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-   -   Toronto's new 25km Eglinton subway line breaks ground. To be completed by 2020. (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195118)

yaletown_fella Nov 12, 2011 4:36 PM

The LRT isn't going to have cables overhead. Afaik it will be similar to Vancouver's Canada Line.

I'm still suprised they aren't using foreign labor and pushing for a more reasonable completion date in 2016.

Jasonhouse Nov 12, 2011 5:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella (Post 5474968)
2020, jeez gonna take a lifetime.

Are there laws in place against using cheap foreign labour? What's up with the slack timeline? Compared to the Canada Line this is a joke.

Here in the states, the longer a project is dragged out, the more money the financiers can extract from a project they really have nothing to do with.

ssiguy Nov 12, 2011 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella (Post 5477796)
The LRT isn't going to have cables overhead. Afaik it will be similar to Vancouver's Canada Line.

I'm still suprised they aren't using foreign labor and pushing for a more reasonable completion date in 2016.

Vancouver's Canada Line is NOT LRT nor Bombardier ALRT like the Expo and Millenium lines. It is a standard metro/subway system using standard metro/subway cars on third rail. It is considered "light metro" due to it's small stations and limited capacity but it is a subway in all senses of the word. A standard Toronto subway could be used on the Canada Line.
As far as the LRT arugument about having more flexibility that is completely true. This is why the Eglinton Crosstown was originally LRT.........about half of the line was to be tunneled and half at grade therefore it was the only option. The new line, howver, will be completely grade/road separated by a combination of tunnel, exclusive rail corridor, and elevation. The benefit of LRT technology has been completely eradicated.
I asked Metrolinx why it was LRT and they said in case it was extended at grade. That would make sense except Metrolinx has stated the entire route will be automated.............you can't have both. The woman at Metrolinx even admitted that LRT is the most expensive system to tunnel.
To make matters worse they are going to have to not only build a new garage but an entirely new maintenance and control centre as these LRT trains have a different gauge than the downtown streetcar replacements......they are incompatible. This is not the case if they used standard subway or SkyTrain cars as both have this infrastructure in place.
This is not 26 NEW km of rapid transit but rather 20 km as they are ripping up 6km of current SkyTrain line and simply replacing it with slower, and less capacity LRT.
Get this.............they are spending a whopping $1.2 billion just to transfer the tracks of a tiny 6km of track from SkyTrain to LRT yet the stations and rail right of way are already built!!! That's $200 million to replace track and they state it will take 3 years to do it!
They don't want SkyTrain any more as they say it is uncomfortable and unreliable in the winter. That is absolute BS. All Toronto has to do is put in the cheap rail heating mechanisms, upgrade a couple small underpasses to use the very comfortable, smooth, quiet, reliable, fast new SkyTrain MK11 trains. The trains they use now haven't been built for over 10 years. By just doing that they could save a cool $1 billion and SkyTrain is much cheaper and faster to build elevated than LRT if they ever come to their senses and elevate the line as opposed to tunneling for 6 km thru an industrial area.
It's reasons like this why every transit project in Toronto costs twice as much to build and twice as long to build it.
This stupid mentality has lead to Toronto over the last 25 years having built just 1.2km of new rapid transit for every 500,000 new residents.
Toronto dolls out transit infrastructure funds like Montreal dolls out it's road repairs.................legendary corruption, very high prices, and poor quality in return.

M II A II R II K Nov 12, 2011 7:18 PM

Then I guess they should have built it as a subway, with 3 or 4 car trainsets until more is needed. Plus how is an LRT tunnel more expensive anyway....

caltrane74 Nov 12, 2011 7:22 PM

Well that 500,000 increase over the past 30 years has been outside the 416, so downtowners have been somewhat lucky, and this line and the new streetcar trains with double the capacity of the existing fleet give us a chance to catch up.

I think with these new streetcars-trains on College/King/Queen etc, there will be upgrades because these things are super long, and more than half are running in traffic.

nname Nov 12, 2011 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habfanman (Post 5477603)
• It costs more to build. A lot more. Subways cost an average of $300 million per km. LRT is $100 million per km for surface routes and $250 million for underground routes.

Its funny that crosstown line would actually cost $325 million per km!

yaletown_fella Nov 12, 2011 8:22 PM

As I've said last year, they should have cancelled the Spadina extension so they could fund a 3-4 car low capacity proper Eglinton subway. A big problem and contributer to costs is slack local pensioner labor. Canada Line was able to come in UNDER BUDGET due to the use of cheap foreign skilled workers.

Will this LRT average at least 50km/hour ?

The Chemist Nov 13, 2011 1:50 AM

Quote:

Subways get their power from an electrified rail below the train – this requires larger stations, more infrastructure and safety separation. An LRV gets its power from a cable over head, like a streetcar.
No. There are plenty of heavy rail Metro systems in the world that get power from overhead catenary rather than third rail.

tayser Nov 13, 2011 3:05 AM

^ yeah I laughed when I read that.

North Americans - over-classification for classification's sake.

SFUVancouver Nov 13, 2011 3:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella (Post 5477956)
... Canada Line was able to come in UNDER BUDGET due to the use of cheap foreign skilled workers.

SELI was the tunnel boring contractor brought on board by SNC-Lavalin to build the Canada Line. To the best of my recollection there were only about 50 or so tunnelling contractors brought in from abroad to lead the tunnelling phase of the project, so it was not as if the entire project was foreign labour. There were more than 1500 people working on the project at its peak and if there were 50 tunnelling contractors that only comprises 2% of the project team. Cut-and-cover tunnelling was used for most of the below grade sections and local labour was used for that, along with local labour for the elevated and at-grade segments, plus station construction. The trains are South-Korean in manufacture and obviously Rotem (Hyundai Heavy Industries) sent people to oversee their delivery and commissioning. Some systems integration people from the Docklands Light Railway came over from the UK on contract to set up the train automation system.

Anyway, bottom line, foreign labour was not the reason the Canada Line came in at about $110 million per km; less than 1/3rd the cost for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. And not for nothing, but the technical challenges for the Eglinton LRT are pretty much limited to crossing the Don River. (Here's a hint: build a bridge!) In Vancouver they built the Canada Line in a seismically active zone, which alone requires more demanding engineering than what is required in the GTA, and the Canada Line was built through the heart of the CBD, crossed three bodies of water using two bridges, including Canada's first extra-dosed cable-stay bridge, and a bored tunnel. Plus they built upon sandy alluvial ground on the Sea Island and Richmond sections where constructing elevated train columns and stations was previously said to be impossible.

Jebby Nov 13, 2011 4:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chemist (Post 5478188)
No. There are plenty of heavy rail Metro systems in the world that get power from overhead catenary rather than third rail.

Madrids subway is completely powered by overhead catenery.

whiteford Nov 13, 2011 7:59 PM

omg its a subway already. haha. if it has underground stations then its a full fledged subway system. the type of train system implemented is actually redundant.

M II A II R II K Nov 13, 2011 9:51 PM

Just call it an LRT subway and be done with it.

The Chemist Nov 13, 2011 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galeforcewinds (Post 5478531)
Madrids subway is completely powered by overhead catenery.

So are all 11 lines on the Shanghai Metro.

caltrane74 Nov 13, 2011 11:58 PM

http://torontoist.com/wp-content/upl...streetcar1.jpg
kld86 - UT

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthr...etcars/page117

I went to see the new streetcars on the weekend, and... I so can't believe this is only half of the streetcar, its so long, I can't imagine running in mixed traffic on the Streetcars half dozen or so routes downtown. It's gonna be madness with these trains in the middle of our streets. But the added capacity is required the streetcars are so packed and we're building skyscrapers to kingdom come, we need this capacity badly.

The first line to get the new streetcars will be the Spadina /Harbourfront LRT ( 2013/2014)- which is already separated from traffic, I have to assume the other lines will get special treatment in the future to separate from the auto traffic.

Doady Nov 14, 2011 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiteford (Post 5478713)
omg its a subway already. haha. if it has underground stations then its a full fledged subway system. the type of train system implemented is actually redundant.

No it isn't. First of all, many subway stations in Toronto are above ground. Secondly, the subway/RT system in Toronto has fare-paid zones. Along with grade separation, the fare-paid zones is the defining characteristic of subway/RT system. If this LRT doesn't have fare-paid zones, it's simply not part of subway/RT system.

caltrane74 Nov 14, 2011 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady (Post 5480187)
No it isn't. First of all, many subway stations in Toronto are above ground. Secondly, the subway/RT system in Toronto has fare-paid zones. Along with grade separation, the fare-paid zones is the defining characteristic of subway/RT system. If this LRT doesn't have fare-paid zones, it's simply not part of subway/RT system.


So you're saying the underground sections will not be fare paid. You will have to hold a ticket on the LRT for a conductor? - I don't think so. - You will have to pay to enter the underground platforms of the Eglinton LRT, either there will be a collector on duty or you will have to purchase a ticket from a machine before you can enter the platform underground.

LeeWilson Nov 15, 2011 1:18 AM

I would have to assume you can transfer from the other subways to this line without needing a paper transfer. It would be kind of ridiculous otherwise, since you don't even need a transfer to get on the bus at Eglinton and Eglinton West.

lrt's friend Nov 15, 2011 4:04 AM

Isn't the choice of LRT technology relate to the Phase II extension to Pearson airport? Using any third rail technology would require the Phase II extension to be entirely grade separated. Would this make Phase II cost prohibitive?

caltrane74 Nov 15, 2011 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend (Post 5480736)
Isn't the choice of LRT technology relate to the Phase II extension to Pearson airport? Using any third rail technology would require the Phase II extension to be entirely grade separated. Would this make Phase II cost prohibitive?

That's a good point.

- Remember this line was supposed to be above ground, but Rob Ford didn't want these streetcars in the middle of the street. So it got buried underground.


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