Compass & Fare Gates Discussion | u/c

[raisethehammer]

i was recently in Boston. They have sliding gates that open, but the main prevention against people jumping over is the low ceiling hanging down over each gate.
they've made the area above a persons head very small and difficult to jump through without smashing your head on the steel piece coming down from the ceiling.
I think NYC had the same when I was there in the summer.

[mr.x]

NDP MLAs unveil strategy to make SkyTrain stations safer

Doug Ward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Monday, November 12, 2007

VANCOUVER - The provincial NDP supports the B.C. Liberal government's proposal to install turnstiles at every SkyTrain and Canada Line station - but the opposition party doesn't want to wait until a private partner is found to build and operate the system.

NDP MLA Adrian Dix told reporters today that Victoria should give TransLink a direct grant from the provincial surplus to quickly develop a system of transit fare gates.

"We shouldn't waste money on private-sector schemes. We have the resources now to make the system safer," said Dix.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon announced plans last week to install turnstiles in an attempt to cut fare evasion and improve public safety.

Falcon also said he hopes to find a private partner to run the fare gate system on a revenue-sharing basis.

Dix said he supports turnstiles because they will reduce crime at transit stations - not because he thinks they will pay for themselves.

"It's clear that the incremental revenue from turnstiles will not pay for the capital construction," Dix told reporters. "So this has to be a decision that improves transit security and safety at stations."

Falcon said last week that the cost of turnstiles would be recovered eventually by reducing fare evasion.

Dix said that turnstiles would increase security by making it more difficult for criminals to get into a SkyTrain station.

"I think SkyTrain suffers from being a bit of an uncontrolled atmosphere right now."

Dix spoke about turnstiles during a NDP press conference held to unveil the party's 10-step strategy to cut crime at transit stations.

The NDP's proposals include:

- Increasing the number of SkyTrain police by 50 per cent until there is one security person at every station while a line is in operation.

- Provide additional after-hours security at all stations.

- Implement a pilot walk-home program for at least five high-risk stations.

Dix was joined at the media event by Dave Toner, whose son Matthew was beaten to death at Surrey Central SkyTrain station in 2005.

Toner, co-founder of Families Against Crime and Trauma, said that TransLink promised in August that it would provide 24-hour policing at a number of SkyTrain stations.

"We've been pressing them to honor their commitments. You can't put a price on public safety," said Toner.

The press conference was held at the 29th Street Station in East Vancouver, said Dix, because a vicious attack on a woman took place near the station in April and another six attacks have taken place within a few blocks.

Dix said that security at stations is essential if transit is going to become a key component of the region's climate change strategy. If governments are urging people to use transit, said Dix, "we have an absolute obligation to ensure their safety."




© Vancouver Sun

[deasine]

The Hong Kong ones are VERY fast... but aren't as protected as the higher ones in Europe...

[Stingray2004]

VANCOUVER - The provincial NDP supports the B.C. Liberal government's proposal to install turnstiles at every SkyTrain and Canada Line station - but the opposition party doesn't want to wait until a private partner is found to build and operate the system.

NDP MLA Adrian Dix told reporters today that Victoria should give TransLink a direct grant from the provincial surplus to quickly develop a system of transit fare gates.

Dix said he supports turnstiles because they will reduce crime at transit stations - not because he thinks they will pay for themselves.

Funny thing though, the NDP issued a press release a few days ago on Friday that completely contradicted that position:
_________________________________________________________________

News Detail
November 09, 2007

NDP Questions B.C. Liberals' Plan to Privatize SkyTrain Turnstiles

VANCOUVER – The B.C. Liberal government’s announcement yesterday that they plan on installing privatized turnstiles on SkyTrain raises some serious questions, New Democrat Transportation Critic Maurine Karagianis said today.


“It certainly sounds like the Minister of Transportation thought up this plan at the last minute, which is no way to ensure the safety of commuters on our public transit system. It’s no surprise that he is once again imposing his will on TransLink,” said Karagianis, the MLA for Esquimalt-Metchosin.


“Just last week, TransLink officials were saying that they had no plans to install turnstiles. And now the Transportation Minister is saying that he wants to go ahead with it.”


Karagianis noted that Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon’s suggestion to privatize the turnstiles is a signal that he may be thinking of privatizing the entire SkyTrain system.


“British Columbians have every reason to be worried about yet another privatization scheme from the Minister of Transportation. Just look at what’s happening along Cambie Street,” said Karagianis.


Karagianis said that the government is long overdue in bringing in other public safety measures such as improved lighting and the hiring of more transit police, noting that New Democrats have been pushing for increased safety at SkyTrain stations.


“Commuters have the right to feel safe when they take our public transit system, and it is way past time that the B.C. Liberal government took decisive action,” said Karagianis.


The NDP continues to fight in the Legislature against the Campbell government’s Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority Amendment Act (Bill 43), which would replace the democratically elected TransLink board with a group of hand-picked individuals.

© 2007 BC NDP

[mr.x]

Funny thing though, the NDP issued a press release a few days ago on Friday that completely contradicted that position:

....which is why the NDP will never win the election, at least not with James around.

interestingly to also note that the NDP was reluctant to compensate businesses during M-Line construction [and the Liberals were actually for compensation].

[deasine]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

....which is why the NDP will never win the election, at least not with James around.

interestingly to also note that the NDP was reluctant to compensate businesses during M-Line construction [and the Liberals were actually for compensation].

well that's what opposition is all about isn't it? =P

I still don't see why James is leading NDP.

[vitc]

Just be glad she is - cause this way the libs are safe as long as she is in.

[mr.x]

interesting article:




TransLink must get its act together over SkyTrain turnstiles

The Province
Published: Monday, November 12, 2007

F orgive us for being skeptical about the latest initiative to install turnstiles on SkyTrain to crack down on fare cheats and improve rider safety.

Politicians have been talking about this for years.

Eight years ago, Jenny Kwan, the NDP minister responsible for SkyTrain, and nine transit officials went on an expensive junket to England to view London's transit system and the fare gates there.

But early the following year, TransLink board members were handed a report downplaying fare evasion and crime on the system.

Then, that summer, an opinion poll of Greater Vancouver residents showed 89 per cent believed gates on both the Expo and Millennium lines would, guess what, deter fare evasion and improve security.

But still nothing was done. And still the system relies on the "honesty" of riders to cough up the cash, when it is clear many aren't honest at all. Some are even violent.

Now, following a trip to Europe in September, Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon says he is impressed by the London and Dutch transit systems and has become convinced of the need to install turnstiles.

And TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie says a new "controlled access" system is expected to be installed next year. But he apparently does not know how much it will cost or where the money is coming from.

Falcon, meanwhile, says he will make sure TransLink gets the cash that's needed.

Let's hope he does.

Turnstiles for SkyTrain are way overdue. It's high time our transit bosses stopped posturing about them -- and started having them installed.


© The Vancouver Province 2007

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Bert

What if the power cuts out and the attendant gets knocked out? Not the ideal situation to have high gates...

I would imagine that they would be locked by electromagnets, so if the power went out, the gates would swing freely. If they used the Japanese style, they wouldn't need to worry as by default they are open, and only close if the sensor detects you trying to get through without paying, or with an invalid ticket... a sensor which relies on being fed with electricity.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

a friend of a friend was beaten up at joyce station last week

and a coworker was mugged at the same station a few months ago - had his week old cell phone stolen

Mind if I ask if they were AT the station or walking home from it? And what were the circumstances? late at night? alone? people around?

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by deasine

If we were to keep the current system of Proof-of-payment, we would not be able to change our fare-system or impelement smart-cards. One of the many flaws in our system include this:
If I were to purchase a two-zone fare in Zone 2, I can technically ride the SkyTrain on Zone 1 and 3. There is no way I can get caught.

I agree on the smart card thing... but if you buy a 2-zone pass in zone 2, why would use it in zone 1 and 3 with the same 90 minutes? Unless you started in New West, went to Surrey for a few minutes, and rode back to New West and onto Vancouver.

But why would anyone do that? You can't buy a 2-zone daypass, and with monthly-passes, you need to chose the zones you will use it in.

I see no reason to prevent that... given the actual physical constraints of actually abusing the system that way.

But that brings up one problem that I see in the system, is the 2-zone month pass. For example, say I live in Burnaby and I work Mon-Wed in Coquitlam, and Thurs-Fri in Vancouver. If I buy a 2 zone pass, I have to choose between the two... or buy a three zone-pass, even though no trip is ever three zones. Ideally, a two-zone smart-card month pass would track which zone you started in and ended in and restrict your zones to those two places (restriction could be for the day)... this would also allow flexibility where one month-pass is shared by a couple who has kids where they work at different times while the other looks after the kids.

I don't know the legal implications... or if they're "legally" transferable, but I'm sure many share their month-pass with their husband or wife now.

In addition to this, there is the problem of living near Joyce station, but working in Metrotown (two stops away) being 2-zones, which is annoying in the POP system.

[officedweller]

Are the monthly passes zone specific? I would assume that you don't need to lock yourself into 2 particular zones and that a 2 zone pass could be used for any combination of 2 zones (i.e. zone 1 + zone 2 or zone 2 + zone 3).
That would provide the rider with more flexibility.
It would be stupid if the rider has to pay an "add zone fare" on a 2 zone card when he is just travelling 2 zones (but not one specified on the pass).

[twoNeurons]

The 2-zone passes are zone-specific, yes.

You must choose zone 1/2 or zone 2/3. The fault lies in that you don't need to scan a month-pass... you just show n' go... so there's no way to tell how it's used. Otherwise, you could use a 2-zone month pass quite easily as as a 3-zone pass.

Some riders attempt to do this by not scratching the zone they want, until they're told they must choose.

However, if they went to a smart card system, POP or no POP, it could be fixed, assuming all the buses get outfitted with the swipe readers.

[officedweller]

Yeah, that seems stupid. You've paid for 2 zones, it should matter whihc two they are - but I so see the point about using a 2 zone card for 3 zone travel.

[SpongeG]

i thought there was a plan to get rid of the zone system and replace it with distance based fares?

such as if you only go 2 stations away like from scott road to new westminster it would be no more than going from new westminster to lougheed etc.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i thought there was a plan to get rid of the zone system and replace it with distance based fares?

such as if you only go 2 stations away like from scott road to new westminster it would be no more than going from new westminster to lougheed etc.

Exactly, travelling based on distance. I would have to say it's very hard to implement on our bus system though...

About the zone 1/2 thing... I had to do taht a couple of times because I needed to go back home from Metro (zone two to zone 1 [which I live right on the zone boundary], then go to meet up with a friend on a project in zone 3. =S

[SFUVancouver]

I wonder what switching to a distance-based fare system will do to the underlying economics of our transit system? The trolley buses and the heavy ridership in Vancouver proper already heavily subsidize the suburbs while those of us with passes use transit at will because we've already paid for the privledge of a flat rate. If distance-based pricing were introduced short local trips would be exceptionally cheap (I'm thinking of a short hop over the Granville Street Bridge from Broadway to Davie as an example) and ridership would explode if such a trip only cost 10 or 15 cents. On the other hand, if many of these short trips that theoretically require a full one-zone fare or the purchase of a pass were converted to pay-as-you-go then the revenue from them would plummet. I can't see a great deal more capacity being added for these circulation trips if they are only yielding pennies on the former dollar. I also wonder about those who are used to unlimited use due to their purchase of a pass, would they reduce their transit trips because they have to pay all the time?

With all of that said I do endorse a distance-based pricing model, with the caveat that there be a minimum charge and an option to purchase unlimited local access, within the Metro Core, for example, and then you pay as you go for the rest of your travels.

[djh]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

If distance-based pricing were introduced short local trips would be exceptionally cheap (I'm thinking of a short hop over the Granville Street Bridge from Broadway to Davie as an example) and ridership would explode if such a trip only cost 10 or 15 cents. On the other hand, if many of these short trips that theoretically require a full one-zone fare or the purchase of a pass were converted to pay-as-you-go then the revenue from them would plummet.

I imagine there would be a minimum "administration" fee added onto the minimum fare, so the system would not be abused and it would help pay for the technology infrastructure.

[mr.x]

Quite a bit of support....



TRANSIT SECURITY: 'WE COULD PASS IT VERY QUICKLY'
NDP pushes SkyTrain safety measures

CATHRYN ATKINSON
Special to The Globe and Mail
November 13, 2007

The NDP says the provincial government is missing the opportunity to put in place extra security measures on the SkyTrain system in the current legislative session, adding that the issue could be settled before the House breaks for Christmas in two weeks time.

Opposition MLAs Mike Farnworth and Adrian Dix presented a 10-point list of safety improvements at a news conference yesterday at the 29th Avenue SkyTrain Station in East Vancouver, the scene of several attacks earlier this year.

They want more SkyTrain police in order to put one officer at each station while the line is operating, additional after-hours security at all stations, and a pilot walk-home program for commuters at five high-risk stations. They also want turnstiles to be built at stations through a direct grant from the provincial government, rather than with the financial involvement of a private company - as outlined by Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon last week.

Mr. Farnworth, the NDP's public safety critic, said the government could bring in a bill immediately as an added expense on this year's budget.

"We could pass it very quickly. It would send a strong message to the public about increased security," he said.

Mr. Farnworth said this year's $4.1-billion budget surplus could fund the New Democrats' suggestions, including turnstiles.

"There is no reason why we can't use some of that money to improve the SkyTrain system. We'd be more than happy to pass any spending bill to do that," he said.

Mr. Dix, whose Vancouver-Kingsway constituency has more SkyTrain stations than any other in the Lower Mainland, said there had been seven assaults on women at these stations this year. He added that a NDP-sponsored petition with "several thousand" names had been sent to TransLink requesting immediate action on SkyTrain safety.

In an interview, Mr. Falcon said the NDP's ideas were "back-of-the-envelope recommendations."

"We have to remember the response that TransLink takes is based on thoughtful, researched [evidence]," he said. "But I'm glad they're talking about this even if they are coming late to the party."

Mr. Falcon said it is "unfortunate" that the NDP is holding back debate in the legislature on the TransLink Governance Bill, meant to eventually restructure the public transport agency.

"One of the major things we are trying to do in restructuring TransLink is to provide it with ... hundreds of millions of dollars over the next 10 to 15 years, that would allow them to do exactly those kind of suggestions, and they need financial tools to do that."

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by deasine

TransLink didn't reveal the true numbers... as we hae discussed before. Now the "30%" number from the Provincal Government and the media (CanWest) may seem a little too large, but it's true. If we were to keep the current system of Proof-of-payment, we would not be able to change our fare-system or impelement smart-cards. One of the many flaws in our system include this:
If I were to purchase a two-zone fare in Zone 2, I can technically ride the SkyTrain on Zone 1 and 3. There is no way I can get caught.
Bu
The Proof-of-Payment is VERY idealistic. As cornholio said, we can put more transit police and skytrain attendants... but unfortunately, that doesn't work. Many of them just stand around doing nothing - putting more is just a waste of tax dollars. Now if we put the gates, it would be stopping our fare evaders and forcing new attendants to do their job properly. Putting actual gates will also allow us to implement Smart cards. The gates solve the problem of fare evasion, safety and security within the system (though I would say putting Transit Police in and around the stations should be done as well) and potentially increase ridership, which is the goal of many urban planners and the Provincal government.

Regarding the early date of the gates, maybe some stations would see this for sure, such as the M-Line stations.

Translink didn't release the true numbers??? It doesn't help spreading false information. Translink did reveal the true numbers. However some politicians feel like they can ignore facts and spread bs information to score political points. I mean really there is no reason for Translink to use lower numbers, in fact it would be in their best interest to inflate the numbers to receive more funding. Anyways if you are skeptical about the numbers then why don't you go ask one of the transit cops or do a mini survey but believing Falcons "opinion" that is in no way based on "facts" or any "research is pointless.

In fact i think im going to gather some info and post it so I can show how not only pointless fare gates are but also how much better a pop sytem is. Regarding the use of smart cards the best thing would be to just install several scaners at station entraces where you can scan your card and a display screen will tell you if you can enter etc. Other than that station entrances should be free flow, there should be a strong presence of transit officials on the platforms and trains and it should not be possible to save money by frequently not paying your fare. If fare gates are installed then I can guarantee that there will be a reduced presence of skytrain officials on the trains and platforms reducing safety on the system and crime in the vicinity of the stations should increase rather then decrease. But hey lets still install them because our opinions are more important then that of the professionals.