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Cre47 Oct 27, 2007 3:11 PM

The future of Ottawa's Transit
 
Here I can open up the discussion on the public transit issue on light rail, bus, etc, etc.

Right now, while Gatineau is moving (FINALLY) foward with the Rapibus, in Ottawa other then gradual improved service along the Transitway corridor, the city is stalled regarding the future of rapid transit since Larry O'Brien squashed the original light-rail plan with an assist to John Baird and the Federal Conservative Government.

The next chapter is the Urbandale proposal next month

Jamaican-Phoenix Oct 27, 2007 3:13 PM

Yeah, when is that proposal going to be available to the public? Or is it already available through the city or do by going to a Library, etc.?

eemy Oct 27, 2007 5:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix (Post 3130037)
Yeah, when is that proposal going to be available to the public? Or is it already available through the city or do by going to a Library, etc.?

Apparently you can request a copy from the City Clerk. It's probably as simple as walking in to City Hall and asking.

p_xavier Oct 27, 2007 5:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak (Post 3130185)
Apparently you can request a copy from the City Clerk. It's probably as simple as walking in to City Hall and asking.

I hate people living in the 18th century, there is no excuse for it not to be online.

Jamaican-Phoenix Oct 27, 2007 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak (Post 3130185)
Apparently you can request a copy from the City Clerk. It's probably as simple as walking in to City Hall and asking.


City Clerk? SO I just waltz into City Hall, go to the main/info/front desk and ask for the Urbandale plan?

the capital urbanite Oct 28, 2007 1:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cre47 (Post 3130036)
the city is stalled regarding the future of rapid transit since Larry O'Brien squashed the original light-rail plan with an assist to John Baird and the Federal Conservative Government.

The next chapter is the Urbandale proposal next month

....it's anything but stalled....it's moving at a blistering pace....and if it wasn't for O'Brien's Task Force city staff would still be sitting on their hands because they certainly wouldn't have got any direction from the Feudal council that rules this land.

AuxTown Oct 29, 2007 6:13 PM

The people at Urbandale would have a nervous breakdown if they realized that time and time again in this forum we discuss LRT to the airport and abandoning the leg to Riverside South. Myself, I would like to see both. Not a spur line, but have the line actually loop past the airport on its way to or from Riverside South. But make no mistake, if given the option I would take the airport and have the people from Riverside South connect to the train at Lester or South Keys. As for crossing the Strandherd Bridge into Barhaven, I think it would be a crime not to do so. We would get 50x more riders from Barhaven than from Riverside South and all we have to do is cross a river?? Let's hope this fact is not ignored when council unveils their plan.

p_xavier Oct 29, 2007 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey (Post 3133338)
The people at Urbandale would have a nervous breakdown if they realized that time and time again in this forum we discuss LRT to the airport and abandoning the leg to Riverside South. Myself, I would like to see both. Not a spur line, but have the line actually loop past the airport on its way to or from Riverside South. But make no mistake, if given the option I would take the airport and have the people from Riverside South connect to the train at Lester or South Keys. As for crossing the Strandherd Bridge into Barhaven, I think it would be a crime not to do so. We would get 50x more riders from Barhaven than from Riverside South and all we have to do is cross a river?? Let's hope this fact is not ignored when council unveils their plan.


The issue that came from all of this, is for Barrhaven people, taking the 95 is much faster (20 minutes in some cases) to go DT than taking the original O-Train extension. The LRT should be in the same corridor. There is no way we can justify the cost for a Riverside South LRT, while a suburban train would be as effective for the type of travel. There is no double flow to Riverside, just one way in the morning and evening.

AuxTown Oct 29, 2007 7:18 PM

Quote:

There is no double flow to Riverside, just one way in the morning and evening.
Good point. All they need is 1 track.

p_xavier Oct 29, 2007 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey (Post 3133481)
Good point. All they need is 1 track.

Have you seen the commuter map for the O-Train and the metrO? It explains well I think. You have one line from Spratt that connects to the metrO and connects at other metrO station with a big transfer section at confederation and via station.

http://www.ottawatransit.ca/map.html

the capital urbanite Oct 29, 2007 7:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey (Post 3133338)
We would get 50x more riders from Barhaven than from Riverside South and all we have to do is cross a river?? Let's hope this fact is not ignored when council unveils their plan.

That number doesn't jive with the city's ridership projections.

lrt's friend Oct 30, 2007 3:37 AM

Quote:

The issue that came from all of this, is for Barrhaven people, taking the 95 is much faster (20 minutes in some cases) to go DT than taking the original O-Train extension. The LRT should be in the same corridor. There is no way we can justify the cost for a Riverside South LRT, while a suburban train would be as effective for the type of travel. There is no double flow to Riverside, just one way in the morning and evening.
Where did you get that 20 minute figure anyways? Lowell Green? Randall Denley? The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere. We also know that the most costly part of the old N-S project was for improvements on the existing Greenboro to Bayview portion. A relatively short extension to the airport is not going to increase ridership a lot beyond O-Train levels except by what you steel off the Transitway. If you want real ridership growth, extend the route into new areas. The fact that the old LRT route plan allowed for walk-on capabilities to large numbers of people in Barrhaven and Riverside South and the community plan included intensification along the line shows that it makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, it may be mostly one way traffic at the moment but RCMP headquarters is moving out to Barrhaven and Riverside South has a large designated employment area. Even if it takes longer by LRT for some Barrhaven residents, does it really matter? We are not going to blow up the Transitway. It will still be an option but I suspect that if you can walk to a LRT station and the ride is more comfortable, many will take that option even if it is a few minutes slower. We also have to consider that for many not travelling downtown, LRT will significantly cut travel times and these will more likely be new transit riders than the downtown folks. I am not opposed to an airport LRT terminal, but if we really want to deal with real traffic issues, it needs to also run to the southern suburbs. Remember, that the ridership studies indicated that an extension to Barrhaven would bring 40,000+ daily riders compared to 10,000-12,000 today on the O-Train. An extension to the airport only, will not accomplish this.

One last thing, Barrhaven and Riverside South residents elected 2 pro-LRT councillors. I think this means something.

I have said it before. We cannot afford to lay track on the Transitway. We gain few new riders for the money invested. We need to invest in new routes, whether east-west or north-south which expand our transit network. Replacing our existing transit network is a waste of money

waterloowarrior Oct 30, 2007 3:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend (Post 3134556)
Where did you get that 20 minute figure anyways? Lowell Green? Randall Denley? The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere. We also know that the most costly part of the old N-S project was for improvements on the existing Greenboro to Bayview portion. A relatively short extension to the airport is not going to increase ridership a lot beyond O-Train levels except by what you steel off the Transitway. If you want real ridership growth, extend the route into new areas. The fact that the old LRT route plan allowed for walk-on capabilities to large numbers of people in Barrhaven and Riverside South and the community plan included intensification along the line shows that it makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, it may be mostly one way traffic at the moment but RCMP headquarters is moving out to Barrhaven and Riverside South has a large designated employment area. Even if it takes longer by LRT for some Barrhaven residents, does it really matter? We are not going to blow up the Transitway. It will still be an option but I suspect that if you can walk to a LRT station and the ride is more comfortable, many will take that option even if it is a few minutes slower. We also have to consider that for many not travelling downtown, LRT will significantly cut travel times and these will more likely be new transit riders than the downtown folks. I am not opposed to an airport LRT terminal, but if we really want to deal with real traffic issues, it needs to also run to the southern suburbs. Remember, that the ridership studies indicated that an extension to Barrhaven would bring 40,000+ daily riders compared to 10,000-12,000 today on the O-Train. An extension to the airport only, will not accomplish this.

Good post! In addition to this, another benefit of the Barrhaven extension is the connection to Carleton (busiest stop on the line), Confederation, and Greenboro/South Keys... transit time would be much faster than taking the bus, especially during rush hour. Saying that the transitway is faster than LRT to get downtown is an oversimplification, because it assumes downtown is the only destination, and also assumes that this is just a 'commuter rail' line for 9-5ers, and not a rapid transit line which is trying to change travel patterns and shape urban form.

BlackRedGold Oct 30, 2007 4:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend (Post 3134556)
The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere.

I think the issue isn't that more Barrhaven residents drive downtown compared to Orleans residents. The issue is that more Barrhaven residents work someone other then downtown compared to Orleans residents. A person is much more likely to take transit if they work downtown then if they work somewhere with easy access to parking.

I don't know if providing other options will make a difference to someone who is living in Barrhaven and working on Moodie Drive, Riverside Drive or March Road. But a LRT line from Barrhaven to the UofO will be very attractive to all the future students living in Barrhaven. And there is a lot of those considering Barrhaven has one of the highest birth rates in Canada. As well, that line will allow future Algonquin students living in Riverside South to easily commute with a connection at Chapman Mills Marketplace.

AuxTown Oct 30, 2007 4:15 AM

Let's not forget Carleton U! It is very difficult to get to Carleton from Barhaven curently, but the LRT would go directly there.

Jamaican-Phoenix Oct 30, 2007 4:24 AM

I have said it before, and I'll say it again...

Use the existing N/S Line corridor, detour to airport before going back on course and go all the way into Barrhaven.

Extend N/S Line to Hurdman/Via.

Spur to Hull(following Tache/Laurier).

Commuter Train using seperate tracks head to Hurdman/Via.

Instead of extending Transitway along Baseline, Smyth and Innes/abandoned rail corridor, create a Baseline LRT line and an Innes/Orleans South LRT line that feeds into Downtown.

Treplow Oct 30, 2007 5:57 AM

Personally I'd like to see Ottawa follow the example of the Canada Line in Vancouver and have the N/S line split up into two separate branches near its southern terminus - one branch going to the airport and the other continuing on to Barrhaven.

waterloowarrior Oct 30, 2007 6:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treplow (Post 3134858)
Personally I'd like to see Ottawa follow the example of the Canada Line in Vancouver and have the N/S line split up into two separate branches near its southern terminus - one branch going to the airport and the other continuing on to Barrhaven.

that was part of the orignal plan, but as phase 2
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit...s/image002.jpg

here's some info from a staff report
Quote:

Phase II - Airport Access

The EA provides protection for a full double-track access to the Ottawa International Airport with connections to both the north-bound and south-bound tracks on the main line. This connection has two stations with one at the Airport and the other in the vicinity of a possible future hotel site.

Because of the low ridership forecast for this Airport access, it is recommended that initial service to the Airport be provided by bus shuttle from Lester Station. Access directly to the Airport from the nation’s capital, however, has great strategic importance and a number of people have commented through the public consultation process that this extension should be included in the first phase project.

If an interim connection were to be considered it could consist of a single track, with one station and a connection northbound (only) on the mainline. This basic connection is estimated to cost between $20-30 million.


Jamaican-Phoenix Oct 30, 2007 6:28 AM

Dammit, that just amde me want to see the N/S Line get built even moreso than before. Thanks a lot. :roll:


:haha:

p_xavier Oct 30, 2007 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend (Post 3134556)
Where did you get that 20 minute figure anyways? Lowell Green? Randall Denley? The fact of the matter is that Barrhaven transit useage is lower than most other parts of the city. This tells you a couple of things. First, the current service is not meeting the needs of the residents. Second, there is more potential for ridership growth in Barrhaven than elsewhere. We also know that the most costly part of the old N-S project was for improvements on the existing Greenboro to Bayview portion. A relatively short extension to the airport is not going to increase ridership a lot beyond O-Train levels except by what you steel off the Transitway. If you want real ridership growth, extend the route into new areas. The fact that the old LRT route plan allowed for walk-on capabilities to large numbers of people in Barrhaven and Riverside South and the community plan included intensification along the line shows that it makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, it may be mostly one way traffic at the moment but RCMP headquarters is moving out to Barrhaven and Riverside South has a large designated employment area. Even if it takes longer by LRT for some Barrhaven residents, does it really matter? We are not going to blow up the Transitway. It will still be an option but I suspect that if you can walk to a LRT station and the ride is more comfortable, many will take that option even if it is a few minutes slower. We also have to consider that for many not travelling downtown, LRT will significantly cut travel times and these will more likely be new transit riders than the downtown folks. I am not opposed to an airport LRT terminal, but if we really want to deal with real traffic issues, it needs to also run to the southern suburbs. Remember, that the ridership studies indicated that an extension to Barrhaven would bring 40,000+ daily riders compared to 10,000-12,000 today on the O-Train. An extension to the airport only, will not accomplish this.

One last thing, Barrhaven and Riverside South residents elected 2 pro-LRT councillors. I think this means something.

I have said it before. We cannot afford to lay track on the Transitway. We gain few new riders for the money invested. We need to invest in new routes, whether east-west or north-south which expand our transit network. Replacing our existing transit network is a waste of money

The numbers were from the city. They had a page with all From/To destinations.

Replacing the Transitway for these sections would offer better service, and better speed, which would increase ridership. You can't build a system on "good intentions". It needs to be backed up with facts and numbers. Of course the Barrhaven and Riverside South voted for that, (even if the polls weren't that favorable for the O-Train), they're the only one getting a good deal out of it. How can you sell a fast system like that? In the field?! Wetlands? Low ridership and extremely high cost and minimal return on investment? No wonder it was voted down.


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