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Migs Oct 22, 2015 6:50 AM

Justin Trudeau's Canada
 
Since we had to endure a Stephen Harper BS thread for years I'm inclined to return the favour. Trudeau hasn't even been sworn in yet & he is already doing exactly what he chastised Harper for doing so many times before, rule from the top down.

I spoke with a member of our military tonight & asked him if Canada has ever abandoned our allies in the middle of a military operation before. He's said this is the first time to his knowledge, & that's it's incredible saddening that Canada threw in the towel in the fight against a faction that conducts the worst atrocities imaginable.

http://m.torontosun.com/2015/10/21/t...esnt-bode-well

It'll be interesting to see if Trudeau mentions Cpl Nathan Cirillo later today.

geotag277 Oct 22, 2015 7:03 AM

Does anyone honestly think it was a good move to broach the subject of military action during the phone call with Obama less than 24 hours after being elected?

Wouldn't it have at least been more prudent to be fully briefed on the security mission and details as Prime Minister and consider the next course of action very carefully in the official leadership position?

This isn't a game.

Migs Oct 22, 2015 7:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geotag277 (Post 7207339)
Does anyone honestly think it was a good move to broach the subject of military action during the phone call with Obama less than 24 hours after being elected?

Wouldn't it have at least been more prudent to be fully briefed on the security mission and details as Prime Minister and consider the next course of action very carefully in the official leadership position?

This isn't a game.

It didn't take long for one of my biggest fears to be realized. Trudeau is reckless, immature, & irresponsible.

kool maudit Oct 22, 2015 7:26 AM

I liked the sudden and abrupt vote of no confidence in the US' Middle Eastern plans. The plans are crazed. My big concern with Trudeau is that he is a dynastic PM, and dynasties are a bad sign in democracies.

66days Oct 22, 2015 7:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migs (Post 7207333)
S
I spoke with a member of our military tonight & asked him if Canada has ever abandoned our allies in the middle of a military operation before.

and which allies are we abandoning?

Hali87 Oct 22, 2015 7:43 AM

Exactly. It's a war where most of the "good guys" are the ones fleeing the country.

vegeta_skyline Oct 22, 2015 8:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migs (Post 7207333)
it's incredible saddening that Canada threw in the towel

While I'm not against the mission per say as I oppose ISIS and all they stand for and would like nothing more than to see them crushed, let's be realistic here. The 'threat' of ISIS on a global and strategic level has been ridiculously over exaggerated.

Additionally, while I respect the skills and ability of our military, the small force we sent over would have a negligible impact on the outcome of the conflict. Really our token military involvement is more symbolic than anything else. Let the Russian, Syrians and other armed groups fight over that piece of dirt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migs (Post 7207333)
in the fight against a faction that conducts the worst atrocities imaginable.

You must live a very sheltered life, people commit brutal atrocities every day against one another in Western society and in this very country(505 homicides in 2013). The only difference is that they typically do it for their own individualistic reasons rather than a common cause and save for a few exceptions they don't generally go out of their way to publicize their actions. Imo whether you do it for a cause or for no reason at all, its just as barbaric all the same.

The Chemist Oct 22, 2015 8:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migs (Post 7207333)
Since we had to endure a Stephen Harper BS thread for years I'm inclined to return the favour. Trudeau hasn't even been sworn in yet & he is already doing exactly what he chastised Harper for doing so many times before, rule from the top down.

I spoke with a member of our military tonight & asked him if Canada has ever abandoned our allies in the middle of a military operation before. He's said this is the first time to his knowledge, & that's it's incredible saddening that Canada threw in the towel in the fight against a faction that conducts the worst atrocities imaginable.

http://m.torontosun.com/2015/10/21/t...esnt-bode-well

It'll be interesting to see if Trudeau mentions Cpl Nathan Cirillo later today.

You may not like it, but he's fulfilling an election promise. I hope it's the first of many that he fulfills.

lio45 Oct 22, 2015 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit (Post 7207351)
My big concern with Trudeau is that he is a dynastic PM, and dynasties are a bad sign in democracies.

That is probably my very biggest concern, especially when combined with the fact that his "dynasty" has been particularly awful. It seems to be cause for worry here -- based on what I've seen so far -- that we'll again have the same kind of centralizing, arrogant federal government we've seen in the past. (As pointed out in the other Politics thread: I haven't yet seen voting numbers broken down for Francophone Québécois, but I expect us to have voted some ~75% against Trudeau. Yet they got a majority.)

If that happens, the effects on the provincial political landscape might be interesting. Federal Liberals of the past did a lot to fuel the sovereignty movement; it never gets high during times of a "friendly" federal government. (i.e. not prone to centralization, open to devolutions, not seen as a threat generally.)

flipv Oct 22, 2015 11:11 AM

I support a strong federal government and dislike the extremely decentralized nature of the Canadian landscape.

PET had the right idea regarding provinces.

lio45 Oct 22, 2015 11:28 AM

There was essentially no Quebec sovereignty movement before PET came along... not to mention the reactions he triggered in the West.

If that's the right way to govern this federation then something's wrong with it.

kool maudit Oct 22, 2015 11:30 AM

Very few people don't oppose ISIS. They go against all norms, both older (slavery) and newer (gay people).

If you wanted to build a devil for modern Westerners, you couldn't do much better than these guys. It's not like there is the occasional editorial that is like "well, sure – they're a little too much sometimes... but we can learn a lot from these ISIS guys!"

They're totally anathema and it's on purpose, however exactly they came to be.

The question isn't "is ISIS bad or good", it's "what has been happening in the Middle East over the past 12 years, and why?"

flipv Oct 22, 2015 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 7207409)
There was essentially no Quebec sovereignty movement before PET came along... not to mention the reactions he triggered in the West.

If that's the right way to govern this federation then something's wrong with it.

I thought the quiet revolution started before... As did the FLQ.

Either way I wouldn't call PET the father of sovereignty moreso than a victim of timing and circumstance. It was going to happen regardless.

kool maudit Oct 22, 2015 11:41 AM

I have always viewed PET as a bit of a tragic figure. He tried to remake Canada in Montreal's image and ultimately got spat out both linguistic ends.

Since then, culturally at least, the biggest secret about separatism is that it already happened.

flipv Oct 22, 2015 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit (Post 7207421)
I have always viewed PET as a bit of a tragic figure. He tried to remake Canada in Montreal's image and ultimately got spat out both linguistic ends.

Since then, culturally at least, the biggest secret about separatism is that it already happened.

He is remembered very fondly in my circles. My mother told me that growing up in Yugoslavia in the 1970s all they knew about Canada was Trudeau. He was a larger than life statesman.

He had the right idea. Canada should've been bilingual coast to coast. Knowing more than one language makes us richer in the long run. I never understood people who take pride in only speaking English. Makes you kinda hick IMO.

SkahHigh Oct 22, 2015 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migs (Post 7207346)
It didn't take long for one of my biggest fears to be realized. Trudeau is reckless, immature, & irresponsible.

Of course, you can totally judge a prime minister's mandate 3 days after he was elected... :shrug:

J_Murphy Oct 22, 2015 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migs (Post 7207346)
It didn't take long for one of my biggest fears to be realized. Trudeau is reckless, immature, & irresponsible.

The fear is strong in this one.

Give the man a chance. He hasn't even been sworn in yet.

jigglysquishy Oct 22, 2015 12:20 PM

He's not even technically prime minister yet.

In any case, the Yanks caused the rise of ISIS, let them deal with it.

Acajack Oct 22, 2015 1:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit (Post 7207421)
I have always viewed PET as a bit of a tragic figure. He tried to remake Canada in Montreal's image and ultimately got spat out both linguistic ends..

Or did he try to remake Canada in his own personal image as the bicultural son of Charles-Émile Trudeau and Grace Elliot?

Acajack Oct 22, 2015 1:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipv (Post 7207414)
I thought the quiet revolution started before... As did the FLQ.

Either way I wouldn't call PET the father of sovereignty moreso than a victim of timing and circumstance. It was going to happen regardless.

I'm of two minds. Quebec separatism was only a burgeoning movement when Pierre Trudeau entered politics.

But it reached its peaks and nearly achieved its goal during his prime ministerial tenure and after his resignation when he was still heavily involved pulling lots of strings behind the scenes.

He may not be the unwitting father of the Quebec independence movement but he certainly added a lot of oil to the fire IMO.


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