This notion of tearing down the viaducts shows how uncreative the city is. There is plenty of room available along NEFC to develop without their removal. Mr. X's post perfectly shows what can be done and how viaducts can actually be an interesting and functioning part of an urban fabric. All this councilor want to do is tear down the ducts so the city can pick some more low fruit by building another bland Yaletown to make a quick buck in development, but then what?
The funniest thing is they are making this a big story on news 1130 as if it is almost a done deal to tear them down. |
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Mr.x, the Toronto example doesn't serve your purposes all that well. The Gardiner Expressway has proven to be an enormous headache for that city in trying to revitalize their extremely lackluster waterfront. Toronto is a classic example of what expressways do to a city; Seattle would be another good one. Did any of you bother reading lightrail's link? Here it is again in case you forgot: http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009...p-save-a-city/ Although Vancouver is perfectly able to go it's own way with urban planning (it's proven rather more capable than other cities in this regard), if it were to take any cues from other cities, I would rather they emulate Seoul or San Francisco than Toronto or Seattle. My hunch is that most Torontonians would agree. Again, I advocate tolling non-commercial and -industrial vehicles on the viaducts as an intermediate measure to see how badly these things are actually needed. Worst case scenario? This downtrodden "working class" will simply fork out the extra cash instead of taking transit, and the city can put the revenue towards something else worthwhile that actually beautifies the city. |
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The Creekside Park expansion poses as a major problem to making the viaducts more of a lively and active place. For one thing, the park is going to be underused and secondly it would be much more ideal if buildings lined up along Pacific Boulevard to provide some pedestrian activity along the street. Add in having developments between the viaduct spaces, some aesthetic improvements to the viaducts themselves, and you have the solution. It's park overkill. |
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A viaduct example would be the postponed GM Towers wedged between the viaducts: http://www.journalofcommerce.com/ima.../24656/100.jpg http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...estcollage.jpg http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...twskytrain.jpg http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...kylineview.jpg http://www.busby.ca/clients/gm/images/01.jpg http://www.busby.ca/clients/gm/images/02.jpg http://www.busby.ca/clients/gm/images/03.jpg http://www.busby.ca/clients/gm/images/04.jpg http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1565/p4110622pt3.jpg http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6558/p4110625zr1.jpg http://www.vancouver2010.com/images/...tors_Place.jpg http://www.1st-vancouver.com/images/PICT1974_lg.jpg http://www.1st-vancouver.com/images/PICT1962_lg.jpg New office tower to adjoin GM Place Businesses hope location will help lure the best employees with Canucks perks Bruce Constantineau, Vancouver Sun Published: Saturday, August 18, 2007 GM Place owners plan to build a 22-storey office tower that will connect to the arena's northwest corner, Vancouver Arena Limited Partnership announced Friday. A formal application has been submitted to the City of Vancouver for permission to build a 312,000-square-foot building designed by architect Peter Busby. Busby said the building will become a signature Vancouver office tower because of its design and plans to make it among the most energy-efficient commercial buildings in North America. Sustainable features will include using "energy synergies" between GM Place and the connecting office tower. Heating and cooling systems between the two buildings will work together so waste heat from one building will be used to heat the other. Part of GM Place's underground parking, which is used mostly at night, will be used for the new office tower. Vancouver Canucks chief executive officer Chris Zimmerman, who was uncertain about the project's cost and potential opening date, said the new building will enhance the fan experience by providing new amenities like restaurants and retail shops. He noted office tower tenants will be able to walk from their lobby straight onto the concourse level of GM Place for hockey games or concerts. "We always want to have more concourse space because it gives us the opportunity to create more food and beverage options," Zimmerman said in an interview. "It will allow for better flow throughout the arena." He expects the new tower will attract a lot of potential new tenants who will enjoy the unique opportunity to be directly linked with an NHL venue. "In a highly competitive job market, I think it gives the primary tenants some wonderful recruiting tools," Zimmerman said. "We'll be able to provide some unique benefits around utilization of the building, the ice surface and probably some inside access to certain team events. It will be a great way for companies to differentiate themselves." He said the current high demand for Vancouver office space makes it an ideal time to build the new tower. The downtown Vancouver office space vacancy rate is currently at an all-time low of 3.5 per cent, according to CB Richard Ellis Ltd. bconstantineau@png.canwest.com © The Vancouver Sun 2007 |
That sounds awesome - I hope it gets built soon. Especially the game night lighting effects.. fantastic idea.
The viaducts are a part of the city, there is no good reason to rip them down. There's enough space to put condos around False Creek as is without removing vital pieces of infrastructure. |
Did the city approve the application?
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Similarly motorcycles and scooters aren't such a ridiculous item far out of reach of the downtrodden proletariat. A new cheap motorcycle can be had for under $5K, and insured and fueled for LESS than the cost of monthly bus pass. Wasteful extravagance is bit of an overstatement. Now here's a wasteful extravagance... what kind of a toll would you charge people to go 3 blocks? $.50 ? Why spend a few million dollars on tolling infrastructure that you know will never actually break even financially? Could it be a lack of financial realism holding is your personal economic status back? The idea of the viaduct really hurting the vitality of that area just seems kind of odd to me. It's not like Concorde is hesitant to state that it's developing that area as well. It's right up there on the gentrification calendar. It's more of an eventuality that the viaduct is going to be encapsulated by new development as Concord continues to build up its land. I honestly like the idea of them having to change their cookie cutter to fit in the viaduct. It's going to make an interesting neigbourhood. |
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How about a compromise? Toll these drivers (who can obviously afford it) to make up for the tax revenue loss to the city (from not developing this prime real estate) and the loss in quality of life for city residents. It wouldn't have to cost any more than the toll on the Golden Ears Bridge - which, considering the dearth of transit options in Langley and Maple Ridge (and the fantastic transit in Vancouver and Burnaby), is actually a less intuitive tax on those drivers. Imagine, for instance, if those tolls went straight towards skytrain expansion in the aforementioned burbs. . . |
This idea is so bad it is practically criminal,
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The greatest challenge are too many interests that can't agree on anything at the same time all benefiting from doing nothing. Be it the squatters who object to the presence of the public or any of the noises that might be expected in the core of an enormous city. There are the condo developers who are quite happy to buy land for practically nothing, land that would likely appreciate in value significantly were there any coherent redevelopment strategy and there is the City of Toronto itself that employs some of the stupidest people to ever emerge from the womb without strangling themselves with their umbilical cord and then the elected officials like Vaughn and Miller who pander to the above groups ensuring the status-quo. |
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While I admit there are exceptions to every rule, I would suggest counting how many 5K and under cars you see going over the viaducts to employment centres in the CBD. My hunch is that the number of people riding motorcycles is much lower than even that. |
But the option is there, and I see a lot of bikes on the road during summer.
Repairs are cheap for the most part. Especially when you learn how to wrench for yourself, there's books, rental shops and the like. The beauty of a bike is you don't need much space. Now if you add ~$3 toll for those 3 blocks what youre going to see is an equilibrium of people who can't afford to be late, value their time much more than those who drive around or just simply don't give a crap. The end result is still likely going to be more carbon emissions and additional debt from installing the tolling infrastructure. You wouldn't save money on maintenance either if people have to drive farther to go around the toll. Now as an academic I'd say that making $10-13K or so in a summer isn't entirely unreasonable, $15-25 as you gain in value. Most coop jobs in my field started around $3K a month for second years. Provided you have some initial capital to spend its not like a used car or cheap motorcycle are out of your reach. |
What is funny is it would not be cheep to take down the ducts, create new roads and access points. I think that money would be better used in building the street car system ;) Honestly, this councilor must have his finger in the condo developer's pie. What we need is more proposals like the GM tower there (which I really hope gets built) instead of more tower in the park Yaletown vacation condos wannabe suburbs.
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I also agree on the need for office space, especially in that particular area - Stadium station is rather underutilized by the 9-5 crowd. It would certainly be an improvement on the current moonscape next to GM and BC place. . . |
A bad idea to remove the viaducts - i'm in the camp that you will push traffic to other areas, especially thru cordova/powell - most heavy trucks and commuters would take those routes instead. Plus the escarpment issue - aside from dead-ending dunsmuir and georgia, it would be awkward to try to build a traffic ramp up from the level of gm place.
And we are seeing some suitable infill for the area - Even GM place without the office tower fits in nicely with the area, as with the costco. Not the most pedestrian-friendly environment, but suitable for the place. Put a toll on the viaduct? interesting idea, and easy place to toll. But how would the city toll just commuters, and not, say commercial vehicles/ couriers and other business traffic? There is already a perception that the city caters to residents before busineses. (eg. property taxes on residents vs. civic business taxes.) |
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So yes, people who have to drive in to work, no matter how much wealth they actually have accumulated, they still don't own the means of production, they don't own their job, they are still the working class. They show up every day to work for a living. And Last time I checked, this was a free country. People were allowed choice, and people are allowed the persuit of happiness. I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, I was happy gorwing up in a house, with a yard I could play in with friends, or play street hockey on my near deserted road. I imagine a lot of people out there want to give that happiness to their kids. How is that wrong? How can you punish hard working citizens who are driving the economic engine of downtown Vancouver with their hard work, but who can't even afford to live there. For the price of a 1 bedroom condo downtown, you can get a full 4 bedroom townhouse in Surrey. For a 2 bedroom Condo downtown, you can get a house with a yard in the burbs. Life is about choice, and if people choose to be happy by having kids and a yard and neighbours they know for their entire lives, why do you want to deny that to them? I can live in White Rock (rent at the moment) and drive a car. I can use my car to get to downtown in about an hour, and I can go anywhere else I want on a whim. If I were to take transit downtown, it would take at least an 1:45. If I lived in Langley, the difference between dirving and transit would be 2 to 1. When I lived in Coquitlam, I could drive downtown in 35 minutes, or take transit and be there in 45 minutes while having people sneeze in my face. But it's about choice. I chose most of the time to ride transit, but it had nothing to do with the environment. Even if I lived downtown, even in the same building I worked in, I would still want to own a car. A car to me is freedom, and for a year I was without that freedom once, and I missed it. I missed driving to parks I've never seen, or not having to struggle carrying 2 shopping bags on the bus. And if I had to budget it, there is no way I could afford a car AND live downtown. So I don't. I'm not against tolls when they pay for expensive infrastructure that would otherwise be beyond our means to construct. But using tolls or building/removing roads to engineer people's wills and eliminate free choice is beyond socialist, it's a form of fascism. |
News 1130 is hilarious, they are actually calling the viaducts a freeway! Now to me this shows just how disconnected that average Vancouverite is towards road infrastructure if they refer to 1km long (are they even 1km long?) bridges with a single off ramp and on ramp as a "freeway!"
If that is a freeway, then the free flow section of the new Golden Ears Bridge (from Lougheed to 200th) is a Mega Autobahn M1 speedway! |
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