Well, the original Eglinton LRT was going have honour fare (i.e. POP) system, which is a necessity for combination of underground and on-street ROW. POP is typical for LRT, so it's likely that honour fare system is still planned judging from the way they're still calling this line "LRT", though POP is unnecessary now that the part of the line currently proposed or under construction are all underground or elevated. But I guess it depends on what they want to due with the future extension to the airport, which could still be on-street.

Exactly. The Toronto subway system is defined by its fare-paid zones, and fare-paid zones are important to the overall transit system as whole. With fare-paid zones, I don't see how this Eglinton line can be considered part of the subway/RT system. It's not even about the technology, it's just the fare policy. Currently, only the 501 Queen streetcar uses POP, and likely all the streetcars will switch to POP, so if the Eglinton LRT will use POP, it should be grouped together with the streetcar system.

Which in this case is a better solution, IMO.

Catenaries can be two step where the catenaries drop, as occurrs, I believe, in Buffalo, NY. I suspect that some extra electronics is necessary- maybe quick switch over to power from a bank of capacitors, but, IMO this would be 'small' change, when compared to 3rd rail mixed, or to the new induction models.

The issue is that Toronto is going to spend $5.9 billion for just 20km of new LRT and $1.2 billion to upgrade a tiny $1.6 billion to "upgrade" a current rapid transit line over to LRT.
Now let me say that again.................they are going to be spending $1.2 billion to put in LRT tracks and over head power supply for just 5km. No stations to build, no land to buy, no sewers or electrical systems to change yet is costing $1.2 billion. This is made worse by the fact that the LRT will be both slower and have lower capacity than the current line! And yes.........you really did read that right.
They are transferring the Vancouver SkyTrain technology over to LRT. They say it's because it can't handle the winters and they would have to change a couple underpasses to handle the new SkyTrain MK11 trains They also use the ridiculous excuse that the trains are loud and have to much vibration which is absurd as the MK11 cars are comfortable, quiet, smooth, and reliable and have faster pickup speeds than any LRT system and higher capacity. Toronto still uses it's original MK1 cars from the early 80s which haven't been manufactured since the last century. Of course all they have to do is spend a few million to put in the heating mechanism and upgrade the overpasses but what's a billion dollars between friends.

Continued as my internet went down, anyway...............
Toronto also says that they don't want to use the SkyTrain's proprietary technology which again is absurd as the supplier is Bombardier and Toronto has NEVER used any other supplier than Bombardier and never will whether it be for their legacy streetcar replacements or new subway trains. They even got the new subway cars without tender and the contract went straight to Bombardier which is Montreal based with plants in Ontario. Sometimes they go thru the public relation exercise of tenders like the massive legacy streetcar fleet replacement but everyone knew from word go that it would go to Bombardier and of course it did. Siemens or Alstom could run a buy one get one free streetcar sale and the contracts would still go to Bombardier. It's for this reason that proprietary technology concerns is a farce in Toronto. If Bombardier all of a sudden stopped building LRTs and went over to horse and buggy Toronto would be ordering new carriages within the week and then go onto a public relations exercise to try to pursuade Torontonians it's best choice for the city.
Yet another lie from Toronto about not wanting proprietary technology is that the new LRT cars will not be compatible with the downtown legacy streetcars due to different gauge. That's right.....................instead of using standard metro or just extending it as SkyTrain it is going to have to build complete new LRT maintenance, garage, and control centre which is much more expensive than simply expanding the current subway or SkyTrain garages.
Toronto is building, literally, the world's most expensive LRT system yet is going to cost more if it just built the system as metro or especially as just a SkYtrain extention yet will have the lowest capacity for same size stations and the highest mainteance costs due to the shorter life expextancy of LRT cars over subway or SkYtrain vehicles.
This is why Toronto has not expanded it's subway system in the last 30 years except the 6km Sheppard "stubway". The problem is that Torontonians are so use to not having promises of rapid transit expansion kept that there is a mentality that "thank god were getting something" which is why no one wants to rock the boat and demand accountability for this outrageously expensive project.

I think I had just commented that the technology that has been chosen is taking into consideration an eventual extension to Pearson airport which may not be cost justified to be 100% grade separated.

My understanding is that the Scarborough RT was a demonstration line from the beginning and has now served its useful life. It needs to be integrated into the rest of the rapid transit network. The choice being to integrate it as part of the Eglinton cross-town or as an extension Danforth-Bloor subway. Obviously, the latter must be even more problematic. With the choice being to Eglinton cross-town, ridership potential over the entire line must suggest that LRT is sufficient to serve the long-term need. We have to remember that Calgary's C-Train (two LRT lines) is moving at least 250,000 passengers a day. What are we expecting on the Eglinton route?

What also has to be considered is the use of third rail trains exposed to the elements anywhere in eastern Canada, where snowfall and ice is frequent and could affect service reliability. It is no surprise that Montreal's Metro is entirely underground. Ottawa's proposed network, mostly at grade, will use overhead power as the best way to deal with the severe winters. Furthermore, to not lock the city into providing very costly 100% grade separation on the entire route, particularly in the suburbs.

LRT would make sense IF they ever decided to run at grade in the future but they are not and cannot. The reason being is that Metrolinx has stated it wants the entire line to be automated which means any further expansions must be completely grade separated.
I am a fan of LRT when appropriate as it is a cost effective alternative to metro but this LRT is completely grade separated with 20km of it being underground which negates any potential savings yet has lower capacity than metro or SkyTrain. The fact that it will require ripping up an existing rapid transit line and having to build a brand new maintenance, garage, and control centre as it cannot use the one for the legacy fleet due to different gauge makes it an even more obscene waste of funds.

ssiguy, your posts are informative and depressing. A few years ago the 20km/16 station-long heavy rail Fukutoshin line opened in Tokyo, and it cost around half as much as what you are quoting for the Eglinton LRT. I imagine the number of stations on the LRT is what is driving the cost up, but the structural requirements for building a subway in Tokyo probably vastly outweigh those in Toronto, which I imagine would drive the cost up as well. I can't help but feel like there is money here just vanishing into some black hole.

lrt's friend: There are significant portions of the Toronto subway exposed to the elements but I recall very few times that the system has been shut down due to inclement weather (I do remember it got shut down for a day or two in the exposed areas about 11 or 12 years ago though).

LRT's friend, third rail is not problem in Toronto. Much of Toronto's subway system is already above ground and is powered by third rail.

I agree. Having same fleet/technology as the existing subway would have been more efficient. I thought the original Eglinton LRT proposal was dumb, but this new Eglinton LRT is just folly.

Even extending at-grade in the future will be waste since the rest is already grade-separated. And why would you extend a 26km grade-separated line 10 km at-grade to connect to the airport and another grade-separated system (Mississauga Transitway), especially when there is so much space along the Richview corridor for a below-grade system? Doesn't make sense. Might as well keep the whole line grade-separated, so there is no point in LRT in the first place.

Even a short at-grade section would cause delays across the entire line.

I think we better get our terminology straight. Running at grade does not necessarily mean that you don't have an exclusive right of way. It simply means that you are running on the surface. It does have an enormous impact on cost. When you have a wide corridor available as suggested, why do we have to bury the route? If surface running will save a ton of money, the route can be built much sooner. It does not have to affect service reliability or speed if the trains are not intermingling with traffic. But, if you choose third rail technology, then you will need to build as a subway or elevated. You may save money on Phase 1 doing this, but all those savings will be spent and more to tunnel and/or elevate Phase 2. LRT will give more flexibility and choices when building Phase 2. I do not think it is fair to expect Ontario taxpayers as a whole to fully fund another $8 billion (or whatever) to extend this route as a subway to Pearson if cheaper options are available when no other city in the province gets this kind of funding arrangement for rapid transit.

Eglinton LRT nation's costliest infrastructure project: magazine


Jan. 01, 2012

By Bill Curry

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...4/?from=sec431




http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.c...358345cl-8.jpg

There would still be unpredictable delays due to traffic unless railroad crossings were installed at every single street between Black Creek Dr. and the airport through residential areas, and would necessitate the destruction of parkland and/or houses (unless you're suggesting they'll run it along the middle of Eglinton and build railroad crossing gates in the middle of intersections).

It needs to be completely independent of traffic in order to make the underground, grade-separated portions worth the cost, but the only ways of doing so seem prohibitive in this area.

Why wouldn't they just make this the same as the rest of Toronto's subway? Heavy rail makes more sense than light rail. In 30 years, they're going to be kicking themselves for putting LRT in. LRT may be cheaper, but a fast growing major city like Toronto needs heavy rail. Build this right the first time.

It felt like the 509/510 was a pretty tight fit when it went underground at Queens Quay and also at the turn into Union Station. Maybe I was just claustrophobic.

I'll assume 'they' know what they are doing and the new Spadina/Harbourfront cars will be suitably articulated.

8 years to build is pretty remarkable since these things usually take half as long.

The funding is being spread over 8 years.

I cannot understand for ANY reason why Toronto will use LRT for Eglinton......I really can't but then again neither can Metrolinx or the TTC. This whole project is starting to wreak of corruption and paybacks. There is no justification for LRT, a lot of people must be getting their palms greased over this.

Of course you cannot understand, but I am sure no one is surprised of your ignorance.

Toronto is using LRT, because we have to follow the North American wide fad and obsession with Light Rail Transit. Light rail has turned into this weird religion among transit geeks, that is is actually starting to get concerning and a tad creepy.

They should have just followed the original plan and constructed it as subway.

In pure Toronto fashion the Eglinton LRT will be so overcrowded when it opens, people will be going "oh we should have built a subway".

Same thing happened with the Scarborough Rapid Transit.

All I can say is thank goodness the Toronto planners from the 50's to 80's did not have the same attitude they do today concerning transit, or Toronto would have had no subways or what is arguably the worlds most integrated multi-model transit system.

I don't know about it being too overcrowded, it would have the equivalent length of a 4 subway car and be rapid with no traffic lights getting in the way. And if it is too crowded that won't help the already existing overcrowding during peak times on the existing network.