SkyscraperPage Forum - Toronto's new 25km Eglinton subway line breaks ground. To be completed by 2020.

Viewing Page 5 of 10

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)

- Transportation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=25)

- - Toronto's new 25km Eglinton subway line breaks ground. To be completed by 2020. (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195118)

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto (Post 5542934)

Toronto is using LRT, because we have to follow the North American wide fad and obsession with Light Rail Transit. Light rail has turned into this weird religion among transit geeks, that is is actually starting to get concerning and a tad creepy.

They should have just followed the original plan and constructed it as subway.

In pure Toronto fashion the Eglinton LRT will be so overcrowded when it opens, people will be going "oh we should have built a subway".

Same thing happened with the Scarborough Rapid Transit.

All I can say is thank goodness the Toronto planners from the 50's to 80's did not have the same attitude they do today concerning transit, or Toronto would have had no subways or what is arguably the worlds most integrated multi-model transit system.

What's creepy is your blatant obsession with subways, and going so far as to claiming there were plans for a subway on Eglinton east of the Allen! The only subway planned for Eglinton was from Eglinton West to Missisauga, and even that was a pipe dream. You should be ashamed to say there was an original plan for a subway on Eglinton to Kennedy.

It's really sad that you, and Ssiguy2 do not understand why we're stuck with an underground LRT, and why you cannot just switch to a subway just because it's underground. We need to go back to the original TC plan, and get over this idiotic obsession with wasting money on single subway lines.

There is no way in hell this will be built by 2020. It still has to undergo, let's say.....5 or 6 different permutations by Toronto standards. I put it at more like 2030 and might bare some resemblance to what is now planned.

The answer to the question is simple. If LRT will address the passenger demand for the forseeable future, why would you consider a subway? It seems to me that most of the route is served by buses today. It is a big step up to go from a bus line to full subway service. Building LRT underground in the central parts of the city is going to be a big step forward in itself. We also have to understand that as you move to a full subway, costs will escalate exponentially. A subway to suburban Mississauga is not going to happen, while extending LRT further west will be more reasonably priced if we get over this obsession that everything has to be 100% grade separated. Look at the success of Calgary's C-Train. Compromises were made to make it more affordable to build on the surface yet it moves a tremendous number of people and mostly does not interact with regular traffic.

Calgary's CTrain or Edmonton LRT or Dallas DART are completely different beasts from TC.
When they say they are TransitCity for their LRT lines they mean it. They pass some grades but they do so with rail crossings.........the cars always wait and trains never do except in Calgary and Dallas where they do downtown.
They may be both LRT technology but their executions, speed, grade separation, stations, stop spacing are rapid transit based whereas TC is, except Eglinton, just streetcar ROW. Comparing TC with those other rapid/mass transit systems is like comparing a standard street bus to Ottawa's Transitway.

A new Toronto transit proposal delivers more bang for the $8.2 billion buck

Jan 24 2012

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/...lion-buck?bn=1

Quote:

Commuters on Finch Ave. could have a new busway in less than three years and shovels could be in the ground on the Eglinton LRT and Sheppard subway by 2014. A new transit proposal from TTC chair Karen Stintz that would kick-start construction on three new transit lines using already-committed provincial dollars was gaining support Tuesday among councillors, particularly those in the increasingly powerful political middle.

- Instead of allocating $8.2 billion in provincial funds to tunnel the entire length of the Eglinton light rail line, the transit would run above-ground east of Laird Dr., freeing up between $1.5 billion and $2 billion for other projects. The savings could then be applied to bus rapid transit on Finch, where it would improve service to the city’s underserved northwest until funding could be found to install light rail there. It could also jump-start Mayor Rob Ford’s plan for a Sheppard subway extension by paying for a new stop at Victoria Park. That would cost about $1 billion, including station construction, according to one TTC source.

- Ford could then use whatever private funding he raises to push the subway east to the Scarborough Civic Centre and west to Downsview station, as originally hoped. Stintz believes she has a majority of councillors on-side if the proposal goes to a vote in February or March. If the province were agreeable, work on all three lines could begin immediately, she said. Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig said Monday that the province is awaiting a clear statement from the mayor or council on which projects the city wants to pursue. Stintz’s plan resembles a slimmed-down version of the old Transit City plan, but no one’s using that name for fear of antagonizing the mayor.

.....

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/ima...2a61761001.jpg

They're really just making it up as they go along now. Toronto's transit planning foibles would be hilarious if the consequences weren't so significant for the city.

Mayor Ford has come to his senses!!!

Eglinton Line will run above ground in Scarborough!!!

2 billion is cash to finish off Sheppard Subway and build finch Bus rapid Transit!!!

Yay!!

Wrong.

Ford opposes the plan and is sticking with his privately funded subway plan.

And to be clear, this plan is still pretty terrible, and not that well thought out.

city council is backing the new plan...

For just needs a way to save face, and he will also back the plan.

Mark my words.

Rob Ford still wants to build a subway

January 26th, 2012

By Robyn Doolittle

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/...-a-subway?bn=1

Quote:

As the majority of councillors line-up behind a transit compromise along Eglinton Ave., Mayor Rob Ford said he still wants to build subways. “Scarborough residents voted me in to build subways and I’m building subways,” he told the National Post Thursday night. “I’ll do exactly what the provincial government wants to do. Last time I checked they’re going to build subways. It’s started, it’s going, and I do what the taxpayers of Scarborough want … not above ground.”

His comments came despite the fact that many of the mayor’s own allies are pushing him to accept TTC chair Karen Stintz’s new proposal, which would see parts of a planned underground LRT along Eglinton Ave. moved street side. The change would free up as much as $2 billion, which could be used to extend the Sheppard subway line at least one stop and add some form of rapid transit along Finch Ave. W. “Both the mayor and I are working collaboratively and are committed to extending the Sheppard subway,” Stintz said Wednesday. Her proposal is a way to pay for that, she said. Gordon Chong, the man Ford tasked with finding private dollars to build the Sheppard line, is expected to soon conclude the money isn’t there.

.....

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/ima...19fd127c6f.jpg

The underground portion is pretty much set in stone at this part, barring a major political shift (which thankfully, isn't likely). The issue with simply converting to subway is we would have to go back to the drawing boards - new EAs, modified contracts and what have you. Simply wouldn't be worth the delay and money at this point. It's far past a conceptual line on a map now.

The East portion of Eglinton has to start from scratch to be underground at this point though. As in, it is simply a line on a map. Original EAs were for Transit City above ground. We can go back to this - which is what Stintz is proposing - or pretty much anything else at this point. I wouldn't even rule out an elevated "compromise", though it is probably unlikely.

To reiterate though: LRT is a given. Underground portion is a go. Rest is up in the air.

And best quote from above article "Said one member of Ford’s inner circle: “Basically, we all acknowledge the subway plan was a big mistake. It was unrealistic. And we’re just trying to get (Ford) out of this without having egg all over his face.”

Is a mostly or entirely grade-separated, above ground line feasible? (A hybrid between Transit City and the Ford plan)

grade separated won't happen. it will have its own ROW, with prioritized stoplight signaling for it. (that is if it isn't put underground, which at this point i doubt)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere (Post 5569877)

grade separated won't happen. it will have its own ROW, with prioritized stoplight signaling for it. (that is if it isn't put underground, which at this point i doubt)

How about reviving the old Belt Line as a rapid transit corridor?

If the TTC builds an on-street LRT to connect to the grade-separated Mississauga Transitway and all those Mississauga and GO buses, it would be a waste, especially considering the space in the Richview corridor. But building an entirely grade-separated LRT kind of goes against the whole concept of LRT also. From Miller to Ford, Toronto is making one mistake after another. They should have just built Eglinton West and Sheppard Subways from the beginning. But instead we a getting a dumb all-underground LRT that does not even connect to the Mississauga Transitway, thanks to David Miller and Rob Ford.

Mayor Rob Ford’s transit plan under fire

Feb 05 2012

By Tess Kalinowski

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/...lan-under-fire

Quote:

About 120 respected academics and civic leaders are urging Toronto city councillors to overturn Mayor Rob Ford’s transportation plans or risk crippling the city’s transit planning for the next century. Among those calling for an end to what they say is a “war on common sense,” are U of T Cities Centre Director Eric Miller; planning consultant and author Ken Greenberg; former Toronto chief planner Paul Bedford and former mayor David Crombie. Many of the players are the same city leaders who rallied last year against Councillor Doug Ford’s plan to put a Ferris wheel and shopping mall on the east waterfront.

- They now say the mayor’s determination to tunnel the east end of the Eglinton LRT is a waste of billions of dollars that will deprive tens of thousands of daily commuters in other areas of Toronto of rapid transit for years to come. “No private sector firm would be so wasteful in its use of company resources,” says the group’s letter, which also urges the city to restore plans for LRTs on Sheppard and Finch avenues. “Clearly we’re deeply concerned,” said Greenberg. The letter coincides with a plan by councillors to take the transit debate to a special meeting of council this week where Ford’s refusal to compromise on Eglinton could become the latest in a series of mayoral defeats.

- Sunday’s letter to council comes as a study from environmental think-tank Pembina Institute, also shows the previous Transit City light rail plan would be more effective in moving people and reducing pollution than either Ford’s underground plans for Eglinton and Sheppard or a compromise transit plan proposed earlier by TTC chair Karen Stintz. “Subways are not trophies but a tool to be used very judiciously,” warned Greenberg, who urged Torontonians to consider that leading cities around the world are building LRTs and bus rapid transit. “There’s no war on cars. What we are seeing is a war on common sense,” he said, citing a move by the mayor’s allies on the TTC board last week preventing the release of a report looking at the pros and cons of the mayor’s Eglinton plan.

- Those arguing for subways regardless of their potential ridership and cost, said Greenberg, are “people hanging on desperately to a mid-20th Century way of life where driving is the be all and end all.” What people want is good transit, with the reliability and frequencies of subways, said Miller. LRT can provide that on a separate right-of-way where it doesn’t compete with the traffic that hinders the downtown streetcars. “Burying the eastern portion of Eglinton is simply a waste of money,” he said. Putting the entire $8.4 billion that the province has committed to Toronto into Eglinton creates “one gold-plated line in one corner of the city,” said Miller. The alternative, a return to an earlier plan to run it underground only on the narrower, congested stretch of Eglinton, between about Black Creek and Laird, would save about $2 billion.

.....

Transit City is a go!!!

Yay!!!!

Great news. I haven't checked the TV since 6 o'clock. Transit City isn't optimal, but coverage of the city is much wider than under Fjord's subway scheme.

What a sad day for transit in Toronto.

FINCH WEST LRT
23.4 km
Projected to carry 68,000 riders a day.
Current ridership on buses 35,000 riders a day.
New ridership a day: 33,000

The Eglinton - Scarborough Crosstown LRT Subway
25 KM of fully grade separated transit
Projected to carry 279,000 riders a day. Over 205,000 to be new riders.

Projected ridership for the Eglinton - Scarborough Crosstown would likely be much higher than projections, given Toronto's success with rapid transit ridership.

SHEPPARD SUBWAY
6.5 km
Daily ridership: 45,000
Daily Ridership on bus services between Yonge and Don Mills, before the subway opened: 12,000
New ridership a day: 33,000

Sheppard LRT
14 km
Projected daily ridership: 47,000
Current ridership on bus service in the corridor: 30,000
New ridership a day: 17,000

I tell you, Transit City Light Rail is really going to attract the crowds to transit (sarcasm).

Viewing Page 5 of 10