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-   -   More transit improvements coming to Brampton. A model suburb for transit (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=190452)

miketoronto Apr 18, 2011 12:04 AM

More transit improvements coming to Brampton. A model suburb for transit
 
I went to a public meeting for the upcoming transit improvements in Brampton, a outer north west suburb of Toronto.

Brampton used to have one of the worst transit services in the Toronto area, and was famous for not having Sunday bus service.

Over the past few years Brampton Transit has turned itself around, and today the system offers the best service levels in the 905 outer suburban belt of Toronto. The improvements continue with a focus on offering an attractive service level across the suburbs.

Following are a preview of some improvements. All maps are from Brampton Transit.


Transit is being expanded to serve new subdivisions which are currently under construction. The new route 56 Credit Valley route will start by providing rush hour only service to this subdivision. As the construction finishes and more residents move in, additional service periods will be added. Currently there is lots of construction and most roads are not completed. Brampton has a early transit phase in policy, to try and get transit into new subdivisions as fast as possible, to encourage a transit habit.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5187/...eaae00f5_b.jpg

Starting this September, the ZUM Main Street line, will provide limited stop rapid bus service to the busiest transit corridor in the outer suburbs. Service will operate from Sandlewood Parkway to Mississauga Square One, a major shopping mall. This line is the second rapid bus route to open in Brampton. The first along Queen Street, opened last October, and almost 15,000 riders a day are using transit on the Queen Street corridor.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5182/...4c7331dd_b.jpg

Brampton Transit is improving rush hour service on a number of routes. With this round of improvements, most Brampton residents will have a bus within walking distance of their homes, which operates every 15 minutes or less during rush hour periods. Most bus routes are improving to a bus every 7.5 to 10 minutes depending on the route. With some continuing with the 15 minute service. The area with the area marked with the red circle will receive a bus every 4 minutes in rush hour, instead of every 7.5 minutes. This will make that stretch of Steeles Ave one of the most frequent bus routes in the outer suburbs. The area marked in black will have a bus every 10 minute instead of every 15 minutes. This area is the Meadowvale Business Park in Mississauga. This area is highlighted, because Brampton provides more frequent transit service to this major suburban office park, than Mississauga does, even though the business park is located in Mississauga.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5142/...1a4a161d_b.jpg

Another area where Brampton really shines is off peak service. More additions to off peak service, will mean that almost all of Brampton will have bus routes operating every 30 minutes or less seven days a week along major arterial routes. This plan was started last October, and with the addition of the routes above, really fills out the service. Brampton will become the only outer suburb of Toronto to offer a bus every 30 minutes or less to the majority of residents seven days a week. This is all part of Brampton's plan to make transit more attractive to residents.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5101/...c98dd090_b.jpg

Some pictures I took

The Queen Street corridor in Brampton.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5024/...ff1bf006_z.jpg

The ZUM Rapid Bus shelter at Queen and Kennedy.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5103/...bde501a6_z.jpg

The ZUM Shelter at Queen and Centre.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/...92200461_z.jpg

Nexis4Jersey Apr 18, 2011 12:34 AM

How is this a modal for Suburban Transit , looks like every other Major North American suburban...

glowrock Apr 18, 2011 4:30 AM

Because it's Canadian, specifically in the Toronto area, so Mike, of course, always uses them as the pinnacle of mass transit. That's why, and it's also why so many of us are so tired of his constant bus route discussions, along with his 24 hour service shenanigans... ;)

Aaron (Glowrock)

Doady Apr 18, 2011 4:52 AM

Funny how the model suburb for public transit has significantly lower revenue transit service hours per capita and much lower revenue ridership per capita annually than its suburban neighbour to the south, Mississauga.

Population, 2010
Mississauga: 730,000
Brampton: 490,000

Revenue Service Hours, 2010

Mississauga: 1,258,480
Brampton: 644,000

Revenue Ridership, 2010
Mississauga: 30.4 million
Brampton: 13.8 million

miketoronto Apr 18, 2011 1:22 PM

Brampton transit buses don't have to cover as large a territory as Mississauga Transit. So that explains the revenue hours.

And revenue hours really do not mean anything. It is the service levels that do, and Brampton has kicked MT's butt in that regard.

Come Sept all Brampton residents will have a bus every 30 minutes or less, while the majority of Mississauga residents will continue to put up with a bus every 60 minutes.

vid Apr 18, 2011 2:31 PM

Per capita, with Thunder Bay thrown in for fun:

Population, 2010
Mississauga: 730,000
Brampton: 490,000
Thunder Bay: 110,000

Revenue Service Hours, 2010
Mississauga: 1,258,480 / 730,000 = 1.72
Brampton: 644,000 / 490,000 = 1.31
Thunder Bay: 171,600 / 110,000 = 1.56*
*Source, see page 5. The chart only gives per capita revenue hours but that can be extrapolated to provide an estimate annual figure.

Brampton would have to add 120,400 revenue service hours to match Thunder Bay.

Revenue Ridership, 2010
Mississauga: 30,400,000 / 730,000 = 41.64
Brampton: 13,800,000 / 490,000 = 28.16
Thunder Bay: 3,600,000 / 110,000 = 32.73

Brampton would have to add 2,236,364 riders per year to match Thunder Bay.

For the record, Miketoronto thinks Thunder Bay's transit system offers poor service because service ends at 10:30pm on Sunday.

goodthings Apr 18, 2011 5:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto (Post 5245099)
This area is highlighted, because Brampton provides more frequent transit service to this major suburban office park, than Mississauga does, even though the business park is located in Mississauga.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5142/...1a4a161d_b.jpg

Do you know geography? The 407 is (roughly) the boundary between Brampton and Mississauga. So, that business park that the majority of the loop services is actually in Brampton. Only a tiny bit is in Mississauga.

A better example would be the two areas in the Courtneypark area, not this.
- Meyerside area: Mississauga's 5B Dixie runs every 18 minutes and 51A Tomken runs every 24 minutes. BT services this area every 7.5 minutes with 18/18A.
- Kennedy area north of Courtneypark: Also, BT's 7+ Kennedy will serve the area every 7.5 minutes, while MT's 53 Kennedy only runs every 20 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto (Post 5245507)
Come Sept all Brampton residents will have a bus every 30 minutes or less, while the majority of Mississauga residents will continue to put up with a bus every 60 minutes.

:haha::jester: All? Please explain 31 McVean. Is it 30 or less during midday hours?

Majority of Mississauga residents have buses that run every hour? :jester::haha: 4 routes don't constitute a majority.

Frequency comparisons

The longest wait for Mississauga is:
- 40 minutes during rush hour (65 Barondale)
- 47 minutes during midday and evenings (4 Sherway)
- 60 minutes during Saturday (8 Cawthra, 14 Lorne Park, 51 Tomken, 38 Creditview)
- 60 minutes during Sunday (38A Creditview, 31 Folkway)

The longest wait for Brampton is:
- 30 minutes during rush hour (31 McVean, and probably more)
- 60 minutes during midday and evenings (31 McVean, and probably more)
- 60 minutes during Saturday (13 Avondale, and probably more)
- 60 minutes during Sunday (101 Airport Express, and probably more)

And:
- 4+ Chinguacousy: 10m | 61+ Mavis: 18m
- 7+ Kennedy: 7.5m | 53 Kennedy: 20m
- 18+ Dixie: 7.5m | 5+ Dixie: 9m
- 30 Airport: 10m | 7/18 Airport/Explorer: 11m

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto (Post 5245507)
And revenue hours really do not mean anything.

22h46m service span along Burnhamthorpe (which is every 17 minutes overnight) and 23h26m service span along Dundas (which is every 15-20 minutes overnight) are really really helpful for those who are drunk. :cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto (Post 5245507)
It is the service levels that do, and Brampton has kicked MT's butt in that regard.

Service frequencies really really matter for Brampton especially if there are no overlapping routes that go to the other destination. So definitely, judging by the timetable, Brampton kicked Mississauga out of the water here.

However, on the opposite side of the spectrum, Mississauga has a lot of overlapping routes (a mix of node-to-node and grid-based systems), which are helpful if one wants to go to the subway, one wants to go to the industrial area, and one wants to go to Square One. MT probably gave to the complaints of customers about taking 3 buses just to go 2 blocks.

Route overlaps

- 10 Bristol, 39 Britannia, 89 Meadovale-Subway, and 27 Matheson for the Britannia corridor
- 42 Derry, 61 Mavis, and 15 Drew for the Derry corridor
- 7 Airport, 35+ Eglinton, 34 Credit Valley, and 89 Meadovale-Subway for the Eglinton corridor
- 13 Glen Erin, 29+ Park Royal, 110 University for the Erin Mills corridor
- and a lot lot more...

Also, Most probably these routes won't be full from one end to the other. For example, 51 Tomken doesn't serve ANY terminal, but is fully jam-packed from Dundas to north of Eastgate, then goes 1/4 full from there.

If Mississauga followed Brampton's model, then:
- 17 Timberlea would be cancelled and replace it with 51B (like 67 for 19B) (but maybe most of 17's passengers are from the subway, and not from Tomken)
- 25 Traders would be replaced by 53A or 19A extension (don't know why this is the case)

Meanwhile, if Brampton followed Mississauga's model, then:
- there would be a direct bus from Bramalea to Westwood
- 8 Centre would have a much better service

So, MT is actually an efficient transit system, and judging by the route map, Mississauga blows Brampton out of the water.

I also stated about using 3 buses to go 2 blocks. If we take that to the very opposite end of the spectrum, you get very winding routes (see BT's 4+ Chinguacousy and 8 Centre and MT's 8 Cawthra and 29+ Park Royal) and travelling far distances just to have access to a terminal or a stop (see BT's 23+ Sandalwood via Trinity Common and 57 Courtneypark via the Infield Terminal).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady (Post 5245330)
Funny how the model suburb for public transit has significantly lower revenue transit service hours per capita and much lower revenue ridership per capita annually than its suburban neighbour to the south, Mississauga.

Mississauga is more developed compared to Brampton. Mississauga has a huge skyline, Brampton's is composed of several commie blocks. So you gotta put that factor in as well. So, if Brampton has been fully sprawled and has developed like Mississauga did, MT and BT will have equal per capita ridership and service hours.

Justin10000 Apr 18, 2011 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodthings (Post 5245814)
Do you know geography? The 407 is the boundary between Brampton and Mississauga. So, that business park that the majority of the loop services is actually in Brampton. Only a tiny bit is in Mississauga.

The 407 is not the political boundary for Brampton. The 407 loosely follows the boundary within Brampton. But it's not the boundary.

Brampton Transit is definitely not the model for a suburban transit system. The system is much better than it was pre-2005, but I think the system is still playing catch-up.

vid Apr 18, 2011 8:09 PM

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/1...ammissline.jpg

Brampton's southern boundary.

Doady Apr 18, 2011 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodthings (Post 5245814)
A better example would be the two areas in the Courtneypark area, not this.
- Meyerside area: Mississauga's 5B Dixie runs every 18 minutes and 51A Tomken runs every 24 minutes. BT services this area every 7.5 minutes with 18/18A.
- Kennedy area north of Courtneypark: Also, BT's 7+ Kennedy will serve the area every 7.5 minutes, while MT's 53 Kennedy only runs every 20 minutes.

Even those aren't that great examples considering that MT's 5B is merely a branch of a larger route and it uses articulated buses, while MT's 53 is just a feeder route (and BT's 7 is an arterial route).

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodthings (Post 5245814)
Frequency comparisons

The longest wait for Mississauga is:
- 40 minutes during rush hour (65 Barondale)
- 47 minutes during midday and evenings (4 Sherway)
- 60 minutes during Saturday (8 Cawthra, 14 Lorne Park, 51 Tomken, 38 Creditview)
- 60 minutes during Sunday (38A Creditview, 31 Folkway)

38 Creditview isn't even 60 minutes anymore. It was increased to 45 minutes a few years ago.

You did omit the 45 though, but even that overlaps heavily with and is in very close proximity to many other routes... not a big deal

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodthings (Post 5245814)
However, on the opposite side of the spectrum, Mississauga has a lot of overlapping routes (a mix of node-to-node and grid-based systems), which are helpful if one wants to go to the subway, one wants to go to the industrial area, and one wants to go to Square One. MT probably gave to the complaints of customers about taking 3 buses just to go 2 blocks.

Ya, not only does MT have a lot of overlapping routes, but even the non-overlapping routes tend to be much closer together... just compare the amount east-west routes between Eastgate and Dundas with amount of east-west routes between Queen and Steeles (the same distance).

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodthings (Post 5245814)
22h46m service span along Burnhamthorpe (which is every 17 minutes overnight) and 23h26m service span along Dundas (which is every 15-20 minutes overnight) are really really helpful for those who are drunk. :cheers:

Revenue service hours is not just affected by service span, though it is certainly a part of it. Service hours are a measure of the total amount of service, and that also includes the number of routes and the frequency of service.

For example, if a route is 60 minutes long and has a service span of 22 hours daily, if it operates at 30 minutes frequency all day, then the amount of service hours is 88 hours daily, because there are 4 buses on the route. Add one more bus to the same route to increase its frequency to 24 minutes and the amount of service hours per day is increased to 110 hours.

So Mississauga Transit's higher revenue service hours per capita is a combination of a larger amount of routes (more overlapping routes, routes closer together), wider service span, and superior frequencies. So service hours is a completely objective measure of the amount of service a transit system provides. So for anyone to claim that Brampton "has kicked MT's butt" in terms of the level of service is just laughable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodthings (Post 5245814)
Mississauga is more developed compared to Brampton. Mississauga has a huge skyline, Brampton's is composed of several commie blocks. So you gotta put that factor in as well. So, if Brampton has been fully sprawled and has developed like Mississauga did, MT and BT will have equal per capita ridership and service hours.

Don't get me wrong, I think Brampton has been doing a good job transit-wise (much better than York Region, that's for sure). That's why I hate for there to be for threads like this: it sort of diminishes what Brampton has done, and frankly it is kind of embarrassing... I feel embarrassed for even posting in this thread.

J. Will Apr 19, 2011 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey (Post 5245120)
How is this a modal for Suburban Transit , looks like every other Major North American suburban...

Not at all. Check the website, and compare service frequency and hours of service to "every other major North American suburb". I'm pretty sure not every suburb is still running local bus routes at 2am and later. Hell, there are CITIES where the buses stop before then. The service frequency of some of the routes beats the most frequent service of some "city" agencies.

Doady Apr 19, 2011 1:18 AM

Yeah looks can be deceiving. Steeles East of Shopper's World has buses coming every 5 minutes or something like that. Queen (pictured above) has regular and express buses each coming around every 10 minutes. Probably not exactly what I would call typical bus service in major North American suburbs. But maybe it's really true that places like Arlington, TX or Mesa, AZ do have transit routes with 5 minute frequencies - I don't know, never been to those places. Let's not prejudge such places as having worse transit than Brampton, just because they are located in the US.

In any case, in 2016, I think that's when Mississauga and Brampton will have their LRT built (projected to be one of the busiest LRT systems in North America), then maybe Brampton and Mississauga can be the "model" suburbs, at least transit-wise.

miketoronto Apr 19, 2011 3:25 AM

Here is a map of bus routes operating seven days a week with a frequency of every 30 minutes or better until at least 11 pm. This is just to show Mississauga against Brampton.

The red routes are Mississauga Transit. Blue routes are Brampton Transit routes which currently meet the standard. And the green routes are routes which will meet the standard come September. Dark green routes are York Region Transit routes which operate every 30 minutes or less seven days a week until at least 11 pm.

One thing of interest, is that most Mississauga transit routes stop running pretty early on Sunday, in the 7-8 pm range. I was shocked at how little service there is.
Anyway to see the map, click on the link.
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...,0.358086&z=12

It should be noted that the green routes, while they don't meet the standard right now, only don't meet it due to the late evening service, which is on a 40 minute frequency. However the route still run later than routes in Mississauga. In Mississauga the routes not only did not meet frequency standards, but also did not run late.

goodthings Apr 19, 2011 3:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto (Post 5246645)
Here is a map of bus routes operating seven days a week with a frequency of every 30 minutes or better until at least 11 pm.

Last time I checked, Burnhamthorpe runs every 33 minutes during Sundays. So it fails to meet your criterion. Regardless, its frequency will improve come September and a lot of routes (both BT and MT) will have their service hours extended, which is good news. :tup:

I wonder how many passengers there are in Sunday trips after 11 pm in these routes (both BT and MT). Hmmm... :rolleyes:

Just wondering.

miketoronto Apr 19, 2011 3:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodthings (Post 5246683)
Last time I checked, Burnhamthorpe runs every 33 minutes during Sundays. So it fails to meet your criterion. Regardless, its frequency will improve come September and a lot of routes (both BT and MT) will have their service hours extended, which is good news. :tup:

I wonder how many passengers there are in Sunday trips after 11 pm in these routes (both BT and MT). Hmmm... :rolleyes:

Just wondering.

I have to take Burnhamthorpe off. :)

As for riders. Brampton Transit is putting out more service than might be needed at this moment, to build an attractive service, to build ridership.

Justin10000 Apr 19, 2011 12:48 PM

In September, Mississuaga Transit is going to terminate the 19 at the 407 GO stop. This is going to go down as one the dumbest service charges MT has implemented.

Nexis4Jersey Apr 19, 2011 2:47 PM

That Sprawl looks worse then the Sprawl in the Northeastern Megapolis and thats a model to go by :rolleyes:

M II A II R II K Apr 19, 2011 2:55 PM

And this model for transit probably would be better suited for suburbs that have highrise apartment buildings with a sizeable percentage of lower and middle income residents.

miketoronto Apr 19, 2011 3:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin10000 (Post 5246967)
In September, Mississuaga Transit is going to terminate the 19 at the 407 GO stop. This is going to go down as one the dumbest service charges MT has implemented.

Mississauga hates doing anything that is considered regional or of a benefit to their neighbours.

Mississauga is the city that believes in regional transit for every other area of the GTA, except for Peel.
So it is of no surprise they would not continue to Shoppers World, eventhough their very own residents go there to. They want to keep Mississauga residents in Mississauga :)
That is actually the reason the Living Arts Centre was built. The mayor did not want Mississauga residents going into Toronto for entertainment. Luckly that backfired :)

Justin10000 Apr 19, 2011 6:40 PM

I think with this move to terminate the 19 at the 407 GO station Mississauga IS thinking about Regional transit. Better access to the few GO buses that use the stop.


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