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-   -   Had No Idea Pensacola Was Larger Than Mobile (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164132)

alon504 Jan 26, 2009 3:36 AM

Had No Idea Pensacola Was Larger Than Mobile
 
It seems weird driving to Florida and going through Mobile---obviously Mobile is a larger city, but, metro Pensacola is significantly larger than Metro Mobile population wise. I was reading the almanac today and came across some interesting stats. I think Mobile is a lovely place, but, I was shocked to see the population stats Says in 2007 Pensacola Metro had 453,451 and Mobile had 404,406. And get this...Tallahassee had 352,319. I thought Tallahassee was larger than Pensacola! I guess things don't always seem as they are when you are driving through on an interstate. Interesting stuff....not significant stuff, but, interesting.

tascalisa Jan 26, 2009 3:50 AM

Well, the big difference between Pensacola and Mobile is that Mobile's metro only has one county in it, while Pens.'s has more than one. It's always puzzled me how Baldwin County isn't included in Mobile's metro area. I guess a larger amount work in Baldwin than Mobile. But, it of course would be completely incorrect to say that Mobile didn't have an enormous impact on Mobile. Eventually, I think we'll see Baldwin be included which would bring the Mobile metro to over 550,000.

SlidellWx Jan 26, 2009 4:04 AM

I didn't know Baldwin was not included in Mobile's metro stats. That doesn't make sense to me. I associate the Daphne/Spanish Fort area with Mobile. It would be the same as saying that Mandeville and Slidell aren't part of the New Orleans metro area. That's just plain wrong. The census bureau does some strange things, and this would be near the top.

BlessedMobile Jan 26, 2009 4:10 AM

makes no sense
 
Pensacola is the largest city in the Escambia/Santa Rosa area. I guess at 53,000 they must be "larger than Mobile". I "had no idea" that I was driving through such a metropolitan area when I pass the Cordova Mall.:shrug:

NitekKetin Jan 26, 2009 4:35 AM

What's impressive to me is that a city the size of Pensacola can command a metro of more than 450K.

Yes, Pensacola is techically a larger metro, despite not seeming like one.

tascalisa Jan 26, 2009 4:56 AM

Yea, Baldwin is considered the Daphne-Fairhope Micropolitan Area. But, it's included in the Mobile-Daphne-Fairhope Combined Statistical Area. This is what happens when you're dealing with huge coastal counties. The large land area of the counties brings communities in that aren't even influenced by that main city.

SouthSky Jan 26, 2009 5:09 AM

It's seriously a travesty of statistics not including Baldwin county in Mobile's MSA. If a county in Alabama is considered one of Atlanta's metro counties then this should definitely be defined.

B'ham Bound Jan 26, 2009 7:15 AM

While it does seem weird that Baldwin isn't included in Mobile's MSA, the decision to add a county is determined primarily by one thing: workforce commuting patterns. As it stands, there simply aren't enough people from Baldwin who are traveling to Mobile for work. It sucks but we have to deal with it in Birmingham too (Tuscaloosa country is in neither the MSA or CMSA).

nimsjus Jan 26, 2009 1:24 PM

Work patterns do supposedly play a large part in the equation, which is why this makes even less sense to us here in Mobile. We are about to build a billion dollar bridge that could hurt our port and downtown revitalization efforts in order to accomodate all the people commuting to work from Baldwin Co to Mobile. Not to mention that we already have I-10 and HWY 90 leading into 6 lanes worth of tunnel (Wallace and Bankhead Tunnels). Im pretty sure there are a signifficant number of people commuting from Baldwin Co to Mobile Co. I see almost as many 5 tags on a daily basis as I do 2 tags. This is the equivilent of Shelby Co not Being in Bhams MSA.

10101000 Jan 26, 2009 3:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alon504 (Post 4047889)
It seems weird driving to Florida and going through Mobile---obviously Mobile is a larger city, but, metro Pensacola is significantly larger than Metro Mobile population wise. I was reading the almanac today and came across some interesting stats. I think Mobile is a lovely place, but, I was shocked to see the population stats Says in 2007 Pensacola Metro had 453,451 and Mobile had 404,406. And get this...Tallahassee had 352,319. I thought Tallahassee was larger than Pensacola! I guess things don't always seem as they are when you are driving through on an interstate. Interesting stuff....not significant stuff, but, interesting.

Really, stop trying to pick fights Sean, it is ridiculous. Pensacola metro is not that big. I mean, Escambia County Florida is made up of very, very small communities and the city of Pensacola is more like a large town. Anyone living in the South Alabama area knows that, and parts of Baldwin are included in Mobile's metro population. If all of Baldwin and Mobile were included, the total would be around 600,000.

atlantaguy Jan 26, 2009 4:12 PM

I don't know, (Tim). Look at the huge difference in air service between the two cities. PNS blows Moblie out of the water in that department.

10101000 Jan 26, 2009 4:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlantaguy (Post 4048676)
I don't know, (Tim). Look at the huge difference in air service between the two cities. PNS blows Moblie out of the water in that department.

That does not mean anything. Look at Montgomery, small airport as well. Baton Rouge, small regional airport. That does not mean anything.

nashvol85 Jan 26, 2009 5:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NitekKetin (Post 4048027)
What's impressive to me is that a city the size of Pensacola can command a metro of more than 450K.

Yes, Pensacola is techically a larger metro, despite not seeming like one.

There are a ton of CDP's in Escambia county, though, so Pensacola's 53,000 or so people is a little deceiving. Pensacola city limits only take up about 23 sq miles, which is tiny.

Population of CDP's bordering Pensacola (or close in):

Bellview - 21,201 (11.8 sq mi)
Brent - 22,257 (10.4)
Ensley - 18,752 (12.3)
Ferry Pass - 27,176 (14.1)
Gonzalez - 11,365 (15.3)
Goulding - 4,484 (1.2)
Myrtle Grove - 17,211 (6.6)
Warrington - 15,207 (6.6)
West Pensacola - 21,939 (7.4)

Pensacola - 56,255 (22.7)

If Pensacola were to suddenly annex it's unincorporated neighbors, it would have a population of about 216,000 in an area of about 108 square miles (density of about 2,000/sq mi)....which seems more appropriate for a city supporting a 440-450,000 metro.

Mobile's figures for the 2000 census give it a population of 198,915 in an area of 118 square miles....so the two places are strikingly similar if you put them in that context.



However, having been to both places, Mobile feels bigger than Pensacola anyways.

tascalisa Jan 26, 2009 6:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlantaguy (Post 4048676)
I don't know, (Tim). Look at the huge difference in air service between the two cities. PNS blows Moblie out of the water in that department.

There is also a lot more development along the Flordia coast near Pens. Mobile is pretty far off from the shores in Alabama so flying isn't as big of a transit source as it is in Pens.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Escambia County, AL included in Pens's CSA? I might be wrong, it's been a while since I've looked at the maps. But, if it is, it's quite ridiculous.

Mobile and Pens both are still growing, in a few years, I think it'll be a little big more clear and make a lot more since.

Port_of_Bama Jan 26, 2009 6:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alon504 (Post 4047889)
It seems weird driving to Florida and going through Mobile---obviously Mobile is a larger city, but, metro Pensacola is significantly larger than Metro Mobile population wise. I was reading the almanac today and came across some interesting stats. I think Mobile is a lovely place, but, I was shocked to see the population stats Says in 2007 Pensacola Metro had 453,451 and Mobile had 404,406. And get this...Tallahassee had 352,319. I thought Tallahassee was larger than Pensacola! I guess things don't always seem as they are when you are driving through on an interstate. Interesting stuff....not significant stuff, but, interesting.



Metro Mobile MSA is just Mobile County only which is 404,406 While Pensacola`s MSA includes Escambbia County, Santar Rosa County and Okaloosa County that all makes up a populatiopn of 453,451. Since Baldwin county( 172,000 +) is no longer considerd a part of Mobile`s MSA but CSA which is a combind population of around 580,000.


Mobile County(MSA) 404, 406 is larger in population compared to Escambia County(Pensacola) which is 306,407. the other two counties that make up there MSA puts them on a larger MSa than Mobile.

fvcrew22 Jan 26, 2009 8:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Port_of_Bama (Post 4049043)
Metro Mobile MSA is just Mobile County only which is 404,406 While Pensacola`s MSA includes Escambbia County, Santar Rosa County and Okaloosa County that all makes up a populatiopn of 453,451. Since Baldwin county( 172,000 +) is no longer considerd a part of Mobile`s MSA but CSA which is a combind population of around 580,000.


Mobile County(MSA) 404, 406 is larger in population compared to Escambia County(Pensacola) which is 306,407. the other two counties that make up there MSA puts them on a larger MSa than Mobile.



Well that not exactly right. Pensacola's MSA is only Escambia and Santa Rosa Counties (453,451), Okaloosa county is not part of that. If you were to add Okaloosa county, Pensacola's MSA would be 634,950.

That being said, look at the size of these counties. Mobile county has 1,233 sq. miles of land, Escambia only has 662sq. miles. Baldwin has 1,596sq miles and Santa Rosa has 1,017sq miles.

Escambia counties density is 462 people per sq. mile.
Mobile counties is 327 people per sq. mile.

If you put Mobile & Baldwin counties together the pop. is 576,175 and (2829sq miles of land.) If you add Okaloosa to Escambia and Santa Rosa counties the pop. is 634,950 and (2615sq. miles of land.) If Baldwin county was added to Mobile MSA and Okaloosa was added to Pensacola's MSA, Mobile's MSA would still be a larger area and have a lower population.

Port_of_Bama Jan 26, 2009 9:12 PM

:previous: True I can`t argue with you on that my friend but what I don`t get is why Baldwin county is not inclded in Mobile`s MSA. We are risking our economy to accommadate them so if there is a problem with them coming over here well there should be large enough commute for them to be included.I beleieve that Washington County, Alabama (17,651) should be included in the MSA or CSA as well along with Jackson County(130,577) ,Green(13,103), and George County (21,828)Mississippi should atleast be included in the Mobile CSA. Washington County, Al, Jackson,Goerge,and Green County, Miss has enough commuters tha shop and workk heavely in Mobile. I live in Semmes and I see Gerorge and Green County, Miss tags all the time where else will they shop or work the two bordders Mobile, County.


With that being said if Washington County,Green ,George and Jackson were included in Mobiles CSA wich it should we would be around 759,324. I am not going to debate with someone who is not from the Mobile /Mississippi/ Pensacola area about that.

alon504 Jan 27, 2009 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (Tim) (Post 4048650)
Really, stop trying to pick fights Sean, it is ridiculous. Pensacola metro is not that big. I mean, Escambia County Florida is made up of very, very small communities and the city of Pensacola is more like a large town. Anyone living in the South Alabama area knows that, and parts of Baldwin are included in Mobile's metro population. If all of Baldwin and Mobile were included, the total would be around 600,000.

??? I'm not trying to pick fights. That is silly. You are the only one that is thinking about fighting on this board. It didn't cross my mind. All of the discussion is civil.

In any case, I can clearly see the argument about Baldwin County in regards to Mobile. I'll tell you, once you enter that county, it still feels like you are in Metro Mobile. It is all based on commuters into a central business area. It's pretty likely that Tangipahoa Parish in Louisiana and even Pearl River county could be added to Metro New Orleans in 2010--esp. since Hurricane Katrina escalated migration to these areas and that would add 180,000 to Metro New Orleans right there. And Baldwin county could be added to Mobile. They only make these types of changes every ten years. We'll see. I have several relatives that live in Carriere and Picayune in Pearly River County, Mississippi that have commuted to New Orleans for over a decade now.

elb401 Jan 27, 2009 2:25 AM

I believe they took B-county out of the metro about a year or two after the 2000 census, based on estimations. They tend to estimate a lot and get it wrong. But I think the commuting of jobs to Mobile from baldwin has to increase by about 2% to be including again. And with the service jobs decreasing in baldwin this might be true again by 2010.

Muskavon Jan 27, 2009 4:19 AM

Thanks nashvol, you put out the list exactly I was thinking of doing after reading this thread for the first time last night. Everything you listed (and several others such as Gulf Beach, Perdido, etc that are not) are a part of a continuous sprawling city that I'd challenge anyone to find the beginning of one or the end of another where they connect. Not that the City has ever been all that aggressive in trying to annex areas, but for 20 years now it is next to impossible to do in Florida so don't expect the official "56k, so it's a tiny little town" attitude to ever go away. Obviously the place is multiples bigger than the city limit population but I'm not gonna go crazy and count the number of Wal-Marts, Home Depots, McDonalds and Starbucks, GE plants, Solutia plants, etc. trying to say this place isn't comparable to something like Dothan. I'll just say "believe it or not".

Also should throw in that neither Esc Cnty, AL nor Okaloosa is included in the 450k (to correct that). Now honestly I sorta feel Milton (and Jay, Century, etc) is a bit of a rural insular community that isn't necessarily as interactive with Pensacola as, say, Daphne is with Mobile. But at least as interactive as, say, Gulf Shores is with Mobile. But Pace, Gulf Breeze, PBeach, the Key etc...those places which may have a ditch of water separating them from the City...but they really only exist as communities of the Pensacola. Pace would still be 8 people and 3,000 cows without people running over there from Pensa to "get away" (or whatever their strange motivations are). Now it is a sprawling nightmare of traffic and box stores.

That said, the way we put MSA's together as whole counties may be the simplest way to go about it, but it isn't really all that accurate (as in my example above). But the same could be said in Baldwin County. Granted, the large majority of Baldwin residents live at the east foot of the Mobile Bay Bridge....but places like Seminole, Lillian, even Orange Beach and some others, IMO, have far more connection and interaction with Pensacola (or only exist because of) than Mobile. My point is, if you see the Pensa MSA as imperfect and painting an invalid picture of its population, adding the whole of Baldwin County to Mobile isn't any more accurate a picture.

Ok, I feel weird sitting here trying to defend Pensacola from being chalked up as the equivalent of Biloxi in size. Let me go back to the main Pensa thread and go back to griping about how we can't get our own steel mill or other economic development as usual. ;)


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