Originally Posted by goldcntry (Post 3100916)

wburg: Yes, I have been on the toy-train monorail... again, this is a dreamscape! :D My monorail would require ADA clearences, air conditioning, modern, state of the art, Vegas-style monorail and stations.

Originally Posted by ozone (Post 3101355)

wburg and many other people are obviously enamored with everything old including outdated technology like streetcars. I like streetcars in historic areas but think they look silly and out-of-place in a modern contexts.

So the idea of a mono-rail is not so crazy. It's costs would be comparable to light-rail and streetcars because much of it could be manufactured locally, off-site and then delivered and assembled on-site creating a much shorter construction time. This and the fact that a mono-rail is elevated and the support for the tracks have a small footprint means a lot less disruption to traffic and businesses. The elevated tracks mean no conflicts with moving traffic and railroad tracks. It would mean elevators and stairs (but so would a subway). The main complaints of elevated rails are noise (this is not really an issue with modern monorails) and visual aesthetics -which is a matter of taste and getting used to. Besides elevated walkways and stations can be designed to fit nicely into the urban fabric of the city.

Now imagine a monorail line running from the Depot at the Railyards -over I St. via 3rd Street (where there's enough room for the curve needed for monorails), then running to a station directly connected to the Downtown Plaza and Chinatown, then to a station at the Civic Center that's also connected to K Street, then the Convention Ctr, and so forth eastward down the middle of J Street. Then the line could curve onto 29th and 30th using the freeway right-away, over the American River to Cal Expo, Arden Fair and then looping around to connect to North Sac light-rail station and back downtown.

That route would connect Railyards, Downtown, Central Midtown, Sutter Landing and Mckinley parks with Cal Expo.

Originally Posted by ozone (Post 3101785)

All of your arguments in favor of surface streetcars are unconvincing to me but of course they'll convince the knuckeheads. Why do I get the feeling that if Portland Oregon had built a monorail you'd be all for it here?

Well I was using the term streetcar on my terms not yours so yes I did mean restored streetcars. But er... what exactly is the big difference between these streetcars and your basic light rail? What's the difference a slightly shallower trench? Oh what a big improvement.

Originally Posted by goldcntry (Post 3094920)

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...expo_arena.jpg

:tomato:

Originally Posted by wburg (Post 3101989)

Normally I'm the one saying "If Portland jumped off a bridge, would you too?" and am generally unconvinced that they're all that great--but in this case they're right on. Portland understands the difference between streetcars and LRVs: they have both MAX trains (LRVs) that go to the suburbs and two streetcar systems (one modern, one reproduction) in their central city.

What's the difference between streetcars and LRVs, you ask?

Size: Streetcars are normally 30-50 feet long, not much bigger than a bus, and generally run as a single vehicle. LRVs are normally 60-80 feet long and can be MU'd to form trains, in the case of Sacramento, up to 320 feet long.

Speed: Streetcars operate at surface-street speeds of 30-40 MPH. LRVs can operate at 60-70 MPH.

Cost and time of construction: Streetcars are built on a trench about 1 foot deep, and a city block of streetcar tracks takes about 2 weeks. LRV tracks require extensive trenching 3-4 feet, rerouting of subterranean utilities, and other subroadbed work. A block of LRV tracks can take several months, assuming you don't run across any buried human remains or artifacts that result in a work-stop for an archaeological site review. Generally, laying streetcar roadbed costs about a third as much.

Station type: Streetcars can operate anywhere on a street, potentially even including "flag stops," and stations can be no more complex than a bus bench with a shelter. LRVs generally operate at physically larger and more complex stations that cost more, in order to provide room for entire commuter trains and ADA ramps. With modern low-floor streetcars, ADA ramps are unnecessary.

Overhead costs: Because LRVs are lighter and use less power, they are cheaper to run and maintain. Crew costs are about the same (one operator per train) but maintenance crew costs are reduced, both shop maintenance and maintenance of way. Transformers for streetcars are also smaller than LRV transformers.

The bottom line: LRVs and monorails are intended for moving people from the suburbs to the central city. Streetcars are far better for moving people around a neighborhood. They are smaller and thus interfere less with traffic, they are cheaper and faster to construct, and because they are based around moving through a neighborhood rather than from isolated station to isolated station, they help people get around a wider area, rather than between distant points.

The streetcar is a "pedestrian accelerator," not a commuter vehicle.



It doesn't match your dream route, but light rail starts at the entrance to the Railyards area (the train station) and runs to a station within short walking distance to Chinatown and Downtown Plaza (Chinatown is on 5th, the station is on 7th, not exactly a monstrous hike.) It then heads south through the Capitol Mall, and into midtown via O and R Streets. Light rail goes fairly close to, if not exactly to, to all the places you mentioned (R Street may not be "central midtown" enough for you, but it's pretty convenient for anyone living south of L Street) while your space-age monorail would essentially hit the same places and be direct competition for light rail.

Originally Posted by BrianSac (Post 3102114)

Wburg,

I’ve never ridden on Portland’s Streetcars but I have ridden on SF’s muni streetcars. The F Line which goes from the Castro to the Wharf via Market street and the Embarcadero is a nightmare. It is always impacted by traffic thus making it very slow. We were attending Fleet Week on Sunday and decided to take the F line from the wharf to Market/Powell (Union Sq). There were 7 streetcars stuck in traffic with nowhere to go. We couldn’t wait any longer and decided to get off the streetcar and walk to Union sq. from the Wharf . There were masses of people all trying to get on the streetcars while those that made it on were packed like sardines with no where to go because the streetcars were stuck in traffic.

Originally Posted by BrianSac (Post 3102114)

Wburg,
Modern streetcars are way cooler looking than buses, but how
is a modern streetcar different from a bus, especially a modern articulated electrically powered bus like the ones in SF?

Originally Posted by ozone (Post 3102108)

OK thanks wburg for explaining the difference between the LRV and "streetcars" and I'll take what you say and digest it. I'm not against streetcars per se it's just that I think a "space-age" (typical bias -damn you Walt Disney) monorail would be a better solution here given the problems with crossing the freight tracks. And of course, I realize people are so limited in their thinking that it seems wacky and ohh soo space agey that will never happen in Sacramento.

Originally Posted by Pistola916 (Post 3102573)

^
If you're going from Embarcadero to Castro, why not take the Muni metro, its much faster than the F line. The F line is slow. It's better to get off at Church and then walk the 5 or so blocks.

Originally Posted by otnemarcaS (Post 3102429)

This has more to do with the Fleet Week event than taking the F line, although SF's Market street is always a bus, car and streetcar's nightmare anyway. In SF, ANY big event will always be a transportation nightmare, especially if it's on or near Market from Embarcadero to Castro. I've lived there for 2 years and worked there for 4 years. Been there, seen it. Whether it's halloween weekend or fourth of July or gay pride day or new year's or fleet week or bay to breakers or whatever, you will get stuck. I remember taking over an hour trying to get from Embercadero to Castro during halloween. We had to get off after Van Ness and walked the rest of the way.

Originally Posted by BrianSac (Post 3102865)

Yeah, I know it was the Fleet Week issue as well the Columbus/Italian Day Parade. I’ve never seen SF so crowded with so many people covering such a wide swath. It seemed the entire City was overwhelmed with tourists.

I've been practically crushed to death during the Chinese New Years Parade on Grant and I've been in the Gay Pride Parade many times, not to mention the Castro Street Fair and Folsom Street Fair, but never have I seen the entire city so completely overwhelmed as Sunday.

We walked from my old neighborhood on Hyde & Broadway down to the wharf ,watched the Blue Angels and made our way up Stockton through north beach. North Beach was completely packed with people, every restaurant pulled tables out on the sidewalks with cases of wine, pasta, and music. Washington sq was completely packed with people too. As we made our way up Stockton through Chinatown and up the stairs to Bush st. the crowds were still overwhelming in the union sq area. It was complete pandemonium. We had a friend visiting from Italy with us, so this was all quite a treat for him to witness such a spectacular city on foot. The Stockton Street buses were useless too. We walked all the way back to Hyde/Broadway dropping in and out of the various hole in the wall bars along the way. :yes: