Man, everyone is on tonight...

[SmileyBoy]

Even the north side of town is gaining people. Look at the stats!!

[F-Misthebest]

Midwesterner, if you look at that link Smiley so graciously gave us,(hint hint Midwesterner) you can see that the North is losing a small amount of people. All together, probably around nine hundred people, but if you look at the south east part of town, according to your logic, it is growing at outstanding numbers. I mean look at Rose Creek, the fancy name, it grew 187%! But I'm sure that you will find all the negatives and post them because it's kind of a pattern. Why don't you try to change it or are you just not capable.:shrug:

[SmileyBoy]

Trollwood Neighbourhood grew by 212 people from 2000-2004. Longfellow, Northport and Edgewood neighbourhoods all broke even, and have the same number for 2000 and 2004.

North Fargo has grown by 514 people from 2000 to 2004. That's not a lot, and nothing compared to the south side of town, but it's growth.

[SmileyBoy]

Midwesterner, if you look at that link Smiley so graciously gave us,(hint hint Midwesterner) you can see that the North is losing a small amount of people. All together, probably around nine hundred people, but if you look at the south east part of town, according to your logic, it is growing at outstanding numbers. I mean look at Rose Creek, the fancy name, it grew 187%! But I'm sure that you will find all the negatives and post them because it's kind of a pattern. Why don't you try to change it or are you just not capable.:shrug:

The North Side is GAINING people!!!

[F-Misthebest]

Man, everyone is on tonight...

Yup.

Midwesterner, with all do respect, I would like to see how you are going to respond. Another way to put it, What Now!?:D:haha:

[F-Misthebest]

The North Side is GAINING people!!!

I was looking at the wrong thing.:( :)

[SmileyBoy]

I was looking at the wrong thing.:( :)

That's OK, no prob.:D

[NanoBison]

It's good to see growth, even when others (names withheld :rolleyes: ) don't seem to think so. Thanks Smiley for the links.

[F-Misthebest]

Well, I think we scared Midwesterner away. I guess he decided to look at another thread instead of being proven incorrect. With all do respect.

[F-Misthebest]

It's good to see growth, even when others (names withheld :rolleyes: ) don't seem to think so. Thanks Smiley for the links.

Jee, I wonder who that could be.:shrug: :D

[SmileyBoy]

Jee, I wonder who that could be.:shrug: :D

OK, we don't want to ostracize people now...:whip: :whip: :whip:

[F-Misthebest]

Wow. We're on the 11th page already. Pretty impressive to all of the people you just look at it and don't post anything.

[F-Misthebest]

I'm glad you have a good heart. I'm preety out there. I guess when someone puts something or someone I like down, I can get pretty frustrated.

[SmileyBoy]

I'm glad you have a good heart. I'm preety out there. I guess when someone puts something or someone I like down, I can get pretty mean.

I have nothing wrong with Midwesterner contributing to this board, it's just that sometimes (actually, almost always:D ) he has the wrong info and stats. Fargo-Moorhead is in a lot better shape than Midwesterner thinks it is. I'm kind of a stats nut, so I always am looking for new news and stats and figures and such, so I'm pretty much on the ball. There's a lot of new info coming out every year, so it can be hard to keep track of all that.

[F-Misthebest]

I was just talking to my friend who keeps up on all the population stats and she said that there were almost 1,000,000 who visited from out of town last year. She said it's supposed to be over 1,000,000 people this year as the marathon continues to grow. Just some interesting facts.

[NanoBison]

It's understandable I usually don't agree with Midwesterner, but at least he keeps us in check, as in we are always looking up and verifying our information so it's exactly what it should be, not just saying YEAH FM!!!!! Even though I have no problem with people saying that.... :D

Don't get me wrong though, I do wonder if he actually enjoys living here. I would imagine, since I have a few friends living in places they don't like, that people like that would be pretty miserable with life on a daily basis... Hence the question, "why live there?". :koko:

[NanoBison]

I was just talking to my friend from the CVB and she said that there were almost 1,000,000 who visited from out of town last year. She said it's supposed to be over 1,000,000 people this year as the marathon continues to grow. Just some interesting facts.

This is definitely good to hear, especially in terms of our local economy. The more people from out of state we can get to spend money here, the better. I only expect this number to grow as more and more people find out it's an awesome place to live and visit. We may not be a Las Vegas, or Chicago (I love Chicago), but we have our hidden gems, you just have to know where to find them, or ask one of the locals (NOT midwesterner though...j/k... :D )

:notacrook:

[Midwesterner19]

Well, I go by 1990 to 2000 census official numbers and they show population declines in a vast majority of neighborhoods on the east north of Interstate 29.

2000 to 2004 numbers are not official census bureau numbers they are from the city planners. The census does not take population numbers by census tracts yearly, but they do give estimates for cities, counties and states every year.

For example, the city planning department (correct me if I am wrong) I believe says theirs 102,000 people living in Fargo and the Census Bureau official estimate for 2004 was just over 91,000 people.

So obviously the city planners numbers are 11,000 people over the census bureau's numbers.

I dont understand this would mean the census bureau's estimate is 10% below the actual cities population?

[F-Misthebest]

Yah, I just that was unbelievable. Almost 1,000,000 to the metro area of Fargo, North Dakota. Pmmmmmmp. North Dakota for crying out loud. But Fargo is doing well.

In another thread someone showed me that North Dakota is out of the negative numbers. That meaning North Dakota isn't losing people. The states that started to lose people were New York, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.

[Midwesterner19]

I have nothing wrong with Midwesterner contributing to this board, it's just that sometimes (actually, almost always:D ) he has the wrong info and stats. Fargo-Moorhead is in a lot better shape than Midwesterner thinks it is. I'm kind of a stats nut, so I always am looking for new news and stats and figures and such, so I'm pretty much on the ball. There's a lot of new info coming out every year, so it can be hard to keep track of all that.

I think Fargo is in good shape economically. The unemployment rate is low around 3%, which is well below the national average. Its a fairly diverse economy for being an area of 200,000 people.

The neighborhoods and infrastrcuture are not in good shape.

[F-Misthebest]

Well I think I'm gonna take off. Buh Bye. I'll post some more stuff tomorrow afternoon or evening. I'm driving back from Lincoln so I'll post later in the day.

[SmileyBoy]

Well, I go by 1990 to 2000 census official numbers and they show population declines in a vast majority of neighborhoods on the east north of Interstate 29.

2000 to 2004 numbers are not official census bureau numbers they are from the city planners. The census does not take population numbers by census tracts yearly, but they do give estimates for cities, counties and states every year.

For example, the city planning department (correct me if I am wrong) I believe says theirs 102,000 people living in Fargo and the Census Bureau official estimate for 2004 was just over 91,000 people.

So obviously the city planners numbers are 11,000 people over the census bureau's numbers.

I dont understand this would mean the census bureau's estimate is 10% below the actual cities population?

The Census Bureau is NOTORIOUS for undercounting when it comes to estimates. It's even worse in Canada for their actual censuses (censii??). I talked to the person at the city planning office who gave me the figure in my sig line, and he told me that the Census got it WAAAAYYY off in their 2004 estimate. He told me that they did their thorough homework, and that it was the most realistic number for May 1, 2005. He says the actual city governments of cities in the US are far more qualified to obtain estimates information than the Census Bureau is. Apparently the Census Bureau uses one type of formula in some certain categories and uses that for every single town and city in the US, regardless of situation when coming up with estimates.

I just wish the city of Fargo would actually PUBLISH these annual estimates for the public to see, and not hoard it away as some type of classified information.

[NanoBison]

That's the Sioux Falls post were someone else started questioning Midwesterner's figures.

Midwesterner, I don't necessarily go with exactly what the Census estimates are either, they usually ALWAYS tend to UNDERESTIMATE this region. We won't know the truth for another 4 years, but then again, even those figures can be questioned and argued and apparently changed if a city requests a re-evaluation of the numbers.

* modified : Damn Smiley, you beat me to it AGAIN!!! Go speedracer, Go speedracer Go!

[SmileyBoy]

The neighborhoods and infrastrcuture are not in good shape.

I'm gonna have to disagree on that. Our neighbourhoods are in a lot better shape than most cities I've been to. (Have you been to Grand Forks?? St. Cloud?? Duluth??) And our roads are in REALLY good condition. Solid concrete roads for almost all major arterials. I'm also noticing less potholes than when I moved here. Look at a city like Winnipeg. Now THAT'S horrible infrastructure.

[SmileyBoy]

That's the Sioux Falls post were someone else started questioning Midwesterner's figures.

Midwesterner, I don't necessarily go with exactly what the Census estimates are either, they usually ALWAYS tend to UNDERESTIMATE this region. We won't know the truth for another 4 years, but then again, even those figures can be questioned and argued and apparently changed if a city requests a re-evaluation of the numbers.

* modified : Damn Smiley, you beat me to it AGAIN!!! Go speedracer, Go speedracer Go!

I type 65 wpm. :D

[NanoBison]

Me too, but I'm always in another thread and your almost finished with your post by the time I hit "Add Reply". Anyways, Kudos to the speedy.

[BigTicket]

That's the Sioux Falls post were someone else started questioning Midwesterner's figures.

Midwesterner, I don't necessarily go with exactly what the Census estimates are either, they usually ALWAYS tend to UNDERESTIMATE this region. We won't know the truth for another 4 years, but then again, even those figures can be questioned and argued and apparently changed if a city requests a re-evaluation of the numbers.

* modified : Damn Smiley, you beat me to it AGAIN!!! Go speedracer, Go speedracer Go!

From the 2004 City of Fargo housing study...

"Despite the long-established pattern of strong growth, the official data services have had a tendency to underestimate the pace of growth in the City. Estimates in the late 1990s failed to reflect the growth that was eventually documented by the 2000 Census. Likewise, US Census Bureau estimates released since 2000 show very limited population growth between 2000 and 2002, and an actual loss of population between 2001 and 2002. While we cannot prove or disprove the Census Bureau's 2002 population estimate, the information that we have collected would not support a significant slowdown in growth for the City, or an actual loss of population since 2001."

Here is the link to the very long PDF file...
http://www.ci.fargo.nd.us/Planning/Housing/FinalStudy.pdf#search=

The Census estimates aren't very accurate and the only numbers I really care about are the official ones that come out every 10 years. The census estimate of Fargo adding about 500 people since 2000 is complete bull.

[NanoBison]

I agree, I can't remember where I dug them up, but the whole metro, on average, has been adding around 2,000/year. So, yes, 500, even if just in Fargo, is indeed balogna.

:cool:

[SmileyBoy]

Hey BigTicket, thanks for digging out that pdf file about the census estimates. I knew there was proof of that on the city website somewhere, but I couldn't find it. Thanks. :tup:

[F-Misthebest]

I'm glad there are so many F-M forumers to find stuff interesting about Fargo-Moorhead.

There is a new building being constructed in front of Lowe's and it looks like a restaurant so I think I'm going to either check it out tonight or tomorrow to see if there is a sign that says what it's going to be and then I'll tell you guys.

[NanoBison]

Hey F-Misthebest, I believe that is going to be the new Texas Roadhouse Steak place, I remember someone telling me that a while back. It sure sounds good and it will give us another choice besides Famous Dave's for BBQ. Here's their website....

http://www.texasroadhouse.com/

Here's the website for the one in Bismarck... I would venture a guess that our's will look similar...

http://www.texasroadhouse.com/newsites/index.php?rid=373

[SmileyBoy]

They're also building one in Sioux Falls, if I'm not mistaken. I saw on the website that theirs will be done in June. Hopefully ours will be completed early this fall.

I think I might go there for my birthday in September (If it's open by then).

[NanoBison]

Not sure if this was posted yet... I can't believe I missed this in the papers...

Craig McEwen and Teri Finneman
The Forum - 05/20/2006
_______________________________________________________________

Fargo-based Vision Bank has applied with the state of North Dakota to open a bank in north Fargo, said Dan Carey, bank president.

Work on the $1.5 million, 3,200-square-foot bank at 1321 21st Ave. N. is scheduled to begin in the next 45 to 60 days, with opening slated for this fall, Carey said.

The new bank will employ about seven full- and part-time workers.

It will be Vision Bank’s second full-service bank. The first, at 3000 25th St. S., opened in April 2003.

Vision Bank also has a mortgage and loan office at 3301 S. University Drive.
_______________________________________________________________

I would also keep my eyes on the Blackridge Financial Group. They are the same guys who built Community First Banks into a $2.5 billion bank before it was sold off to Bank of the West. I expect many great things to come from both Vision Bank and Blackridge Financial.

:cool:

[F-Misthebest]

You know where there was an A&W and Long John Silvers on 19th Ave, well they're turning it into a Bremmer Bank.

[F-Misthebest]

Well, West Acres seems to be doing well. We just got a Coldwater Creek we're getting a Hot Topic and there is roomers of a Hollister going in or if the new mall goes in on 52nd, it will go in there.

Who's all going to the grand opening of the new Scheels store on July 1? I think I'll be there.

[F-Misthebest]

:D I just found out that the average income for a Fargoan is $51,087. That's pretty good I think.

[SmileyBoy]

:D I just found out that the average income for a Fargoan is $51,087. That's pretty good I think.

Really?? Is that per-household?? Where did you hear that?? DAYUM!!!:banana: :banana: :banana:

[SmileyBoy]

Well, West Acres seems to be doing well. We just got a Coldwater Creek we're getting a Hot Topic and there is roomers of a Hollister going in or if the new mall goes in on 52nd, it will go in there.

Who's all going to the grand opening of the new Scheels store on July 1? I think I'll be there.

If I don't have work that day, I'll be there, and taking pictures for the City Photos thread. Otherwise, I'll be there my first day off in July.

[SmileyBoy]

I just wanted to let you all know I now have a blog.

It's http://urbanfm.blogspot.com

All about Fargo-Moorhead development news.

[SmileyBoy]

Pic of the new Texas Roadhouse that's going up.

http://www.in-forum.com/gfx/photos/full/20060608cmroadhouse.jpg
A new steakhouse franchise, Texas Roadhouse, will add another dining option for area residents when the 7,000-square foot, Louisville, Ky.-based chain restaurant opens in late August at 4971 13th Ave. S., just inside the western border of Fargo. Company officials say the 249-seat establishment, which will also include a bar, will have a staff of 160. Bruce Crummy / The Forum

[F-Misthebest]

^Cool picture. Also the blog is very interesting. It's good to have another website dedicated to Fargo-Moorhead.

[F-Misthebest]

I like Fargo-Moorhead.

[SmileyBoy]

I like Fargo-Moorhead.

No... REALLY????....:haha: :haha: :haha:

[F-Misthebest]

^He he!!!!

[NanoBison]

Planners to consider development
By Mike Nowatzki, The Forum
Published Friday, June 09, 2006
In-Forum News Article (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=129380&section=News)

Fargo planning commissioners will get their first look next week at a proposed major development project in south Fargo that combines retail and residential space in a pedestrian-friendly setting.

White Oaks Trust LLC of Nevada hopes to turn 277 acres of land southwest of Interstate 29 and 52nd Avenue South into an upscale neighborhood and shopping center, said Richard Ward, the Fargo real estate agent representing the developer.

“It’s going to end up being very upscale,” said Ward, of Summit Real Estate. “We will have design standards. The architecture will be quite attractive, because we do want it to be a place that people will come quite a distance to get to.”

Preliminary plans call for two or three big-box retail stores along I-29 and 300 to 400 units of medium-density housing on the west side of the property. A commercial area will provide a buffer between the housing and 45th Street.

The housing likely will be row housing or something that appeals to empty-nesters and young professionals, Ward said.

The middle of the development will feature a “city center” with lofts over specialty shops to create an old-time Main Street feel, he said. A “lifestyle center” will provide open-air mall shopping, and an office park will be nestled against a large manmade lake or retention pond. Restaurants and retail stores will line 52nd Avenue.

Ward said the plan adopts elements of New Urbanism, the pedestrian-friendly design concept being used in the Urban Plains by Brandt addition in southwest Fargo.

“Development throughout the country is integrating, where people live, work and play in one location,” he said.

White Oaks Trust currently owns 110 acres at the site. Its principal is Larry Scheffler, a Barnesville, Minn., native and Las Vegas printing company owner, Ward said.

The developer will close on 77 acres next month and the balance of the 277 acres within the next year, he said.

Fargo city commissioners voted in February to annex 201 acres of the property into city limits. White Oaks Trust will petition to have the remaining acres annexed when the sales are final, Ward said.

The Planning Commission will meet Wednesday to consider an amendment to the city’s growth plan that will change part of the property to commercial/mixed use and establish an initial land use plan for areas not covered by the current growth plan.

An update of the growth plan for properties south of 52nd Avenue South is expected to be done this fall.

City planners have recommended approval of the amendment, saying it addresses two important issues: It allows future residents to decide if they want to live near that type of development, and it allows the Fargo School District to capture property tax revenue from the development to offset property taxes.

Senior Planner Jim Hinderaker said one staff concern is ensuring a transition of mixed-use property between the heavy commercial area and what likely will be residential areas along 57th Avenue South.

Construction on the first phase of the development would start this fall at the earliest, Ward said.

Readers can reach Forum reporter Mike Nowatzki at (701) 241-5528






This is exactly the type of development Fargo-Moorhead needs, especially to offset the property taxes issue in town.

:cool:


Unfortunately, I was unable to find anything out online about "White Oaks Trust LLC", so we'll have to wait until another news story to get more info on that development, unless Smiley pulls something up...

[NanoBison]

Fargo airport growth likely
By Andrea Domaskin, The Forum
Published Friday, June 09, 2006
In-Forum News Article (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=129383&section=News)


If you flew from Fargo at this time last year, chances are you boarded a Northwest Airlines or United Express flight.

You didn’t have any other options for commercial airlines.

The start of a Delta Air Lines connection this week and Allegiant Air in November doubles the choices for air travelers in Fargo, and airport officials predict they’ll soon make more airline announcements.

“We’re confident that we’ll have new flights with existing carriers and possibly some new carriers in the not-too-distant future,” said Shawn Dobberstein, executive director of the Municipal Airport Authority.

That’s despite the gloomy atmosphere permeating the airline industry in recent years. United filed for bankruptcy in 2002, exiting in February after the longest and costliest airline restructuring in history. Northwest and Delta filed for bankruptcy in September.

Airlines have done an OK job at restructuring, said Mark Sixel, a Eugene, Ore.-based airport consultant hired to help Hector woo additional air service.

“If it wasn’t for the fuel prices – which impacts everybody – all of them would be making money right now,” Sixel said. “They’ve all done a really good job of cutting costs over the last few years.”

Delta is beefing up its Salt Lake City hub as part of its restructuring plan, said Gina Laughlin, a spokeswoman for the airline.

The new Fargo service is one of 30 nonstop flights to Salt Lake City the airline has added or announced since October. Delta connection carrier SkyWest will run 50-seat regional jets to and from Fargo twice daily.

The airline has expanded its Hawaii and Mexico connections, but other new destinations are small- and medium-sized markets “that are really asking for air service,” Laughlin said.

Fargo-Moorhead is an attractive market because it has higher-than-average ticket prices and a strong economy, Sixel said.

Boardings at Hector have continually increased in recent years.

In 2001, an average of 597 passengers boarded commercial flights daily at Hector. Through April 2006, an average of 833 passengers boarded flights.

Northwest and United Express had an average of 956 seats available on flights in 2001. Through April of this year, those airlines and Allegiant offered an average of 1,156 seats.

Hector Airport officials may open bids late this summer for an estimated $11 million airport terminal remodeling and expansion project.

The economy plays a role, but the airport’s efforts to let air carriers know it’s available are also a factor in getting new airlines, Sixel said.

“It certainly helps that we’re out there making people notice,” Sixel said.

The Airport Authority hired Sixel in January 2005 to help seek additional air service for the airport.

Sixel, who pitched the idea to Hector officials, was certain enough of success that he offered an incentive-based contract.

For each new airline he helps bring in, Sixel receives $2 per paying passenger on flights to the new destination for two years, with a cap of $80,000 per new destination.

The deal applies to both Allegiant and Delta.

In the first seven months of Allegiant Air’s nonstop flights to Las Vegas, Sixel collected $16,236, according to information provided by Hector Airport.

He also collected about $49,700 in other fees, including about $28,300 for presentations aimed at persuading United and Northwest to add destinations.

Airport officials didn’t want to pay Sixel $2 per passenger for new United or Northwest destinations because those airlines already serve Fargo. New destinations could divert passengers from current destinations, Dobberstein said.

The consultant has been worth the cost, Dobberstein said.

“Every penny,” he said.

Sixel and Dobberstein said the airport could see Atlanta-based Delta add a flight to an eastern hub. Allegiant, which now offers nonstop service to Las Vegas, could add another destination, they said.

Hector also has a $675,000 federal grant aimed at bringing in another low-cost carrier. The grant and about $200,000 in matching funds, discounts and services can be used to help with startup costs, advertising and revenue guarantees for a low-fare airline that brings new service to Fargo.

Initially America West was interested in bringing a nonstop flight to Phoenix but later but later backed off due to high fuel costs and a merger with US Airways. The airport is still searching for another low-fare carrier.

What happens next may depend on how the Delta connecting flights do in Fargo.

“All the airlines will look at what’s happening in Salt Lake City to determine whether Fargo will accept new service or not,” Sixel said.

Dobberstein believes Fargo’s airport is on the same track as South Dakota’s Sioux Falls Regional Airport.

That airport started seeing new airlines two years ago, when Allegiant brought in flights to Las Vegas and then to Orlando.

Then Delta brought in flights to Cincinnati. America West started flights to Phoenix but pulled out this April.

Delta started service Thursday from Sioux Falls to Salt Lake City. It will start a flight to Atlanta in August, said Mike Marnach, Sioux Falls Regional Airport executive director.

Four years ago, a retention study of the Sioux Falls airport found that 45 percent of prospective ticket buyers were flying from other airports, mostly Omaha, Neb.

A new study found 25 percent are boarding planes elsewhere.

“The big thing is when the service comes, people have to use it,” Marnach said.





Even more excellent news on the growth of the city, perhaps in the next year or two, we will be seeing direct connections to cities such as, perhaps, Atlanta, Orlando, Cinncinatti, Dallas ??? Or perhaps we may actually see SouthWest enter the marketplace hoping to gobble up midsize markets, like us and Sioux Falls...

Smiley I'm going to post the images here, as well, for the expansion, so everything is in this thread....

[NanoBison]

Here's some pics of the new planned terminal expansion at Hector International:

http://www.fargoairport.com/w_aerial.jpg http://www.fargoairport.com/nw_view.jpg

http://www.fargoairport.com/aerial.jpg http://www.fargoairport.com/sw_closeup.jpg

http://www.fargoairport.com/ne_closeup.jpg http://www.fargoairport.com/nw_closeup.jpg

http://www.fargoairport.com/sw_view.jpg http://www.fargoairport.com/se_closeup.jpg

Total square footage would increase from 76,500 to around 120,000.

Here is the current airport terminal layout aerial image... (from the City of Fargo's GIS System...)

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/5839/fargoairport6fg.jpg



This expansion would add an additional gate, all with skyways, additional waiting area seating, another baggage claim area, and an expanded security check area. The one we have right now tends to get quite congested.

[F-Misthebest]

First of all, we need this mall. It will give us a bigger population boost and maybe some headquarters or large offices could be located by the lake.

Secondly, I want the new airport. I'm flying to Tahoe this summer from there and it would be nice the next time I fly that it would be larger.

[SmileyBoy]

Guys, I think I'm going to close down my blog, because it appears nobody is reading it. I'd rather just discuss F-M development news with you all on this forum. It's not worth having the blog up if nobody's reading it.

[Paintballer1708]

I read the blog. Im interested in seeing what is going on in F-M area. Im moving back to Pittsburgh and when i settle down i want to head out to the Fargo metro to see this area. Also just check out North Dakota. Trust me i bet there are alot more people coming in here and reading this but just not commenting on things. The Midwestern Forum is kinda dead. Its interesting reading about the Fargo area.

[NanoBison]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's dead.... We've just about got 5,000 views on this thread. Sorry to hear about the blog Smiley. I've never really been into Blogs and prefer Bulletin Boards...and we seem to have a decent thread going here on the Fargo-Moorhead Metro...

[Paintballer1708]

Well i shouldnt have used the term "dead". But it doesnt compete with California, the South, of even the Northeast. I do prefer the Bulletin Boards but Smiley's blog has up to date information on development going on there. Sometimes i even go the the City-Complications and they dont even have up to date info.

[F-Misthebest]

I read it, if that helps.

[SmileyBoy]

I was driving along 13th today, and I saw that Erbert & Gerbert's is opening a new store in the new Crossroads Retail Centre on 13th and 35th. Looks like the Starbucks there will also open soon.

[F-Misthebest]

^Cool. Now we have three Erberts and Gerberts, Moorhead on 8th, South Fargo on 25th and 32nd, and the new Crossroads one. Pretty fancy.

[F-Misthebest]

Really?? Is that per-household?? Where did you hear that?? DAYUM!!!:banana: :banana: :banana:

I believe it was per household. My friend told me it who keeps up on the pop. stats.

[Midwesterner19]

I dont understand why all the numbers are being thrown out, whats the source? It sounds like the primary sources cited here are not the official census numbers or official department of labor or economic analysis numbers but numbers just being thrown out or imagined. I am sure Burke County, ND with its 80% population loss according to the census since 1920 could pretend its growing also and pretend up numbers.

If Fargo grew by 34,000 people and its labor force increased by 47 peopleit must have an astronomical birth-rate or senior citizens moving in by thousands. Also why isnt unemployment way up if employment only increased by 581 people when the claim from word of mouth is that the increase was 34,000 people.

New numbers show at least 90% of Fargo's population growth is all births now. The new figures from the census show a domestic out-migration of several dozen people in 2005 and the labor force from April 2005 to April 2006 gained only 47 people.