But the metro is 9 cars long.

But the metro is 9 cars long.

Nothing is stopping the TTC from adding additional cars to the trainsets. I guess they will let the ridership determine system upgrades.

The tunnel being built will be able to support a full subway if needed.

Platform length?

If the current project isn't scheduled to be completed until 2020 (and will guaranteed be late and way over budget), how many eons will have to pass before it will ever be upgraded?

Then why is everyone (save you) calling it an LRT? Why is the link to the video that you provided titled "Construction Underway on Eglinton LRT"? Why is the name of the project 'Crosstown LRT'? Why don't they use subway cars instead of LRTs?

Why? Because it's an underground LRT, not a subway.

Former TTC Chief calls tunnel for Eglinton LRT "insane"

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/07/f...on_lrt_insane/

Former TTC Chief General Manager David Gunn, who was brought on by the TTC as an unpaid consultant to aid with the review of its 2012 budget, had some harsh words regarding the decision to bury the Eglinton LRT. "Low-floor streetcars in a tunnel will cost you more than a subway while delivering less. I can't for the life of me figure out how this decision was made," he told the Globe and Mail in reference to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, a project which recently broke ground.

Gunn cites the fact that LRT cars are more expensive and require bigger tunnels than subways, but can't provide the same capacity. Metrolinx, on the other hand, claims that smaller stations and the ability to repurpose the Scarborough RT makes the current plan the better option. The former chief characterizes this rationale as "nonsense."
And that's not the only criticism of the TTC Gunn was willing to share with the Globe. Here are some highlights:

[...]

Eglinton LRT ready to launch

http://www.thestar.com/news/ttc/arti...eady-to-launch

Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter

Along Eglinton Ave., they’ve been waiting nearly 20 years for someone to replace the subway that former Premier Mike Harris cancelled in 1995.

This summer, that wait will finally be rewarded when the TTC starts digging the first tunneling shaft for the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown Light Rail Transit (LRT) line.

The $8.2 billion provincially funded LRT will be wholly owned by Ontario and is slated for completion in 2020. Construction will begin around Black Creek Dr., where, next summer, the first of four enormous tunnel-boring machines will be launched from that pit.

The LRT will run about 20 kilometres underground to Kennedy station, where it will continue seamlessly above-ground for 6 kilometres on the route of what is now the Scarborough RT.

The Toronto Star asked Jack Collins, Metrolinx vice-president for rapid transit implementation, about the project:

Given the Eglinton line will run mostly underground, how does LRT differ from subway?

Subway trains have six cars. LRTs will be run in three-car trains.

“A subway train is about 145 metres long and we are 97 metres long. Because of that you can get more people in a subway. Capacity is a difference, but we’re sizing the capacity to meet the needs of the Eglinton line and future growth, and we don’t feel a subway is necessary,” Collins said.

The original LRT plan called for only an 11-kilometre tunnel in the middle. With the switch, the trains are now expected to travel at subway speeds, averaging 34 km/h versus 22 km/h. The trip between Jane and Kennedy will take about 25 minutes, rather than 45.

[...]

Now lets argue about why- although they may all be apples to you- some apples are know as 'oranges' to the rest of the us.

How about we call it an LRT that runs underground.

This is semantics.

I'm sure when its running most people in Toronto will refer to it as the subway...just with different cars.

Cost aside an LRT, underground, running at subway speeds is a lot different than one above ground. It's basically a hybrid subway-LRT.

An underground LRT IS a subway. Is this concept really that difficult for you to understand? I gave you the definition of a subway, and you STILL don`t seem to be able to comprehend that a subway is an underground train. Heavy rail or light rail is irrelevant. If you can`t understand this than god help you.


I never said it wasn`t an LRT. You think that LRT and subway are mutually exclusive. You are wrong. Again. I even gave you the definition of a subway, but you don`t seem to be able to understand it.


No, I`d rather not argue about why. YOU started this argument. Not me. I called it a subway. You just couldn`t leave that alone. Just like you trolled the other Toronto thread in City Discussions and got it shut down, you`re trolling this thread too. I don`t get why. I don`t troll your little Montreal threads, so there`s no reason for you to troll any of my Toronto threads. Unless you just have nothing better to do. Which seems to be the case.

Once more for those who have trouble reading:

subway (plural subways)
(North America) An underground railway, especially for mass transit of people in urban areas.


-----------------

If you can tell me how it does not meet this definition, go ahead. Otherwise you`re wrong.

lets just call underground lrt mini-subway... as in it has no where near the capacity of a traditional heavy rail subway, but still runs underground and can be configured in a similar manner.. more discussion about the actual line would be great...thanks.

I agree. There was no reason for habfanman`s nonsense about it not being a subway to begin with. It IS a subway, and whoever told him it`s not is an idiot.

apparently this SUBWAY is one of the most expensive infrastructure projects in the world, running in the high ends of 8 billion.

It doesn't matter guys, because I have evidence that underground light rail is a subway. An example is the MBTA's Green Line. It has streetcar like cars, but yet it runs underground, and therefore is called a subway.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ParkStreet.jpg

SkyTrain in Vancouver is considered subway/metro eventhough relatively little of the first 2 lines {50km} is underground. Technically it is Advanced LRT but the real thing that matters is that is a medium to high capacity system with total grade separation. If any part of a line does not have this then it is LRT in the traditional sense of the word.
That said David Gunn is right......it is a waste of money as LRT tunnels are more expensive to build due to needing more space for the overhead electrical supply and this also requires more labour. LRT trains also have a lower life expectancy. They lie by saying subways need longer stations as they can be built with LRT size stations {the Eglinton line stations will be 100 meters roughly 5 subway cars} yet subway cars would have higher capacity.
Metrolinx refuses to answer questions as to why it is LRT technology. Of the four types of technolgy available..............standard metro/subway, Bombardier SkyTrain, monorail, or LRT, LRT is the most expensive to tunnel with the lowest capacity and shortest life expectancy of the rolling track.

The Green Line is not a subway, it's a streetcar that runs underground when it reaches downtown Boston. It's also the least reliable part of the "T".

If you live in Toronto, this should be a cause for concern. You're paying a first-rate amount of money for a second-rate LRT line.

By your definition, the 509 and 510 streetcars are also subway lines as they go underground at Queen's Quay.

Transit lines are defined by the equipment they use, not wether they go underground or not. Capacity, speed, stop placement are also issues. The "L" in LRT denotes it as "Light" Rail Transit- not subway (HRT). Subways, LRTs, streetcars can all operate above, at or below grade. The Eglinton LRT will do all three but will remain LRT throughout. Does the TTC subway become LRT when it operates above ground? No, therefore the Eglinton LRT will not become subway when it operates below ground. It will enter a 'subway' (much as we enter a 'subway' when we drive through a tunnel or walk under an overpass), but it will not magically transform itself into a subway when it does so.

For further information:

http://www.torontoenvironment.org/ca...eetcarvssubway

What is the difference between streetcar, LRT and subway?

• LRT vehicles are smaller and slower than subways, but travel faster and carry more passengers than streetcars or buses.

• Subways are larger and longer – a subway train can hold up to 1500 passengers (in ‘crush’ conditions). An LRV can hold 255 people in each vehicle, and it can be linked into a train of two or more cars. Streetcars carry between 75 and 100 people per vehicle.

• Like a subway, LRT vehicles can be boarded through all doors at ground level, making them wheelchair accessible and reducing loading time.

• Subways get their power from an electrified rail below the train – this requires larger stations, more infrastructure and safety separation. An LRV gets its power from a cable over head, like a streetcar.

• LRT can run aboveground at street level, like streetcars, however they operate in separate lanes, meaning they are not affected by car and truck traffic.

• LRT can also run underground, like subways, as is planned for much of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT.

• LRT stops are planned to be about 500 metres apart, slightly farther than streetcar stops (about 250 metres apart), but closer than subway stops.

• Older streetcars, like the ones we see in Toronto today, are smaller than LRVs, and require “loops” to turn around. LRVs are larger, and are “double ended” like subways, so they can change direction quickly without loops.


Are LRVs slower than subways?

• LRVs run at an average of 27km/h, slightly slower than subways which average 32 km/h, and faster than buses and streetcars that travel in mixed traffic (17 km/h). LRVs run at speeds similar to subways when they are underground (as with much of the Eglinton LRT line)

• The main reason for the speed difference between subways and LRT is that LRVs have more stops. Subway stations are also more expensive to build, so fewer stops are built with longer distances between them.


Why not just build subways?

• It costs more to build. A lot more. Subways cost an average of $300 million per km. LRT is $100 million per km for surface routes and $250 million for underground routes.

• It costs more to maintain. Not only are underground stations more expensive to build, but, they also cost more to light, keep safe and secure, and clean.

• By spending less money per kilometre to build, our money literally takes us further. By some estimates, the Transit City plan would provide 10 times as many people with access to transit than the subway extension Mayor Ford is proposing.

• Speed is a trade off with access. Subways go faster by providing stations further apart. LRT stops can be closer together, meaning shorter walks and easier access.

• LRT can be built faster. Some lines could open in as little as two years. The existing Sheppard subway extension took a decade.

• Subway isn’t needed everywhere. While an area like Finch West or Sheppard East badly needs more service than a bus can provide, it does not have nearly the amount of ridership required to justify a subway (usually about 20,000 passengers per hour in rush hour is the “floor” for subways. The Yonge line sees about 30,000 passengers in the morning rush hour. The Finch West LRT has fewer than 3,000.

• Being above ground is good for business. When the ride is fast and smooth, passengers like being above ground, where they look can out the window, and see passing businesses as they go by. Some studies have shown that subways, especially when stations are spaced far apart (as on the Sheppard subway line) can actually hurt local business by discouraging passengers from getting off to shop and dine.

• Subway construction takes longer and requires digging large sections of road, and thus is much more disruptive for local businesses, residents, car and bus traffic and pedestrians.

Wrong. I already gave you the definition of a subway. Twice. If you can show that this line doesn't meet that definition, than you're right. Otherwise you're wrong. Subway means underground rail. It does NOT mean heavy rail. We've been trying to explain this to you ad nauseum, but you cannot seem to comprehend this for whatever reason.

The subway makes sense for accommodating short range rapid transit in addition to further trips like the Bloor-Danforth subway which makes the closer stop spacing more worthwhile. Eglinton doesn't have that kind of density to warrant having a subway so LRT is the way to go and doesn't waste empty space.

Queen Street should get a line too, probably warranting a subway for it's short range dense trips.