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Originally Posted by geotag277
There are multi-facets to the issue.
First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.
Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.
It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277
People are acting like the only options for men are to engage in constant vaguely ambiguous rape-y behaviours or be completely celibate. Some of us have found another way.
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Agree with these points completely.
It is worth pointing out that the media vetting in Canada may not exist to the same extent in the US, simply due to libel laws. But in cases like Patrick Brown it was vetted extensively over several months, as you said. It's also not a forgone conclusion that those who come forward are doing so for money, fame or what have you. I'm sure it does exist in some cases, but in general for every public comment lauding those coming forward there's one calling for their heads to roll.
From my personal experience with women close to me (friends and girlfriends) I'd say at least 2/3rds experienced some form of sexual harassment in the workplace from someone in a position of power. And I'm not just talking about slightly inappropriate comments. It's easy to say they should have just reported it but if you are in a small company within a close-knit industry that isn't always as easy as it seems. Say, media for instance. There isn't always a faceless HR department to go to and when you accuse a VP of inappropriate behaviour they don't automatically get fired, despite the narrative currently (I do have personal examples of this). The balance of power in the entertainment industry and politics is even more skewed.
I've also relayed some stories from a former roommate of mine who was a family lawyer and represented sexual assault victims. She ended up switching careers because it was so soul destroying. Hearing stories about what you can go through at a police dept to report an assault (rape kits don't sound fun) and then having it simply turn into a long, drawn out "he said, she said" thing in court. And having to advise clients it's not worth going through with things because of that. There are reasons that people did not come forward with things promptly.
As an aside I was going on dates and chatting with women at bars not that long ago. These are not things I've ever worried about.