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-   -   Canadian Office Space Market (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=192174)

davidivivid Nov 1, 2011 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidivivid (Post 5458877)
Between 2009 and 2012, 1.85 million sq ft of office space was built in Quebec City, the same amount as in Montreal, even though the Quebec market is about 5 time smaller than Montreal's. Despite this surge in construction, Quebec's vacancy rate remains low, at 4,8%. Hence, it is estimated that during the next two years, 1.1 million sq ft of additional office space will be made available in Quebec City (investments worth about $370M).

source: Altus InSite

http://www.lesaffaires.com/archives/...ontreal/536798

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim (Post 5458954)
That's cool, but the problem for building nuts like us is that none of that translated into any significant towers in either Quebec or Montreal!

I don't really agree with that Rico...at least about Quebec City!!! The Jules Dallaire towers might not be the most beautiful things but they still will be the second and forth tallest in the city. Also, even though they aren't very high, some rather interesting office buildings are either U/C or already built, for example:

Beenox HQ

http://bloguenerdz.ztele.com/wp-cont...ent-beenox.jpg
http://blogue.ztele.com/jouer-a-spid...s-dirait-4818/

La Capitale Insurance future HQ

http://bin.lacapitale.com/ecochantie...ecStAmable.jpg
http://www.ecochantier.lacapitale.com/


http://blog.monlimoilou.com/wp-conte.../jc1120818.jpg
http://blog.monlimoilou.com/index.ph...-estimauville/

Doug Nov 1, 2011 7:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caltrane74 (Post 5463707)
Finally a category where Ontario punches above our weightclass!!!

Except most of the buyers aren't Canadian.

caltrane74 Nov 1, 2011 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug (Post 5464046)
Except most of the buyers aren't Canadian.

Well even within Canada, Ontario is taking a serious beating, at least lately. This is at least something Ontario can be proud of, especially when we are competing against the likes of Alberta, Newfoundland, Saskachewen and British Columbia. In this case I'll take that 70% any day of the week, when in theory we should only be purchasing about 45% of the shares/stocks of companies.

Denscity Nov 2, 2011 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug (Post 5463693)
Perhaps some insight into the demand in Calgary...

Is Calgary stealing Bay Street's thunder in mergers?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...rticle2220747/


Ontario, Quebec losing market share in mergers
boyd erman
Globe and Mail Blog
Posted on Tuesday, November 1, 2011 7:12AM EDT

Investment banking was once largely the preserve of folks in shiny towers in Toronto and Montreal.

Now, Calgary is probably the most heavily bankered city in the country, and firms are branching out and bankers are showing up in smaller centres across Canada. There are offices in towns like Saskatoon (MGI Securities) and Winnipeg (CIBC World Markets.) A report looking at merger activity by province helps to explain why.

The PricewaterhouseCoopers report shows that while companies in Ontario and Quebec once represented two-thirds of the merger and acquisitions activity in Canada, when looking at where the target is based, the two provinces are now down to about half. Ontario dropped from 47 per cent to 31 per cent in the past decade, and Quebec slipped from 29 per cent to 22 per cent.

Much of that market share went to Alberta. But most areas of Canada gained.

While M&A share in Manitoba is down, Winnipeg is once again seen as a "gateway to the west," for large financial firms looking for business. Saskatchewan is busier because it has uranium, potash and farm land that are coveted, the report says. The Atlantic provinces are also increasingly popular.

However, nobody will be abandoning Toronto any time soon. While Ontario has lost some market share on the sell side, it has boomed on the buy side. Buyers from Ontario make up 70 per cent of acquisitions with a Canadian buyer this year, according to PWC.

Here's a look M&A at market share by province of the company being sold, comparing 2011 and 2000. The analysis is by dollar value of deals.
•Alberta: Up from 17.1 per cent to 25.7 per cent.
British Columbia: up from 5 per cent to 16 per cent.
•Manitoba: Down from 1.5 per cent to 1.1 per cent
•Ontario: Down from 47 per cent to 31.4 per cent
•Quebec: Down from 29.1 per cent to 22 per cent
•Saskatchewan: up from 0.1 per cent to 2 per cent
•Atlantic provinces: up from 0.1 per cent to 1.2 per cent

BC (Vancouver) more than tripled their M&A, by far a greater increase than anyone else, but not even mentioned above?

Denscity Nov 2, 2011 5:40 PM

Vancouver's triple A office space dropped to 1.2%. All time low. Luckily there's over 4 million sq feet of office space on the way.

caltrane74 Nov 2, 2011 5:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 5465321)
Vancouver's triple A office space dropped to 1.2%. All time low. Luckily there's over 4 million sq feet of office space on the way.


Now imagine if those 4 million square feet were to be housed in JUST 4 towers?

Metro-One Nov 2, 2011 7:32 PM

:previous:Trust me, many here in Vancouver (myself included) would love to see a new tallest office tower being built in Vancouver (and to be the tallest in the city).

But, that being said, I do believe we are getting some pretty decent stock out of this mini office boom:

1021 W hastings - which just had its ground breaking ceremony!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6136/...30a6ed75_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6129/...1658a7dd_z.jpg

http://www.1021westhastings.com/

this tower IMO is one of the nicest office towers to be built in our country, love its design and the intense density it brings to this city block. The small floor plates will be attractive to the countless mining firms in Vancouver.

The there is the Credit Suisse Tower being built around the Old Stock Exchange building.

http://www.iredale.ca/Libraries/Old_...t_01.sflb.ashx http://www.iredale.ca/Libraries/Old_...y_02.sflb.ashx

Another gem if you ask me. While the thread says it is 115.7 meters tall, I personally think it should be listed as 132.3 meters (the height of the screen). If you include the top of the mast it becomes 136 meters.


And then there is the Telus tower, which I like, the LED screens will be my favorite part of this tower, and it has a very prominent location.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f5...-gardens-1.jpg

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...vancouver.html

And the Bental 6 tower, which is now 50% pre leased.

http://745thurlow.com/gallerypics/ex...render_940.jpg

http://745thurlow.com/

So, not bad for sleepy little Vancouver! 4 20+ office tower u/c at the same time, and soon!

caltrane74 Nov 2, 2011 9:00 PM

The trend has been pudgy 20 to 30 storey office towers....

it sux!

Waiting for word on some of the bigger office towers, like Bay Adelaide 2(East) and 45 Bay Street. Then we can get excited about real office towers again. - Otherwise, we're gonna end up looking like Tokyo.

hmmmmm.... on second thoughts????

Vaillant Nov 3, 2011 1:34 AM

is there a high restriction in vancouver? it seems they will never get something at 200m and more!

Coldrsx Nov 3, 2011 2:19 AM

Welcome to the term 'view cone'

agrant Nov 3, 2011 2:35 AM

The view cones could very possibly be toast if there were large enough tenants demanding more floor space. Vancouver simply doesn't get those kind of companies.

ibz Nov 3, 2011 3:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgarian (Post 5463969)
I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few large towers already in the works...

Multiple Landlords are actively marketing projects downtown now, you will see at least 1 announced before year end, with a second following shortly after.

craner Nov 3, 2011 4:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caltrane74 (Post 5465694)
The trend has been pudgy 20 to 30 storey office towers....

it sux!

Waiting for word on some of the bigger office towers - then we can get excited about real office towers again.

Agreed:(

craner Nov 3, 2011 4:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibz (Post 5466245)
Multiple Landlords are actively marketing projects downtown now, you will see at least 1 announced before year end, with a second following shortly after.

But this is exciting :yes:

caltrane74 Nov 7, 2011 5:45 PM

Parking lot now closed for the new RBC Global Headquarters building down at Harbourfront. 30 Floors. Bay and Harbour.


http://urbantoronto.ca/sites/default...3449-10133.jpg
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2011/10/...park-place-iii

eemy Nov 7, 2011 11:20 PM

You keep on referring to it as the Global Headquarters. As far as I can tell, Royal Bank Plaza will continue to be the headquarters for global operations and the domestic operations will be headquartered at the new Waterfront office tower.

LeftCoaster Nov 8, 2011 2:03 PM

That is correct.

But "global headquarters" makes Toronto sound so much cooler...

caltrane74 Nov 8, 2011 3:19 PM

No, I honestly thought this building was going to be the global headquarters, to be shifted out of Royal Bank Plaza.

It's an honest mistake.


___________

I'm secretly waiting for Scotiabank to move their Latin Americans Operations headquarters to 45 Bay Street.

lol!

Ramako Nov 13, 2011 5:50 PM

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/loca...-space-soaring

Condos send demand for office space soaring

TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE
Published: November 09, 2011 7:58 p.m.


Quote:

All those new downtown condos that are now home to bright, young workers is helping drive demand for office space away from the suburbs and back into Toronto’s core, a new report says.

Also fuelling the increasing demand — so strong that the vacancy rate for downtown office space fell to 5.1 per cent in Q3 — is interest in new environmentally sound office towers, redevelopment of the waterfront and frustration with long commutes.

Toronto isn’t alone, according to commercial real estate brokerage Cushman & Wakefield’s Occupier Insight Report released yesterday.

Major U.S. cities such as San Francisco, Chicago, New York, Boston and even downtown Los Angeles are also seeing a significant shift from the suburbs, although their office vacancy rates are still more than double that of Toronto’s.

“Major downtown office markets in North America are thriving in the face of turbulent global economic conditions thanks to smart urban planning which has opened the doors to a younger, educated and plugged-in population that prefers to live, work and play close to home,” says the report.

But compounding that demand in Toronto is an unprecedented condo boom, with some 70,000 new units built in or close to the downtown core in the last five years, notes the report. Another 17,000 are under construction or due to open by year’s end.

That’s provided an instant workforce for the 4.5 million square feet of office space has been added to the downtown core in the last two years alone, with more coming especially in the waterfront area.

freeweed Nov 28, 2011 3:42 PM

Calgary forecast to be tightest office market in the country

rbt Nov 28, 2011 4:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeweed (Post 5495723)

Not surprising. Calgary today reminds me a lot of Manchester during the industrial revolution. As a Torontonian who likes to invest in junior energy firms; go Calgary!

PoscStudent Nov 28, 2011 4:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeweed (Post 5495723)

The vacancy rate for St. John's isn't mentioned in another article on this report, though the city is mentioned, but we've had a 0% vacancy rate for class A for the last year.

Calgarian Nov 28, 2011 4:26 PM

Sweet! hopefully we get a couple new tallest buildings going before the middle of the decade.

Surrealplaces Nov 28, 2011 4:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgarian (Post 5495780)
Sweet! hopefully we get a couple new tallest buildings going before the middle of the decade.

Bring on Herald Square! .....and if the market is crazy enough, maybe they'll add a few more stories to it :yes:

suburbanite Nov 28, 2011 6:45 PM

Hopefully we'll see some more iconic office towers in Calgary. I'd love for one or two towers that are 250m+ just to create some focal point on the skyline. Even the mighty Bow is lost in the sea of towers from some angles.

Tarsus Nov 28, 2011 7:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 5495953)
Hopefully we'll see some more iconic office towers in Calgary. I'd love for one or two towers that are 250m+ just to create some focal point on the skyline. Even the mighty Bow is lost in the sea of towers from some angles.

Please god, just give us an 850 footer, and one 1000+ footer to go with it, and I'll never ask for anything else :)

whiteford Nov 28, 2011 9:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarsus (Post 5495983)
Please god, just give us an 850 footer, and one 1000+ footer to go with it, and I'll never ask for anything else :)

what he said:yes:

Architype Nov 28, 2011 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoscStudent (Post 5495769)
The vacancy rate for St. John's isn't mentioned in another article on this report, though the city is mentioned, but we've had a 0% vacancy rate for class A for the last year.

Because everyone has sat on their "Duff" and done nothing to help matters, yet.

PoscStudent Nov 28, 2011 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Architype (Post 5496198)
Because everyone has sat on their "Duff" and done nothing to help matters, yet.

hehehe...

craner Nov 29, 2011 4:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgarian (Post 5495780)
Sweet! hopefully we get a couple new tallest buildings going before the middle of the decade.

Yes, yes, please, please, please :fingerscrossed:

Wooster Nov 29, 2011 4:53 AM

I suspect that City Centre in Calgary is highly, highly likely to break ground in 2012. Beyond that, I would guess Centennial 3 and EAP 2. Probably no gigantic towers this round, but particularly good for the Eau Claire district in its evolution.

TallBob Nov 29, 2011 4:55 AM

Definetely 2 or 3 850 - 950 footers for Calgary. The city digests such large chunks of office space, I don't know why some of these developers even screw around with these 30 - story proposals to begin with. Then it would be nice to see some high-rise residences in the 50 - 60 story range!

Policy Wonk Nov 29, 2011 9:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeweed (Post 5495723)

A friends company just made an unsolicited offer to sublease a cafeteria because it is the absolutely only plausible space in the proximity of their existing office.

freeweed Nov 29, 2011 3:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk (Post 5496883)
A friends company just made an unsolicited offer to sublease a cafeteria because it is the absolutely only plausible space in the proximity of their existing office.

But...but.. the article is only talking about class A space! How can we tell anything about the market with just that? :haha: I swear, if you're not here and working in the biz, you have no clue - the media is really not reporting this very well at all. Calgary's full, folks. Sorry, no more room.

I think a cafeteria is what, class F space?

Policy Wonk Nov 29, 2011 5:19 PM

It is an A building, presumably they aren't just going to have people sitting in the cafeteria as-is.

Coldrsx Nov 29, 2011 5:41 PM

Market for Edmonton office space to pick up in 2012: forecasts

Higher vacancy rate was expected because of new Epcor building

BY LEWIS KELLY, EDMONTONJOURNAL.COM NOVEMBER 28, 2011



STORYPHOTOS ( 1 )



The market for Edmonton office space is looking up in 2012, according to commercial real estate forecasts
Photograph by: John Lucas, edmontonjournal.com
EDMONTON — The market for office space in Edmonton will pick up steam next year, say forecasts released Monday by CBRE and Cushman & Wakefield. But though both firms predict an increase in leasing activity in 2012, they disagree about some specifics.

The Cushman & Wakefield report forecasts the office space vacancy rate for downtown Edmonton increasing from 7.2 per cent in Q3 2011 to 9.7 per cent in 2012. According to its report, CBRE foresees a decline from 10.3 per cent to 9.1 per cent over that period.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...123/story.html

WhipperSnapper Nov 30, 2011 1:25 AM

The bank I work for is hiring like crazy unfortunately they have actually found a way to reconfigure workspaces to about 10 square feet for the backroom operations like the massive tech department. The HVAC system is failing from being overloaded but they don't seem to care.

There's a will when there is uncertainty over the future. Too much speculation in commodities and real estate.

240glt Dec 2, 2011 2:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper (Post 5497988)
The bank I work for is hiring like crazy unfortunately they have actually found a way to reconfigure workspaces to about 10 square feet for the backroom operations like the massive tech department. The HVAC system is failing from being overloaded but they don't seem to care.

Granite and glass gets office space leased. Building systems are almost always a secondary consideration.

I am working on reconfiguring storage units into occupiable space in one of my office towers right now. We are strapped for room for existing tenants to expand.

caltrane74 Dec 2, 2011 2:28 AM

My company is also hiring app developers and client support like crazy. Fortunately for us, our office is in Mississauga and we have plenty of space to expand. We share our office building with a stupid car company from Germany.

ToxiK Dec 2, 2011 3:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caltrane74 (Post 5501220)
We share our office building with a stupid car company from Germany.

What have they done that is so stupid? :jester:

caltrane74 Dec 2, 2011 5:09 AM

They leave all their exotic supercars in the employee parking lot for starters.

240glt Dec 17, 2011 6:22 PM

Edmonton fills 558,000 square feet of office space in 2011

EDMONTON - Edmonton exhibited a voracious appetite for office space this year, according to Avison Young’s latest report.

“The Edmonton office space inventory absorbed more net area than the last five years combined,” reads the Q4 2011 report from the real estate firm. The report says Edmonton filled 558,000 square feet of office space in 2011, spurred by the expansion of firms like Epcor, Intact Insurance and Enbridge, along with the federal Department of Justice.

The total is the market’s highest since 2004. Annual absorption between 2005 and 2010 peaked at 300,000 sq. ft. The market disgorged 270,000 sq. ft. last year.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...765/story.html

Coldrsx Dec 17, 2011 7:51 PM

Not bad for little old Edmonton...

taal Dec 18, 2011 3:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caltrane74 (Post 5501220)
My company is also hiring app developers and client support like crazy. Fortunately for us, our office is in Mississauga and we have plenty of space to expand. We share our office building with a stupid car company from Germany.


Do you think this is the problem with Toronto, and always will be ?
Let me be more specific :)

No other cities have the equivalent of Mississauga in terms of office space do they ? I think Mississauga, or the GTA west in general has about 30 million square feet or so ? More then Edmonton I believe ?

Let's just go on population, Toronto is 3 million or so and the GTA has probably another 3 million in it or so ? Is that the common trend i.e. Calgary is about 1 million and the suburbs another million ? In about the same area.

But in terms of jobs, does anything come close to the GTA west in terms of the shear amount of office space ? Leave Canada, how does it compare to America, where the CMAs are much larger then this proportion, but again, what about office space ?

As the GTA west (and increasingly the east in Markham / Richmond Hill) continue to expand it'll always put a huge burden on Toronto proper (lets ignore the outer 416, completely different issue) but the core in particular ...
Maybe could downtown Toronto be about 1.5 X as large if it was in a similar situation to say Calgary or Edmonton or Montreal ?

The typical trend I see is: Most large Canadian companies stay in the core, most media companies (of any size) start in the core, most small to medium tech companies are in the core. But tech in this case is usually media related e.g. iphone development and the like. But as they grow some tend to move to the suburbs. Lots of government / institutional and health related are also in the core.

Sounds like a lot but what's not are large American companies (of all types !), particularly their Canadian headquarters (which are large), the majority of these are in the 905 and this is very very significant.

Maybe other parts of Canada don't have this i.e. they're all located in the GTA. So maybe the way to look at this is other Canadian cities don't host the headquarters of American companies so they wouldn't be located in their core or otherwise. Imagine some of these were downtown, they could fill up large office towers ! They take up a ton of space in Missiaga (in 5-10 story offices).

We probably compare very favorably in this regard with Vancouver, but that's hardly fair due to limited land i.e. Vancouver suburbs indeed have a lot of office space.

TallBob Dec 18, 2011 5:18 AM

Good news about Edmonton. That's a pretty good absorption rate. Calgary's gonna have a little competition!

WhipperSnapper Dec 18, 2011 4:37 PM

tile
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5520686)
Do you think this is the problem with Toronto, and always will be ?
Let me be more specific :)

There is little competition between Mississauga office parks and Toronto's downtown area. The start-ups/fly-by-nights and various operations of larger companies were costed out of the CBD long time ago. Our former boroughs suffer the same fate as Mississauga Centre; can't compete with the low cost of land.

Doug Dec 18, 2011 5:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5520686)
Calgary is about 1 million and the suburbs another million ?

Calgary city proper is about 1.1M. Burbs add slightly over 100K. More relevant, the burbs are virtually 100% residential. They have some retail and warehousing, but virtually no office space.

Rusty van Reddick Dec 18, 2011 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5520686)
Calgary is about 1 million and the suburbs another million ?

You're so far off it's ridiculous- you couldn't have looked this up?

Calgary has almost zero "suburbs." Unlike Toronto or Vancouver or the vast, vast, vast majority of US cities, more than 90% of the Calgary CMA comprises persons resident in the municipality of Calgary. About 1.1 million in the city and barely 100k in the other municipalities that make up our CMA. The only sizeable one- and that's stretching the idea- is Airdrie at about 44,000 and it doesn't have office parks. Airdrie and the other suburbs (Cochrane, Chestermere, Rocky View MD) are absolutely growing but Calgary is still effectively a unicity.

taal Dec 18, 2011 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper (Post 5520960)
There is little competition between Mississauga office parks and Toronto's downtown area. The start-ups/fly-by-nights and various operations of larger companies were costed out of the CBD long time ago. Our former boroughs suffer the same fate as Mississauga Centre; can't compete with the low cost of land.

This is a common trend in other US cities as well though i.e. to have many companies locate elsewhere due to cheaper land ?

taal Dec 18, 2011 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick (Post 5521068)
You're so far off it's ridiculous- you couldn't have looked this up?

Calgary has almost zero "suburbs." Unlike Toronto or Vancouver or the vast, vast, vast majority of US cities, more than 90% of the Calgary CMA comprises persons resident in the municipality of Calgary. About 1.1 million in the city and barely 100k in the other municipalities that make up our CMA. The only sizeable one- and that's stretching the idea- is Airdrie at about 44,000 and it doesn't have office parks. Airdrie and the other suburbs (Cochrane, Chestermere, Rocky View MD) are absolutely growing but Calgary is still effectively a unicity.

Sorry about that your right, I forgot Calgary was in a rather unique situation.
I'll take it a step further, correct me if I'm wrong though, not only does Calgary make up the majority of the region (population), most office space in Calgary (and hence the region) is located downtown ?

That's a great setup, very centralized, maybe it won't work when Calgary grows more but seems like a good model in my books.


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