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-   -   Canadian Office Space Market (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=192174)

yaletown_fella Dec 26, 2011 7:15 PM

There's a lot of hype about Markham's new "downtown" but I don't get the whole live/work thing either. In fact, right now it's mostly a mirage.

I don't see companies fleeing their cheap/cost effective 905 office parks to fill in premium office space in these insta-towns. This presents quite a problem considering most of these Bijou/Seine/[insert cheesy name] units are priced to the proffesional/white collar market.

So in reality, these developments (apart from Mississauga City Centre) will be relatively car dependant in the short term.

WhipperSnapper Dec 26, 2011 9:48 PM

Remington's massive "Downtown Markham" (as it's called) project's commercial space is largely contained in typical office park blocks with ample surface parking surrounding each building. The apartments and townhouses represent a more urban setting and their prices reflect it. M'thinks these mega-developments that attempt to instantly create an urban centre out of nothing will be hit the hardest when the insanity slows down.

taal Dec 27, 2011 3:37 PM

I wish I had some stats so we could compare to some American cities (comparable to Toronto); How much office space is in the direct suburbs of American cities ?

Also do American cities inner suburbs (e.g. the outer 416) suffer in the same way i.e. no development.

I don't have much of a problem with construction in the 905 if we also saw construction in the outer 416, but we don't ... please don't use the 100K (which is a joke) at hallmark as an example ... they were forced to include it, and it'll mainly be small businesses.

So again, if there was a lot of development in the outter 416 and inner 905 ... no problem ... but that's not the case ... that's where I'm guessing American cities are differing ?

WhipperSnapper Dec 27, 2011 4:00 PM

Why do you think American cities would differ? In my experience, they're in far worse condition as competition forces them to take greater risk leading to overbuilding. It doesn't matter if it's Toronto, Houston, or Timbuktu. Developers will seek out cheaper land which is usually package in distant greenfields than established suburbs.

I know exactly what you're thinking. Tax breaks for the city's former boroughs would be at best a band-aid solution. It may lead to some development but, in the end, a large sum of people live and want to work in the 905. Why would an employer not take advantage of lower costs, ample parking, and less distractions.

canarob Dec 27, 2011 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper (Post 5529295)
I know exactly what you're thinking. Tax breaks for the city's former boroughs would be at best a band-aid solution. It may lead to some development but, in the end, a large sum of people live and want to work in the 905. Why would an employer not take advantage of lower costs, ample parking, and less distractions.

This is a good point. People want to live in downtown Toronto or the 905 but for the most part don't want to live in the inner burbs.

The reason why residential developments like Downtown Markham are selling for a premium is that there is good access to downtown Toronto via GO and to 905 office parks by VIVA and car. Also, by 905 standards, there are many amenities nearby (Unionville, Markville, Pacific Mall, etc). Also, detached homes in the area are even more expensive, so it's not like the prices aren't warranted for the most part (aside from some of those townhomes that are selling for $800k, which would get you a decent house nearby).

In the long run, I think office developments in places like Downtown Markham will be successful because the cheaper greenfield locations, like the new Honda headquarters, north of Elgin Mills near the 404, are just so far out of the way to be practical for most people. Even if most people initially drive to work at Downtown Markham, at least there are transit options that can be improved over time.

caltrane74 Dec 28, 2011 3:03 AM

You stroke the inner burbs with a pretty wide brush. Places like North York Centre, Kingsway, Etobicoke Shores, SCC, Don Mills and Islington don't seem to have a problem selling condo units. And yes probably better transit connections to the core.

Still though, I applaud the civic leaders of the outter ring of cities for beginning the development track towards more sustainable city centres.

canarob Dec 28, 2011 3:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caltrane74 (Post 5529899)
You stroke the inner burbs with a pretty wide brush. Places like North York Centre, Kingsway, Etobicoke Shores, SCC, Don Mills and Islington don't seem to have a problem selling condo units. And yes probably better transit connections to the core.

Still though, I applaud the civic leaders of the outter ring of cities for beginning the development track towards more sustainable city centres.

Very true -- there are certainly bright spots in the inner burbs.

caltrane74 Jan 7, 2012 6:50 PM

Application: Partial Permit Status: Not Started

Location: 120 BREMNER BLVD
TORONTO ON

Ward 20: Trinity-Spadina

Application#: 10 255756 STR 00 PP Accepted Date: Dec 29, 2011

Project: Mixed Use/Res w Non Res Partial Permit - Structural Framing

Description: Part Permit - permit for construction of new mixed use building with Hotel and Retail uses. PLEASE NOTE THAT UNDERGROUND PARKING GARAGE WILL SERVICE HOTEL BUILDING AS WELL AS NEW OFFICE BUILDING TO BE APPLIED FOR AT A LATER DATE ON THE SAME SITE. - 47 Storey Hotel. 566 rooms - 3 levels of underground parking - 379 parking spaces - plus 26 small car parking spaces - all spaces to be divided between buildings. - SEE REFERENCE PACKAGE OF NEW OFFICE BUILDING.



_________________

Does not look good for the Bremner tower... might get capped at ground level according to this latest application for parking at the new Delta Hotel.

if even....

Spring2008 Jan 7, 2012 9:56 PM

Downtown Calgary Vacancy as of Q4 2011 sitting at 3.9%, class A sitting at 1.6% after taking a massive drop in 2011.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rep...011-2011-12-28

EAP 2 beginning construction this month. Brookfield has just officially announced termination of leases to existing tenants and demolition of the old herald block to prepare for construction of a new 220m office tower in the core. A lot of big name developers eager to get in on this upcoming growth cycle.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...118/story.html

caltrane74 Jan 8, 2012 11:03 AM

Just when all hope had been lost for Toronto ever getting a 250 meter office tower..

Comes this:

http://www.thestar.com/iphone/news/a...ts-lustre?bn=1

WhipperSnapper Jan 8, 2012 4:24 PM

^Well, that's somewhat of a letdown. Should of known better with Caltrane at the helm. Nothing written hasn't been known for a long time.

caltrane74 Jan 8, 2012 5:17 PM

I thought this tower was going off the books in favor of 156 Front, 100 Adelaide and Bay Adelaide Centre 2.

Glad to see there is still life in this project from a developer point of view.

WhipperSnapper Jan 8, 2012 7:25 PM

Seriously?!? To pack up and leave it to competition?!?

156 Front is barely a proposal from Cadillac Fairview which has 16 York ready to break ground.

yaletown_fella Jan 8, 2012 7:34 PM

That's a funny little article!

Hopefully we'll see some reasonably scaled mixed use development on the former terminal site and a possible underground connection to the hospital and the Atrium on Bay. That's assuming the craziness continues.

Andrewjm3D Jan 8, 2012 7:35 PM

That is good news. The Bus Terminal right now is in such a bad location, it needs to be closer to the hwy. As for the Bremner Tower going on hold that would suck if true. I was and still am hoping that that whole area will be 100% construction free within the next three to four years. It would be nice to have one street in the city that wasn't a construction site.

yaletown_fella Jan 8, 2012 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D (Post 5542076)
That is good news. The Bus Terminal right now is in such a bad location, it needs to be closerto the hwy. As for the Bremner Tower going on hold that would suck if true. I was and still am hoping that that wholes are will be 100% construction free within the next three to four years. It would be nice to have one street in the city that wasn't a construction site.

Agreed
About a month ago I was on a bus to Waterloo and it took 40 minutes just to get on to the Gardiner.
As for the Bremner Tower, I'm a huge fan of the original conceptual render (the one that looked like some contemporary aqua-colored John Hancock)

Habanero Jan 9, 2012 12:32 AM

I remember all the doom and gloom articles saying that Calgary's vacancy rate would be in the high teens around this time. Nice to see more action coming to Calgary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spring2008 (Post 5541396)
Downtown Calgary Vacancy as of Q4 2011 sitting at 3.9%, class A sitting at 1.6% after taking a massive drop in 2011.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rep...011-2011-12-28

EAP 2 beginning construction this month. Brookfield has just officially announced termination of leases to existing tenants and demolition of the old herald block to prepare for construction of a new 220m office tower in the core. A lot of big name developers eager to get in on this upcoming growth cycle.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...118/story.html


Andrewjm3D Jan 9, 2012 4:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella (Post 5542079)
Agreed
About a month ago I was on a bus to Waterloo and it took 40 minutes just to get on to the Gardiner.
As for the Bremner Tower, I'm a huge fan of the original conceptual render (the one that looked like some contemporary aqua-colored John Hancock)

That's not the Bremner Tower, the Bremner Tower is going up next to the 47 storey Delta Tower. You're thinking of 45 Bay which may house a new bus terminal bus station in it's podium.

PoscStudent Jan 9, 2012 5:07 AM

St. John's continues to have the lowest vacancy rate.

http://www.financialpost.com/markets...298/story.html

Jelly Roll Jan 9, 2012 5:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taal (Post 5529273)
I wish I had some stats so we could compare to some American cities (comparable to Toronto); How much office space is in the direct suburbs of American cities ?

Also do American cities inner suburbs (e.g. the outer 416) suffer in the same way i.e. no development.

I don't have much of a problem with construction in the 905 if we also saw construction in the outer 416, but we don't ... please don't use the 100K (which is a joke) at hallmark as an example ... they were forced to include it, and it'll mainly be small businesses.

So again, if there was a lot of development in the outter 416 and inner 905 ... no problem ... but that's not the case ... that's where I'm guessing American cities are differing ?

Here is a page that will give you the amount of office space for any major US city. http://www.cushwake.com/cwglobal/jsp...uestid=1893220


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