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-   -   Rose Quarter Redevelopment (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=152548)

zilfondel Apr 8, 2009 11:24 PM

If we're going corporate, how about a six flags on the site? I always hate having to drive all the way down to SoCal just to ride some good rollercoasters. Might actually draw a crowd, too! ;)

holladay Apr 8, 2009 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyAlweg (Post 4184075)
Very interesting that they are going for the Live! entertainment mall plan. The LA Live! here in SoCal near the Los Angeles Convention Center is coming together nicely and has really livened up the area there. Personally, I'm just thrilled with a new Trader Vics to have Mai Tai's at when I go to the Auto Show!

But a Portland Live! mall with some big restaurants and such, like Trader Vics, Flemings Steakhouse, Lawry's Carvery, ESPNZone, Wolfgang Puck, etc. will do wonders for the convention trade for Portland.

http://www.lalive.com/index.php

This sounds disgusting. Leave it in the OC, please!

65MAX Apr 9, 2009 12:56 AM

^^^^
The OC? LA is not OC.

And if it's so disgusting, why are these Live! complexes so popular? If it doesn't appeal to you, fine, but there are 2.5 million other people here. Plus they cater heavily to tourists. That's a good fit for the area next to the convention center.

pdxman Apr 9, 2009 2:31 AM

^^^Agreed 65MAX.

urbanlife Apr 9, 2009 3:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65MAX (Post 4185426)
^^^^
The OC? LA is not OC.

And if it's so disgusting, why are these Live! complexes so popular? If it doesn't appeal to you, fine, but there are 2.5 million other people here. Plus they cater heavily to tourists. That's a good fit for the area next to the convention center.

plus we are talking about an area that is attached (so to speak) to the Lloyd District....it is very rare to hear a Portlander talk about how much they love that area....if that area became a giant tourist trap, I am sure Portlanders will keep doing what they already are doing to that area, which is ignore it and leave it for the outsiders who wish to take part in it and fool themselves into thinking they are taking in Portland culture.

holladay Apr 9, 2009 3:48 AM

But there is an opportunity to make the Lloyd District a more integrated part of the larger city. More housing, on-street retail, and neighborhood amenities could pop up in the area. What they are doing by proposing this 'Anywhere USA' pop entertainment district could destroy the potential of this area to be a great inner-Portland community.

65MAX Apr 9, 2009 6:46 AM

^^^^
Sorry, I don't understand your argument.

How does a Live! complex preclude any of the other developments you just mentioned? If anything, a "pop" entertainment complex like this could be the kick in the a$$ the Lloyd District needs to FINALLY attract more housing, more retail and more neighborhood amenities. Just because this concept didn't originate here, doesn't make it anti-Portland.

Also, and this is rhetorical, how many of the tourists visiting these Live! complexes in other cities are actually Portlanders looking for a good time? And why wouldn't they visit a Live! in their own hometown?

holladay Apr 9, 2009 7:09 AM

Cities repeatedly insist that arenas and big entertainment venues lead to large-scale urban redevelopment. While sometimes these kinds of ventures are successful, there are no guarantees that such a project in Portland would generate the type of investment you are hoping for. Furthermore, the Lloyd District is a highly fragmented portion of Portland that has suffered tremendously from tear-downs during the 60s-80s. Unlike most areas of Portland, the area feels anonymous and nondescript - due in large part to the wide roads, the anonymous hotels and office towers, and the vast empty parking lots lining many of the thoroughfares. The last thing the Lloyd District needs is another bland and anonymous development imported from another state that features essentially nothing but chain retailers and sports pubs. If the attempt is to help the area gain its own identity, the new home for the Beavers and the adjoining commercial developments need to be designed with Portland in mind. Maybe something more like a traditional mixed-use development with housing, offices, and retail spaces that aren't necessarily geared towards "destination" entertainment and dining.

MightyAlweg Apr 9, 2009 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bvpcvm (Post 4184251)
Just wondering. The names of those restaurants mean pretty much nothing to me, but looking at the web site, I can't imagine that they're anything other than fancy Olive Gardens. Are they?

Oh, my. Where to begin? :haha:

Trader Vics is simply an American icon. They were the first restaurant to tap into the Polynesian craze in the mid 1930's. They invented it really, and nurtured it into the 1950's until it took off on its own in the 60's. There used to be a FABULOUS Trader Vics from the 1950's off the lobby of the Benson Hotel on Broadway. It was still there when I lived in Portland in the 1980's, albeit in its dying days. The Benson Hotel branch closed at some point in the late 20th century, before the chain had its current renaissance, especially overseas. If they put another one back in Portland at Portland Live!, it would be a nice homecoming for them.

Lawry's The Prime Rib is another American icon. Surely you've heard of their famous prime rib restaurant in LA where the two teams playing in the Rose Bowl dine the day before the game? No? It's mid 20th century Hollywood glamour mixed with modern football royalty, epitomized. Lawry's has been succesful recently building restaurants in big cities around the USA, and their prime rib is still divine. Great French Dips too, at lunchtime in their more casual Carvery restaurants.

Woflgang Puck is Wolfgang Puck. I'm not really into it, and I wasn't into it even in the 1990's. Tourists dig it though.

ESPNZone is basically a 21st century Farrell's Ice Cream Parlour for adult sports nuts. Except with a liquore license, and not a Portland Zoo in sight. It's very popular with their target demographic though. VERY popular.

Flemings does a good steak. But you can find them in most big cities. They are kind of a Ruth's Chris wannabe, and the high priced Olive Garden description isn't too far off. But for the Convention trade, which is what would keep these restaurants in business in this location, it is popular. And neccesary.

Now, put a real Farrell's in Portland Live!, in the city where Farrell's began back in '63, and you might have something! I get the sense though that a lot of folks on this forum are too young to remember Farrell's from the 1970's however. If so, well, nevermind. :cool:

MightyAlweg Apr 9, 2009 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65MAX (Post 4185426)
The OC? LA is not OC.

Thank you. :)

Except for the weather, LA is very different from OC. Some of that is good, some of that isn't so good. But it's very different. It would be like someone lumping Portland and Seattle together as the same thing.

I'll never forget my dentist in Boston 15 years ago who knew nothing about Oregon (Orey-gohn?), and was amazed to hear that Oregon and Washington had Pacific Ocean coastline. "They're all just lumberjacks out there, aren't they? Did you have phone service when you lived there?" The man spent 8 years in college/med school and was clueless about anything west of Worcester.

The point is, provincialism can rear its head anywhere, even amongst those who may think they know better.

MightyAlweg Apr 9, 2009 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by realm0854 (Post 4185992)
Maybe something more like a traditional mixed-use development with housing, offices, and retail spaces that aren't necessarily geared towards "destination" entertainment and dining.

Sounds to me like you just described the Beaverton Round. :D

I totally get that a certain slice of 21st century Portlanders desperately want to be hip and anti-chain and anti-corporate. But when it comes to keeping a big city convention center and pro sports complex in financial good health, you are going to have to compromise just a bit.

While some may envision a LEEDS Platinum rated mixed-use, transit-oriented, work-live community of organic co-op vegan delicatessens feeding the incoming crowds for the Boat Show and the Blazers games, the reality is a tad different. The types and sheer numbers of customers that a big city convention center and a pro sports venue natually generates is going to need some large scale facilities to feed and entertain it. A Portland Live! development, probably not as big as the LA Live! version, would not only do wonders for that dead and sterile neighborhood, but also beef up business for the convention center and all the jobs and taxes the tourism/hospitality industry brings to a city like Portland.

But maybe they could also get a branch of Powell's in there, or a Stump Town Roasters or something, or an Oblation Papers or La Paloma outlet, just so it has a more "Portland" vibe to it?

Still, I'll buy the first round of Mai Tai's if Trader Vics returns to PDX there!

twofiftyfive Apr 9, 2009 2:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyAlweg (Post 4186142)
I totally get that a certain slice of 21st century Portlanders desperately want to be hip and anti-chain and anti-corporate. But when it comes to keeping a big city convention center and pro sports complex in financial good health, you are going to have to compromise just a bit.

You've hit the nail on the head. I'm not accusing realm0854 of this, but I suspect that a lot of the people opposed (the ones who post at the Merc, not the BANANAs who post at O-Live) are worried that the people in the lame city they left for Portland might hear about this, and they'll lose some hipster cred.

urbanlife is correct that the Rose Quarter/Lloyd District is not a vibrant, organic district, so (architectural arguments about MC aside) we are not losing anything by doing this. Regarding opportunity costs, I don't know whether that area has the chance to be the kind of place realm0854 talks about. It's where we plop our giant footprint buildings, like the Lloyd Center, Rose Garden, and especially OCC. Just be glad that stuff isn't downtown.

stan Apr 9, 2009 3:35 PM

I can't say I'm terribly up in arms about the proposed Live project, but I just wonder if this is the best that Portland can do? Rose Quarter is such a desolate hole now because of at least 50 years of misguided city/PDC policies. Now if the Blazers want to do this on their own, can't say I care too much. Probably won't ever go there, but not my problem. If the city is expected to subsidize this, that's a very different proposition. I can understand city residents not being thrilled about having a glorified Clackamas Town Center Food Court being built at least in part with city funds. Can't say I've been impressed with Cordish so far, their proposal for Centennial Mills was truly awful.

CUclimber Apr 9, 2009 5:15 PM

This Portland Live! thing sounds downright terrible. While I realize that you can't build a modern metropolis on hipsters, Stumptown, and independent boutique toy stores there simply has to be a better alternative than that corporate garbage.

This isn't Las Vegas, this isn't Dallas, it isn't Cincinnati, Denver, or Atlanta. It's Portland, and we have made a hell of a good name for ourselves by keeping that faux-glamorous tacky nonsense out of the city proper. If you want your California Pizza Kitchen then go down to Bridgeport (and yes, I know there used to be one on the corner of 23rd & Burnside...).

All of that "Live!" stuff is simply lowest-common-denominator schlock. I don't want to see it here, much less see it billed as a destination. We can do better.

pylon Apr 9, 2009 6:18 PM

I'm not a big fan of the Live! aesthetic either, but there seems to be the possibility of creating a synergy here, ALL WITHIN A FEW BLOCKS, that few, if any, other city would be able to offer a visitor. Let's see how it could all up...

Convention center +
Convention center hotel +
Pro-basketball +
Pro-soccer +
Entertainment complex +
SMART tower +
easy access to a vibrant downtown
(inc. renovated farmer's market
under Burnside) +
new streetcar down to OMSI +
opportunity to take light rail in
almost any direction (which means
the opportunity to see more of what
we like to call the "real" Portland) =
a total package few other convention destinations
can offer



This would hopefully offer any visitor, of whatever tastes/interests, to have something to enjoy, all conveniently located/accessed, including getting to/from the airport (one of the better airports in the country). Fewer (convention) car rentals would be necessary (a green aspect).

And just an idea- I know some Veterans aren't happy with the idea of the MC coming down. How about building the SMART tower in/near its stead and rededicating it to them?

PacificNW Apr 9, 2009 7:36 PM

↑ I don't think Pro Soccer is part of the plan.....AAA (MLB in the future) baseball stadium (which could be dedicated to the Veterans). I am not a fan of demolishing the MC but something(???) should be done with the Rose Quarter.

pylon Apr 9, 2009 8:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacificNW (Post 4186879)
↑ I don't think Pro Soccer is part of the plan.....AAA (MLB in the future) baseball stadium (which could be dedicated to the Veterans). I am not a fan of demolishing the MC but something(???) should be done with the Rose Quarter.

Yes PacNW, thanks for the correction. Conventioneers can use lightrail to get to the major league soccer stadium.

AAA ball in the near term, but if they expect a possible major league expansion in the future I hope they're factoring scaleability issues into the new AAA stadium's size, surrounding space, location and positioning deliberations going on now. I too hate to see clean iconic modernism of the MC go, but it looks like we'd better start getting used to it.

holladay Apr 9, 2009 9:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyAlweg (Post 4186142)
Sounds to me like you just described the Beaverton Round. :D

I totally get that a certain slice of 21st century Portlanders desperately want to be hip and anti-chain and anti-corporate. But when it comes to keeping a big city convention center and pro sports complex in financial good health, you are going to have to compromise just a bit.

While some may envision a LEEDS Platinum rated mixed-use, transit-oriented, work-live community of organic co-op vegan delicatessens feeding the incoming crowds for the Boat Show and the Blazers games, the reality is a tad different. The types and sheer numbers of customers that a big city convention center and a pro sports venue natually generates is going to need some large scale facilities to feed and entertain it. A Portland Live! development, probably not as big as the LA Live! version, would not only do wonders for that dead and sterile neighborhood, but also beef up business for the convention center and all the jobs and taxes the tourism/hospitality industry brings to a city like Portland.

But maybe they could also get a branch of Powell's in there, or a Stump Town Roasters or something, or an Oblation Papers or La Paloma outlet, just so it has a more "Portland" vibe to it?

Still, I'll buy the first round of Mai Tai's if Trader Vics returns to PDX there!

Aside from the slanted comments towards a significant portion of Portland's population, I can see the merits of your argument. However, to go the corporate route in 2009 would undo a lot of the solid gains this city has made in the last 20-25 years towards redefining its identity. I, for one, don't see the Lloyd District as a lost cause - I see its redevelopment as instrumental in increasing density on the Inner Eastside. But quality developments that mean something to the city versus placeless mega-developments are what we need more of in Portland.

zilfondel Apr 10, 2009 12:21 AM

I'm not exactly opposed to the tenant mix proposed for the entertainment development, as I agree with urbanlife's observation that the Lloyd District is much more corporate than the neighborhoods. One thing that this proposal would do is help create urban fabric and maybe link the Conv Center, Lloyd District, Broadway, Rose Quarter, lower Albina and Broadway areas together with more activity. Which would help even the more authentic Portland restaurants, as people would filter out from the sports games and maybe hear about that cool restaurant over on Williams or Mississippi or whatever.

I am still against tearing down the MC, as I believe its value and potential reuse is greater than tearing it down. The key words here are sustainability and cost-effectiveness.

Beavers stadium should go on the PPS site, where it will have enough room to be upgraded to Major League in the future. That would also have the benefit of giving us enough space to have a full program at the Rose Quarter site for a mix of uses. I particularly liked the MARC proposal. A greater mix of uses should make it a larger draw and more resistant to failure.

http://dobetterportland.org/wp-conte...north-day1.jpg
from dobetterportland.org

zilfondel Apr 10, 2009 12:28 AM

Memorial Coliseum: Portland's Penn Station?
by Ryan Yaden, guest opinion
Wednesday April 08, 2009, 10:07 AM
THE OREGONIAN

In 1963 New York's Penn Station was demolished to make way for Madison Square Garden. Since then generations of New Yorkers have lamented its loss. We shouldn't let Portland's Memorial Coliseum become our Penn Station.

Manhattan's original 1910 Pennsylvania Station by McKim, Mead and White was a classic of turn-of-the century Beaux Arts architecture with massive stonework and soaring spaces. But by the 1960s it was viewed as old and out of date. Obsolescence and operating expense were cited by the owners as reasons to tear it down and replace it with a new complex of modern concourses, offices and an arena.

As the great structure was razed, The New York Times wrote a heated eulogy: "Until the first blow fell, no one was convinced that Penn Station really would be demolished, or that New York would permit this monumental act of vandalism against one of the largest and finest landmarks of its age."

Today Memorial Coliseum faces a similar fate.

A new Triple A baseball stadium that was approved as part of a package to bring Major League Soccer to Portland is most often shown on the site of Memorial Coliseum. The timeline puts the need for a plan to be accepted by this fall, so there isn't much time. The site was doubtless chosen for its prime location and size, and in recent years the coliseum has generally been described as obsolete, redundant and expensive to operate.

Sound familiar?

Looking past the (very real) practical issues, we see one of the great buildings of an era. Three years prior to the demolition of Penn Station, in 1960, Skidmore Owings and Merrill completed Memorial Coliseum, dedicated to the "advancement of cultural opportunities for the community and to the memory of our veterans of all wars who made the supreme sacrifice."

It's a sophisticated glass box with a gentle curving bowl set inside for the arena. Inside on the concourse is one of the great views of downtown Portland set against the Willamette River. It signifies a hopeful and progressive time in Portland and since its dedication has hosted some of the more memorable shared experiences for the city.

Most of us who grew up in Portland have some significant childhood memory associated with the coliseum. Don't let its demolition be the lament of future generations simply because we couldn't appreciate its significance in our own time. Beaux Arts structures were thought of as irrelevant in the 1960s, and since then we have learned that a lost masterpiece like Penn Station simply cannot be re-created. It's a nonrenewable resource: When it's gone, it's gone forever.

Now, I'm an avid soccer fan and player, and I'm thrilled that Major League Soccer has chosen Portland for its expansion. Likewise, I'm looking forward to watching both baseball and soccer in stadiums that are more conducive to each activity. But that shouldn't come at the expense of one of the great buildings of its era.

It's time that Portland put its considerable energy and progressive thinking toward adapting Memorial Coliseum to a new and financially sound use. As with any large project, the political, legal and development issues are formidable. It's a difficult problem, but not more challenging than what we have solved in the past.

For the same reasons, people said we couldn't draw a line around the city to preserve our rural lands from development. But we did, and the Urban Growth Boundary was born. People said we couldn't use federal transportation funds for mass transit instead of highways. But we did, and the MAX light-rail system was born.

We have a legacy of accomplishing unconventional change when it improves the quality of our environment.

Go visit the coliseum if you haven't recently. Step back a moment and appreciate the elegant structure for what it is. Look at the details and picture the spirit of that era. Stand on the concourse and look at the city that has grown up so much since 1960.

Yes, the building is a little worse for wear, but for a structure that's almost 50 years old, that's to be expected. With any luck, it won't be the last time you see it.

In the end, Penn Station's demolition did have a silver lining in becoming the example of how devastating lost heritage can be. I hope that won't be the legacy of Memorial Coliseum.

Ryan Yaden of North Portland is an architect and urban designer with Firm 151.


http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/in...tlands_pe.html


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