Toronto as #2
 

i guess this is kind of one for the older forumers, but having just been to toronto, one of the things that i grew curious about was what the city felt like when montreal was still the first city of canada.

toronto is now so much busier, so much more ambitious than my hometown that it's difficult to see. i know the wheels were in motion since the '30s -- manufacturing, u.s. branch plants, the stock exchange -- but until the 1970s montreal was still canada's metropolis.

they were so close for so long that there is little direct evidence that remains. it's the little things: the humble houses on palmerston above queen, the slight lack of ornate, joined walkups... but toronto is now infilling so rapidly and building so grandly that its pre-eminent status seems like it was always the case.

though i prefer montreal -- any anglophone who works in the media here is here for this personal reason, as toronto offers more opportunity -- i do love toronto, and it has a lot of history in my family. i could easily live there, given the right job. i'm no blinded booster.

if anything, i could see how toronto may have once had a sparseness, a shabbiness that montreal did not (but we're still both plenty sparse and shabby, by world standards), but i doubt it ever lacked much in confidence.

i wonder, though, how montreal appeared to torontonians in those years -- was it something to aspire to, or a dead-end to avoid? was it a sibling?

the two are so alike and yet so different, and driving home on the 401 it is the tenements of saint henri that first drive this home, that first appear unshared.

what was it like in those days before the poles flipped?

I've actually wondered the same thing. Toronto's traditional built form can betray it's current size for sure. The boulevard portion of Palmerston is one of the best examples, but the predominance of single family homes in general (detached and subdivided or not) and evidence of conversion from said homes on major streets is telling.

I'd venture that the puritanical forces in pre-war Toronto did not think Montreal was something to look up to. They railed enough against the odd 4 story apartment so I can't imagine what they'd think of Montreal's excess. Of course Toronto has always been a city of immigrants so these were never really the majority.

From sources I own on both Toronto and Montreal it seems the former has almost always been a metropolis by accident. Whereas Montreal had clearer aspirations of greatness. This could be off though.

Montreal may have been number one, but Toronto always had for the most part, the biggest, first, and best there was in Canada.

Tallest buildings, first subway, largest hotels, etc. Except for brief periods, Montreal never held the title for such things, and when it did, Toronto overtook Montreal in no time, by going higher, or bigger, etc.

So it is weird, as Montreal had the power, but Toronto had the things you would think would be in Montreal at the time.

Montreal is still grand and still feels like the metropolis of Canada. Toronto just does not have the built form Montreal has, or the grandness in downtown architecture, like Montreal.
Montreal just feels bigger.

*COUGHS* Winnipeg was once 3rd largest in Canada.

montreal's greatest projects were always infrastructural - bridges and canals. that train tunnel through the mountain. that said, toronto -- from about 1930 on -- was making its ambition known. #2 trying harder. it's as if, in the states, new york had never existed, and chicago took over from philadelphia. montreal was always rich but very corrupt, very divided, gangstery. toronto was crisp and clean and hungry. it makes sense, what happened.

re: winnipeg, it's a shame it didn't grow bigger. it certainly has the bones. still, #3 in canada was sort of like #3 in belgium...

...re: niwell's point, i think montreal was more the accidental metropole, and toronto the deliberate one.

not anymore. even in 1996, there were more places where this was still true, but not now. toronto is bigger, busier in every sense of the word. the only remaining comparative advantage in montreal are the bourgeois residential streets -- st-hubert, hutchison -- other than that, toronto feels larger everywhere.

That intersection at portage and main is very impressive, i'll give Winnipeg that.
Montreal has a very european and international feel to it, give me crap for saying it, I think its true. Just like saying Vancouver has a very Asia Pacific feeling to it, and Toronto has a very midwestern American feel to it. If anything the reason that Toronto may geel bigger in more places would be because of a combination of things I also feel when Im in New York city...
first: pedestrian traffic
I mean whoa, lots of people running everywhere, even places such as our external suburbs, its getting crazy, the crush of people of city streets is the first sign you are in abig city, i felt it in new york, i felt it in Toronto, I felt it in Montreal.
second: Big city streets, streets that say you've arrived, in toronto these streets are Spadina, Bloor, Bay, University, and Jarvis. Montreal may have similar streets but names and such Ill note be familar with.
third: skyscrapers, skyscraper,skyscrapers, everywhere, of course skyscraperrs dont make the city as there are many significant cities in europe that dont have alot of skyscrapers, but most of the big ones do now, stand at king and bay and you feel small, stand in times sqaure and you feel small, stand on yonge and feel small, this is another way we mentally process a citys size by using the objects around us to make this dertimination.
montreal feels like torntos clone, just smaller...thats what i think when i go there...... the streets have similar feel, and the pedestrian traffic, but the lack of skyscrapers is building a big divide now.....

While I love Toronto's history, Yonge Street feels like such a tiny town main street :)
When you go shopping on St Catharine Street in Montreal, you feel like you are in a major metropolitan shopping and entertainment destination. You don't get that anywhere in Toronto, except for tiny spots along Bloor or near the Eaton Centre.
But Montreal just has this class to it, that Toronto still does not have.
I like Toronto, but it just feels like tiny villages all knit together, where Montreal feels like it was built as a big city :)

nothing on yonge street feels tiny. your perspective is being warped by the century old storefronts. our past of 100 years ago... just look up or down yonge street, anchored by massive skyscrapers at both ends in the core.. 2 bloor east/2 bloor west looking north and the financial district looking south.. then more skysrapers trailing up and down for miles without end...nothing smalltown about that.. yonge street always getting knocked but seems to be destination number for quebecers and westerners once they've arrived here....

Feel free to give us a lot more, as Winnipeg is indeed a hell of a lot more than just the intersection of Portage and Main.

That was said with respect to the theme of the thread assumed to be what makes a city feel big. If it was meant as compliment just might be the last one I ever make if based soley on your reaction.

Always? These things began in the 1930s or so and they were, with the exception of the subway (although even Rochester built one, kind of), mostly characteristic of American cities.

I know a few people who left Montreal for Toronto in the 1970s and 80s. They correctly viewed Toronto as a place of more business opportunity but saw it as quiet and culturally challenged - everything shut down early, there weren't many restaurants, etc. Toronto is much bigger than Montreal now but still feels nondescript. Canadian cities are all like this to varying degrees and there's very little correlation with size. Toronto hasn't lost this feel as it has grown.

Portage & Main would be a hell of a lot more appealing if the original office buildings that were demolished in the 60s-80s were still standing and restored. Now, the corner is too cold and uninviting.

I wish Montreal had a few 1000 foot towers, etc, but it has all the charm of a European city, rich with architectural wonderment...an amazing city.

My mom is from N.Y.C. and my mom and dad always talk about how dead Toronto was back when they were dating, compared to NYC :). My mom remembers coming up to visit my dad in Toronto and how everything was closed, and you could shoot a cannon down Yonge Street on a Sunday, as nothing was open. :)


Toronto started to become more alive in the late 60's and 70's.

I believe my dad said you had to wait till midnight on a Sunday night to go see a movie in Toronto, as everything had to be closed on Sunday :)

And of course, Italians were not allowed to walk in large groups on the street. My dad remembers the police seperating Italians, and telling them to walk on seperate sides of College Street. The police were worried the Italians were forming gangs by walking together.


As for Winnipeg, you can see that it was the third largest at one time. No offense to Edmonton and Calgary, but downtown Winnipeg has much more big city architecture from the early 1900's, and just seems bigger than both downtown Edmonton and Calgary. It has more substance to it than just a skyscraper business district.

My mom hated Toronto when my parents decided to move from NYC to Toronto in the early 70's. But after a while she said Toronto has grown on her, and she really likes the city now. They still can't believe how much it has changed for the good in the last 30 years. Except for the dirty streets :) My parents remember when Toronto was so clean you could eat food off the sidewalks, and all the services were top notch. Not anymore.

Speaking of skyscrapers, one wonders if early 20th century Toronto would of held so many titles were it not for Montreal's 10 storey policy. Also, I wonder if the TD Centre was in any way a response to Toronto looking up to Montreal? The last half of the 1960s may be the first where Toronto saw itself as being more than a collection of hamlets which also coincides with a major influx from the rest of Europe.

I know Montrealers who today consider Toronto as a culturally challenged place with more business opportunities. These opinions from the 70s and 80s certainly have grounds but I'm not convinced they were that on target either.

Nondescript? I see your own viewpoint continues to be as jaded.

Yes goodlookin, compared to Paris and Tokyo, Toronto is non-descript. Compared to anything......whatever.

This thread should be renamed what makes a city great, and in my mind I love those specialized districts within a city that have been frozen in time, something like old montreal, which is so wonderful, or yonge street which looks like it came out of the 1850's or early 1900's. And the entertainment district old wharhouses from the days of textile manufacture, then you got the distillary district, kensignton, which al layer with the excess and wealth of Yorkville and King West.. then the 30something energy of Yonge and Eglinton, the 60something energy of St.Clair West, the Rich Jewish Energy of Forest Hill Eglinton West, the Thai energy of our Chinatown-Spadina and so on and so on
Everything should layer, and you need a lot not just a few, everyday when you wake up the day should be an advanture always something new to see and do, there are places I have never been, just no time, things like campbell house, four seasons centre, .... maybe when something that interests me is going on...In my mind that is what makes a city great and exciting, viberant and full of life, not all cites have this, but it would be the first marker for greatnesss, or bigness, a clear evolution, with an uncharted path for the future all aspects just remaining fluid.

that's a silly opinion i think; i certainly don't share it. toronto is a very animated, very alive place culturally. what it lacks in mystique it more than makes up for in its simple wealth of talented young people.

I guess they could be wrong, although these were people who chose Toronto over Montreal. I've seen Toronto become much larger, busier, and more interesting first-hand since even the 90s, so it's not hard to imagine it as a very dull place in the 70s and earlier. I have no proof that Montreal was much better but at least more seemed to be happening there (Expo, then Olympics, various riots and speeches, October Crisis, etc.).

It is sort of shabby and as a city seems to borrow and inherit more than innovate directly (most places are like this of course, but few have Toronto's aspirations). For example, Toronto largely inherited its financial industry in a rather boring way; it was the default city given Canadian regulation. Even recently there's the ersatz Time Square and the Vancouver condo towers. Unsurprising in an era of globalization that's not about to stop anytime soon but that's the situation. I do think it's legitimate to complain about how most people see things in a distorted way or are just looking for bumper sticker descriptions but that doesn't fully account for the reputation.

I'll have to carefully decide on my next trip there whether I want to take in the 60-something energy or the "Rich Jewish Energy". Last time I just went drinking with U of T people, but clearly I was missing out. :)

Even Rome borrowed from Athens. And then there are those multitude of things witch are unique to each city which build into the identy