DeMalling the GTA and Golden Horseshoe

[miketoronto]

What do you guys think of demalling Southern Ontario?

There is no doubt that suburban malls have caused much urban decay in cities like Hamilton, St Catharines, Niagara Falls, etc.

Cities like Hamilton spend millions trying to prop up downtown and commercial corridors. What if that money was spent to buy out the suburban malls and shut them down?

Just think of it.

For example

HAMILTON
Demalling the city. Eastgate Square, Centre Mall, The Meadowlands, and Limeridge Mall would all be shut down, and retail would not be allowed in the suburban format within the entire City limits(which is pretty large now).
If other cities followed suit, like St Catharines, Burlington, etc.
There would be a whole area where none of these malls could further ruin our cities??


In Toronto we could also do this.
Take out Scarborough Town Centre, Yorkdale, Sherway, Square One, Markville Mall, Pickering Town Centre etc.
We could spark new life into downtown Toronto and all the little suburban downtown districts.

Would be interesting to see what would happen if we really did this.

I know we could never do this, but just think.

[WhipperSnapper]

there is a reason malls were incorporated into masterplans and subsequently built where they are


most malls around the GTA are within areas of the highest concentrations of housing while their quaint historical downtowns elsewhere are relatively low - this ideallic plan of yours which would force people to commute even longer distances for milk makes little sense in reality

suburbs are suburbs - there is no quick fix to make them urban

[DC83]

The fact that retailers IN malls do way more business / make way more money than those Street Facing stores alone would prove that this is an impossibility. Which is unfortunate.

I like the idea, however, of turning current malls into shopping "villages" like they have started in the States, and more recently up here (ie.: new Centre Mall in Hamilton).

Scarlem Town Centre could REALLY use a Village setting makeover - but that will NEVER happen.

[LordMandeep]

Square one is going to have like 20 buildings around it. Yorkdale is a gateway to downtown... So really malls actually encourage development around them.

[SteelTown]

I wouldn't start demalling as you call it but I would start enforcing better bylaws to ban drive thru and stand alone boxes. Basically ban big boxes. Though I don't have a problem if these big boxes where together with parking at the back. All suburban malls should have a transit station and created into a village like atmosphere.

I'm hoping with the redevelopment of Centre Mall it'll create a blueprint for future malls, village type.

Every mall other than Jackson Square has caused housing sprawl. It started with Centre Mall creating post war sprawl which is now considered urban. Eastgate created sprawl throughout the 70's. Then the grand daddy of em all Limeridge Mall with high retail stores caused huge sprawl, central Hamilton Mountain is the most populated area of Hamilton. Now we got Meadowlands and that is sprawling close to a million "McMansion". Two more power centres are coming Heritage Green and Clappison’s Corners, I wonder what the outcome of those power centres will be, hmmmmmm.

[icescraper]

[QUOTE=SteelTown]I wouldn't start demalling as you call it but I would start enforcing better bylaws to ban drive thru and stand alone boxes. Basically ban big boxes. Though I don't have a problem if these big boxes where together with parking at the back. All suburban malls should have a transit station and created into a village like atmosphere.QUOTE]

- I couldn't agree more. Big boxes and drive throughs do not give anything to the public except bleached ease and convinience. Unfortunately we've become a society addicted to it. I still walk into Tim Hortons - ice

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by icescraper

I couldn't agree more. Big boxes and drive throughs do not give anything to the public except bleached ease and convinience.

huh?

yeah, we really need some American Gladiators obstacle courses between people and their breakfast.

[miketoronto]

I think the way we use to have it was nice.

If you look at the Golden Horseshow(GTA), all the old little towns(suburbs if you want to call them that) like Burlington, Markham, etc. All of them had their little downtown for local stuff. If you need service shopping or a night on the town, these little downtowns where connected to DOWNTOWN TORONTO by suburban rail.

It is totally sad to read history books and find out little tiny downtowns allover the GTA use to be connected to Toronto via rail, and today we don't even have that in half these places.

But everything worked together then. You had the little town downtowns, and downtown Toronto. And everything fed off each other. There was no blight, no dead city streets, etc. Each downtown had a role to play.

Malls and power centres have totally upset that balance.

The city my dad is from in Italy, still has it like that. The main city has the big downtown for big regional shopping. But each small town just outside the city like the one my dad comes from, has their own little downtown and market area. And its amazing how everything works together. Residents shop at their local town centre, and also commute into the main city for more famous shopping and special things like going to the fish market.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I'm hoping with the redevelopment of Centre Mall it'll create a blueprint for future malls, village type.

In case you hadn't noticed, traditional malls are no longer built. It's been over a decade since one has been built in Ontario.

[SteelTown]

Yea I’m aware of that fact.

But the redevelopment plans for Centre Mall, cost $100 million, calls for a “hybrid” of traditional and stand alone boxes. Traditional retail facing along the street (Barton St) with parking at the back with some stand alone boxes, the traditional retail mall section will help at least block the image of parking lots and stand alone boxes.

This to me is a lot better then the big boxes that popping all over suburbs, hopefully this idea will catch on in future shopping centre designs.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

In case you hadn't noticed, traditional malls are no longer built. It's been over a decade since one has been built in Ontario.

Not sure of your definition of a traditional mall, but would you not consider Vaughn Mills to fall under that category?

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Not sure of your definition of a traditional mall, but would you not consider Vaughn Mills to fall under that category?

Nope, it's an outlet mall. A very large outlet mall, but an outlet mall none the less. Hence, my use of the word traditional since I'm well aware of Vaughan Mills.

[MolsonExport]

In my view, malls are not as much of a problem as are 'Power Centres' (big boxes, each surrounded by acres of parking...where you have to drive your car 5 or 6 times to shop). And every power centre looks exactly the same as the next one.

[LordMandeep]

Vaughn mills is a mall...

[zerokarma]

I'd rather go to malls then go from big box store to the next big box store.

[DC83]

Know what kills me??
People who go to Big Box plazas (ie.: Meadowlands in Ancaster) and go from one store to the next (sometimes 1 or 2 "stores" (aka boxes) down in their CAR!!!

[FALLSVIEW]

Originally Posted by DC83

Know what kills me??
People who go to Big Box plazas (ie.: Meadowlands in Ancaster) and go from one store to the next (sometimes 1 or 2 "stores" (aka boxes) down in their CAR!!!

That's the problem! Don't just blame these developers who see an opportunity to make a boat load of money, where a farmer use to plant his crop. Blame these lazy ass people who hop in their overpriced, overfueled SUV's, and drive from one side of the parking lot to the other for a new duvet cover! I personally hate shopping in 95% of any larger downtown I come across, because it has become a haven for those looking to make a quick buck with a switchblade. This is exactly why Niagara Falls is trying to re-develop it's Downtown!

Developer Wants To Reverse the Flow In Tiny Niagara Falls
Plan Would Create Old-Style Downtown

By David Segal
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, November 20, 2006; Page A03

NIAGARA FALLS, Ontario — Walk 20 minutes due north of the wax museums and honeymoon motels at the tacky core of this perennial tourist stop and you will find the eight-block stretch that locals here call downtown. It looks like any other main street in a death spiral: dozens of empty storefronts, plenty of cheap rental apartments and a few hold-out businesses limping from month to month.

But if all goes as planned, these benighted blocks will soon be the scene of a nervy experiment in urban revival. The plan is to close most of the downtown, throw a tarp over the buildings and spend more than $200 million on renovations. A year or so later, the place would reopen, this time hopefully with marquee retailers and spiffy residences, in a setting that might look like a Norman Rockwell painting come to life.

[matt602]

That sounds kind of insane to be honest. I'd be willing to bet it'll just be an expansion of the tourist trap, a second Clifton Hill.

You can't revitalize a downtown by closing it and renovating everything. It's a delicate process that takes years.

[SteelTown]

Well here's some more lovely news....more power centres in Hamilton

Developer eyes QEW power centre
By Naomi Powell
The Hamilton Spectator
(Nov 29, 2006)

One of Canada's biggest power centre developers has snapped up more than 12 hectares of land in Hamilton.

The $23.8-million purchase by SmartCentres includes six hectares of brownfields the company has pledged to clean up.

SmartCentres has developed 170 power centres across Canada, most anchored by Wal-Mart stores. It also develops office and industrial space.

Although no final plans have been made to build a power centre on the site, SmartCentres' Flavio Volpe noted that "in a location like that, it's one of the things we are seriously considering."

[dougtheengineer]

Malls >> power centers. I can't stand those places, especially their parking lots. Malls are not the only reason downtowns are dead, so removing malls is not the answer.