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-   -   Phoenix 101: What killed downtown (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=239762)

Sun Belt Aug 5, 2019 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAYNYC
(...finds and posts the worst possible image he can find via a Google Images search of "suburban office park", and best possible angle of downtown Phoenix).

Better?

Phoenix:
http://i.forbesimg.com/media/lists/p...az_416x416.jpg

Suburban Office Park:
https://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/ci...png?1399932508

JAYNYC Aug 5, 2019 8:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno (Post 8650025)
Yeah actually I kind of do, Its a tight cluster surrounded by sprawl. Like a spike on a giant flat plain. LA's is as one would expect 5x larger, but proportionally ...

https://live.staticflickr.com/4305/3...701785d5_b.jpg

And relative to the overall region it represents its very undersized.

Now LA is starting to really develop its core quite a bit now so we will see how that goes in the next decade.

I'm so glad that you clearly captioned that ^ photo as "LA". Initially had to do a double-take; at first glance, I swore it was downtown Phoenix. :rolleyes:

JAYNYC Aug 5, 2019 8:41 PM

.

LA21st Aug 5, 2019 8:42 PM

That's an angle that shows off downtown's newer section too. You don't really see the historic core/fashion district areas. The historic core is proof LA developed differently than other sunbelt cities.

Sun Belt Aug 5, 2019 8:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAYNYC (Post 8650045)
Again, that ^ resembles downtown Glendale or downtown San Jose.

Who cares! Downtown Glendale or San Jose don't resemble a suburban office park either.

Obadno Aug 5, 2019 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAYNYC (Post 8650042)
I'm so glad that you clearly captioned that ^ photo as "LA". Initially had to do a double-take; at first glance, I swore it was downtown Phoenix. :rolleyes:

https://media2.giphy.com/media/JwNPAckJDiPsI/source.gif

LA21st Aug 5, 2019 8:44 PM

True, Sunbelt.

JAYNYC Aug 5, 2019 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Belt (Post 8650026)

Again, that ^ resembles downtown Glendale or downtown San Jose.

Sun Belt Aug 5, 2019 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAYNYC (Post 8650054)
Again, that ^ resembles downtown Glendale or downtown San Jose.

It might. It certainly doesn't resemble a suburban office park though. ;)

Obadno Aug 5, 2019 8:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA21st (Post 8650047)
That's an angle that shows off downtown's newer section too. You don't really see the historic core/fashion district areas. The historic core is proof LA developed differently than other sunbelt cities.

I feel like we are running in circles, its core was larger but it didn't develop different, Phoenix's town center had a pre war street car, as did Dallas. Its just the magnitude of LA was/is that much greater at the time. But the pattern of development among all three places is very similar which was my original contention.

Like Philly, and NY having similar development patterns as they developed at the same time, nobody is suggesting that Philly is as large as NY, NY has a much greater magnitude but they are similar to each other.

JAYNYC Aug 5, 2019 8:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno (Post 8650056)
But the pattern of development among all three places is very similar

No, it isn't. It's more similar to the IE, San Jose, or Las Vegas, as previously stated.

JAYNYC Aug 5, 2019 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno (Post 8650056)
Like Philly, and NY having similar development patterns as they developed at the same time

How so? I'll wait.

Obadno Aug 5, 2019 9:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAYNYC (Post 8650064)
How so? I'll wait.

How did NY and Philly develop in similar ways and similar times?

Well I suppose Ill just point to the nature of time and geography let you put the rest together.

JAYNYC Aug 5, 2019 9:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno (Post 8650085)
How did NY and Philly develop in similar ways and similar times?

Well I suppose Ill just point to the nature of time and geography let you put the rest together.

I live and work in the heart of New York, and visit Philadelphia regularly. The two cities are nothing alike.

Obadno Aug 5, 2019 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAYNYC (Post 8650115)
I live and work in the heart of New York, and visit Philadelphia regularly. The two cities are nothing alike.

Two east coast coastal port cities founded with 30 years of each other by European colonists, in the Same CSA depending on how you define it, both of them major points of importance for the Revolutionary period and both northern cities for the civil war period.

Both became industrial centers around the same time and have similar demographics...

I mean I could go on and on but NY and Philly generally speaking are very similar you are just being obtuse, if we are going to split hairs every neighborhood of every city is technically different but without generalizing then we cant say anything about anywhere. Some nice sophistry there buddy

pj3000 Aug 5, 2019 9:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obadno (Post 8650085)
How did NY and Philly develop in similar ways and similar times?

Well I suppose Ill just point to the nature of time and geography let you put the rest together.

I'm interested in hearing this too.

FYI, development in the Philadelphia area was just as much focused on the countryside as it was in Center City. SE PA/Philly was a very early agricultural and industrial center, with many surrounding towns developing right along with Philadelphia as early settlement spread west, north, and south along early travel routes and river valleys. Given the nature of topography and use, this was generally low density development.

In NYC... this was not the case at all. A commercial/trade center built on islands, with intense development focused for a very long time on or near the coastline.

But I'll let you reformulate these facts to fit this obtuse narrative. Have at it.

Obadno Aug 5, 2019 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8650124)
I'm interested in hearing this too.

FYI, development in the Philadelphia area was just as much focused on the countryside as it was in Center City. SE PA/Philly was a very early agricultural and industrial center, with many surrounding towns developing right along with Philadelphia as early settlement spread west, north, and south along early travel routes and river valleys. Given the nature of topography and use, this was generally low density development.

In NYC... this was not the case at all. A commercial/trade center built on islands, with intense development focused for a very long time on or near the coastline.

But I'll let you reformulate these facts to fit this obtuse narrative. Have at it.

How is New York harbor, Long Island sound, the Hudson, East "river" any different than a the banks of a river (The Hudson literally is a river) Philly isnt on an Island but it developed along navigable waterways just as NYC did. There were settlements up the Hudson Valley, along Long island and into new Jersey just as early as the original NY settlement in Manhattan.

So Yes I find your argument obtuse.

pj3000 Aug 5, 2019 10:02 PM

Now you're just grasping with nonsense talk that is pretty much unintelligible.

You were doing much better with your Phoenix-LA bit, so stick to that.

Buckeye Native 001 Aug 5, 2019 10:12 PM

Of all the suburban office park pictures posted so far, nobody could find/post one of the numerous examples across Metropolitan Phoenix to use? It's not like there's a shortage of them.

Off the top of my head (at least, what I'm familiar with), anywhere along the I-10 corridor between the Split and the Broadway Curve; Deer Valley/North Phoenix; Mesa/Gilbert near Gateway Airport... ;)

Obadno Aug 5, 2019 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 8650150)
Now you're just grasping with nonsense talk that is pretty much unintelligible.

You were doing much better with your Phoenix-LA bit, so stick to that.

Pretty much unintelligible how? If you are really going to argue that Philly and New York are too different to compare then we cant really compare anything and most of our conversations in this forum are pointless.

That's an unworkable and unreasonable standard to hold in these kind of conversations. I suppose we cant compare people because some are fatter than others?


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