The GTA Economy
A thread devoted to all economic news related to Toronto and the GTA. Feel free to post news articles, discuss topics, whatever.
One request, could we keep the condo news separate, as the rest of this forum is pretty condo-centric it would be nice to have a place where we can discuss the actual economy not the health of the residential market. |
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Toronto relies on the oil sands almost as much as Alberta. |
^ No it isn't. International finance is what's keeping Toronto afloat.
I hope aA doesn't touch another building that will be making an impact until their architects go back to kindergarten and find some creativity. My 4 year old cousin can take a jenga block and plop it down somewhere. Maybe aA is hiring interns? |
And what do you think all those busy little banker bees are working on downtown? Equity financing for textiles companies in Mumbai?
No, they are structuring deals and securing financing for O&G companies. Without the oil sands Toronto would not be enjoying the boom it is right now. Period. |
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That was supposed to be our secret. What gives guy? |
And of course on the flipside, 90% of Calgary's residents can trace their roots back to Ontario....
So really, Calgary is merely a suburb of Toronto.:) |
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CIBC - “The consistently strong performance of Toronto reflects the growing diversity of the city’s economic engine,” wrote the bank’s deputy chief economist Benjamin Tal. Though the labour market “is showing signs of fatigue, the quality of employment continues to improve.” Hmmm doesn't really sound like they were saying Toronto's strength comes from what's being done in Northern Alberta. You can read the article here but you probably won't wan't to . < look I didn't spell that dot at the end of my sentence. Bouncing back from recession, Toronto leads Canada’s growth - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle2307960/ |
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Regardless of that, saying Toronto has a diverse economy does not disprove what I said, not is it in-congruent with the fact that Toronto's current boom is fueled by the oil sands. The oil sands are a growth engine. They are at the top of the pyramid, feeding down to many other industries. the extra employment needed to finance the oil sands is fueling countless other industries below it and beside it. I'm not saying without the oil sands Toronto would collapse, far from it, but it is providing that extra cream on top that is really fueling the extraordinary growth we are seeing right now. |
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Sure it does, if Toronto was relying on the oil sands it would not be a diverse economy now would it? Toronto's strength is it's people, the fact that we grow by almost 100,000 people a year has very very little to do with the oilsands. The oilsands are one of many things the banks have invested in. Toronto ranks 12th in the latest Global Financial Centres ranking (March 2010). Toronto performs particularly well in the People sub-index, where it is in 6th place, and in the Asset Management and Professional Services sub-indices, where it is 9th place in both categories. Toronto is also profiled as one of the 8 "Global Leaders" based on the breadth and depth of its financial services activity and connections with other financial centres. To think we rely on just one industry in our economy to support our boom and massive population growth is not only funny but absurd. btw - 1 in 20 Torontonians work in the financial market, according to you they must all be working on some sort of oilsands file. Hope nobody needs to get a loan or a mortgage, they won't find anyone that can spare anytime for them. |
When it comes to the dynamics how of different industries buttress each other, it's hard to make clear delineations. This debate will not go anywhere fruitful.
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Good to see some things never change. Anyway this is off topic at best so lets just move on. You think Toronto is more or less unaffected by the oil sands and I think it is a major contributor to Toronto's recent growth. Agree to disagree. |
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Too funny you need to revert to insulting. You seem a bit like our mayor, all talk no substance. If you're going to lay claim to something being fact then you really should learn to back it up with some actual proof. You've failed to do so. There are plenty things wrong with T.O, and personally I'd place 3rd in Canada in my personal list of favorite cities after Montreal and Vancouver. Most of our condos are sub-par compared to what Vancouver gets, and we're nowhere near as artsy as our sister Montreal. But if somebody is going to say something stupid, made up and try to pass it off as the truth then yes I will comment. It looks as though I'll be starting at EA Games soon, you know part of Toronto's booming Gaming/TV/Movie industry. Hopefully I'll be working on that new Oilsand Game. |
Look if you're willing to have a constructive discussion about this I'd be more than happy to continue it in the Toronto local. my background is in Business and economics so It's something I spend a lot of time thinking about and love to debate.
I'll move the off topic threads there and if you like we can hash it out in an appropriate venue. |
Go for it. If you're willing to discuss the topic without being insulting.
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Wealth and income flows from one industry to another in a multitude of ways. It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be. |
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First off let me apologize for saying you were unwilling to discuss this rationally, it was uncalled for. i did it because you seem to be twisting what I am saying and ignoring key points what I am posting which I find extremely frustrating. Perhaps it is my fault for not properly articulating my argument. i will try to be very clear here, and do not mistake it for me patronizing you, I am just trying to be as clear as possible to avoid any confusion.
Moving on, let me be very clear I am not saying that the entire Toronto economy is running off the oil sands, not even close. Toronto's economy is quite healthy and diverse, you will never catch me arguing the inverse. What I did say was that the majority of the growth of the finance sector has been thanks to the oil sands. I dont have hard evidence to back me up, but I just finished a degree where the majority of my peers are now working in finance, predominantly i-banking and consulting, and when we talk shop the majority of what they are working on is energy related. It is somewhat logical however that this is true if you consider the following: No doubt there is a ton of mining and traditional commerce functions still being performed by the banks, but those industries have not seen major growth lately so they have stayed at similar sizes within the banks. An industry that has seen major growth in Canada however is the energy sector, and hence where the banks have seen major growth is in the energy sector. So while the traditional areas are still important, much of the growth of our financial services has been due to energy. An example, say the bank employs 1,000 people in year 1, 800 in traditional markets and 200 in energy and in year 2 they employ 1200 people, 850 in traditional markets and 350 in energy. The banks still saw good growth and are still healthy in their traditional markets, but the majority of their growth has come from energy. Now this is just the banks sure, but it is important to note that there are a few top down industries in every economy, that fuel many of the other industries. In Calgary it is O&G, in Vancouver it is Mining and in Toronto the largest of these industries is finance. And while not everyone is working in finance the majority of Torontonians owe their employ to finance, as most other white collar professions work along side the banks, the entertainment industry is supported by wages of bankers and said white collar workers, construction workers build the condos for the white collars entertainment industry etc... It all trickles down from the upper industries. So while without the oil sands I think Toronto's economy would still be fine as it is diverse and healthy, I'm saying that the majority of the exceptional growth we have seen lately is due to the oil sands. And that isn't a bad thing, it is important for cities to capitalize on booms like this, and the fact that Toronto can from thousands of miles away is amazing IMO. |
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For Example RBC Canada's largest bank has invested $2.3 billion in the Oilsands but if you step back and look at the company as a whole it's worth 726.206 billion (2010) in the assets it owns. So technically the Oilsands only represent a small portion of it's portfolio. The oil sands are a huge money maker for a country with a small population like Canada, but it's nowhere near being the big banks prime source of income. It's one of many investments in their huge portfolios. TD - Value - $619.545 Billion CAD (2010) OS Investment - $8 Billion Scotia Bank - value - $619.545 Billion CAD (2010) OS investment - $10 Billion |
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