CHICAGO | General Developments

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

which ones dont charge a fee? what is wrong with a cultural institution for children in a public park? should parks consist of only grass and trees?

I have no problems with buildings in parks. I have a problem with PRIVATE institutions being located there. How much clearer can I be?

Parks should not consist of forced activities charging admission fees like its Disneyworld...because eventually thats what we're going to be left with.

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

I have no problems with buildings in parks. I have a problem with PRIVATE institutions being located there. How much clearer can I be?

I do too, but I dont have a problem with a non-profit museum for kids, built mainly underground.

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Parks should not consist of forced activities charging admission fees like its Disneyworld...because eventually thats what we're going to be left with.

comparing a museum to Disneyland is quite the strech.

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

I do too, but I dont have a problem with a non-profit museum for kids, built mainly underground.

If you say so...



And why would you want a childrens museum underground in the first place? I dont understand why people are acting like this is the only available plot of land left on the planet to relocate a museum and totally unwilling to explore alternatives which make way more sense (and will meet zero opposition to boot)

[honte]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

i just cant get over there are people here actually supporting giving away our public realm. These are YOUR parks. OUR parks. WE own them. WE pay for them. and no one should be able to take that land away. and yet here we are, doing exactly that without batting an eyelash. future generations are not going to look back on this period favorably...we're selling our souls ladies and gentlemen.

*Applause*

[wrab]

Kamin weighs in on the proposed Chicago Children's Museum move to Grant Park:

Relocating Chicago Children’s Museum to Grant Park would wreak havoc
By Blair Kamin
April 17
As the Chicago Plan Commission gears up for a vote next month that almost surely will give the Chicago Children’s Museum a crucial endorsement in its controversial drive to relocate to Grant Park, this much is clear: The plan remains a bad marriage in the making — as bad for the museum as it would be for Grant Park.....
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune....e-chicago.html

[VivaLFuego]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

And why would you want a childrens museum underground in the first place?

Finally, a really good argument against this location. Seriously. Why should the Children's Museum be a cave? Would the new environment be that much better from a facility standpoint than the Navy Pier spot?

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

every museum charges a fee.

Then it actively discriminates against those who cannot afford it and is no longer public. An institution can be both private and not-for-profit.

[Segun]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

which ones dont charge a fee?

All the Smithsonian Museums are free in DC.

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G

Then it actively discriminates against those who cannot afford it and is no longer public. An institution can be both private and not-for-profit.

I understand that, but but I dont think museums like Field, Shed, MS&I "actively discirminates" against people because they charge a fee. Who knows what the fee will be, but I suspect every child in this city will be able to attend if they wanted to one way or another.

I am not all for the CCM being there, but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by Segun

All the Smithsonian Museums are free in DC.

I was talking about in Chicago. Should museums everywhere be free and government funded? thats another issue.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

I understand that, but but I dont think museums like Field, Shed, MS&I "actively discirminates" against people because they charge a fee. Who knows what the fee will be, but I suspect every child in this city will be able to attend if they wanted to one way or another.

I am not all for the CCM being there, but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

I don't mean "discriminate" in a pejorative way but literally: people in certain economic situations are essentially barred access. While this is okay for the institutions on Museum Campus it most certainly is not for those in Grant Park for which "forever open, clear and free" couldn't be any, well, clearer; how do you legally reconcile that mandate with the cordoning off of area in a park (in its two dimensional capacity) for those who are able or wanting to pay an entrance fee? Quite obviously, you can't -- not without tacking on some kind of proviso.

If that's what you are for, then just say so: "Grant Park should remain forever open, clear and free of any buildings except in this case and this case, etc." We can debate the merits of that argument at that point, but, as it stands now, and in the context of this discussion, the law is unambiguous.

[Nowhereman1280]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

North Michigan Ave has the highest concentration of upscale condos and hotels, so why aren't there tons of fast food places surrounding them to feed all of their poor workers? your reasoning makes no sense.

Again you seem to miss the difference between N. Michigan and the Loop. N. Michigan is nearly all residential, little to no office. Office and Hotel generates lots of low income jobs and people who do not have a lot of time on their hands and will probably only eat lunch during a 30-45 min break. This is not conducive to sit down restaurants. Also, Michigan Ave. is plastered with cheep dining, There are hundreds of resturants like McDonalds, Mister J's Dawg and Burger, Mike's Grill, Johnny's Grill, Jimmy Johns, (those are just the ones within a block of my front door) within a block of Michigan Ave.

Originally Posted by BWChicago

When you start getting up by Oak Street and LSD that's more of a historically upscale district, but not really 'forever', it was the South Side that was the earlier big money area, until Potter Palmer built his castle.

Either way the point is that it has been a mecca for Chicago's big money for at least 100 years.

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

I do too, but I dont have a problem with a non-profit museum for kids, built mainly underground.

If you really think that a 150x200 yard pit lined with glass is unobtrusive in a park setting then just go right on believing that. There are such better places to put that thing, this location just sucks.

[i_am_hydrogen]

Residents file suit over Latin School soccer field under construction in Lincoln Park
Restraining order sought to halt construction

By Robert Mitchum and Noreen Ahmed-Ullah | Tribune reporters
10:11 PM CDT, April 16, 2008

The fight over a soccer field under construction in Lincoln Park moved to the courts Wednesday, as a residents group filed a lawsuit hoping to put a stop to construction.

The $2 million field, which is being funded in part by the private Latin School in exchange for priority use of the property, has become a source of rancorous debate in the North Side neighborhood. Some residents said the project was approved without proper public hearings. They also are upset that a public meadow will be replaced with an artificial-turf field.

Protect Our Parks, a non-profit group of about 20 residents who oppose the project, filed the complaint Wednesday morning in Cook County Circuit Court. The group also will seek a temporary restraining order to put an immediate stop to the construction in a Friday morning hearing, said Thomas Ramsdell, the group's attorney.

"This soccer field is an insult to the park, an insult to the community, and we will not stand idly by and let it happen," said Greta Lear, a spokeswoman for the group, while standing outside the construction site Wednesday afternoon.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...tory?track=rss

[ethereal_reality]

Every major museum in Chicago has a free day.
Also, you can pay want you want at the Art Institute.
They have the signs and price of admission...
but in reality, it's pay what you can.
Not that many people know that.

Kamen calls Grant Park an "Edenic swath of green".
Well, what about all the streets that criss cross it?
He also acts like CM is simply going to set up folding tables
in the actual garage.. ."with whirring of exhaust fans and screeching of tires."

His propaganda is over the top and disgusting.

Keep in mind..we're talking about a CHILDREN'S museum.
Heaven forbid something like that would show up in a park. (!??)

[ethereal_reality]

......lay off cbotnyse.

now you can use me as a target.

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G

If that's what you are for, then just say so: "Grant Park should remain forever open, clear and free of any buildings except in this case and this case, etc." We can debate the merits of that argument at that point, but, as it stands now, and in the context of this discussion, the law is unambiguous.

right, I believe GP should remain forever open, clear and free of any buildings except in the case of cultural institutions that will enhance the city, and especially ones that at the very least try to respect the park. The opposition here is treating the CCM as if it were some exclusive 1000 foot condo tower. I just dont see it that way.

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Again you seem to miss the difference between N. Michigan and the Loop. N. Michigan is nearly all residential, little to no office. Office and Hotel generates lots of low income jobs and people who do not have a lot of time on their hands and will probably only eat lunch during a 30-45 min break. This is not conducive to sit down restaurants. Also, Michigan Ave. is plastered with cheep dining, There are hundreds of resturants like McDonalds, Mister J's Dawg and Burger, Mike's Grill, Johnny's Grill, Jimmy Johns, (those are just the ones within a block of my front door) within a block of Michigan Ave.

first of all, dont tell me I am missing the difference. I litterally live on the spot between NMA and the Loop. Michigan Ave is majority hotel and office, are you serious? I'm not talking about the surrounding area, I'm talking about Michigan Ave itself. From the Mich Ave bridge to Oak street there are zero fast food places on the street. The Loop has endless amounts of fast food places that low income workers at B37 can go to for a lunch break, this development does not need to add more.

This specific location should be built to attract people to the loop; people outside of the 9-5 office worker. fast food that closes at 6pm does not do that. Mid priced, sit down restaurants, with a bar, are what I want to see in there. sue me.

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality

His propaganda is over the top and disgusting.

You want to talk about propoganda? Lets remember which side is the one hiring PR firms...

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality

......lay off cbotnyse.

This is a forum. Ideas are exchanged here. Sometimes they are in conflict. Your instruction is unnecessary.

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

right, I believe GP should remain forever open, clear and free of any buildings except in the case of cultural institutions that will enhance the city, and especially ones that at the very least try to respect the park.

In that case, it is necessary for the courts or some legislatorial body representative of all tax-paying Chicago citizens to determine whether or not the 1836 mandate should be changed.

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

The opposition here is treating the CCM as if it were some exclusive 1000 foot condo tower. I just dont see it that way.

No need to descend into hyperbole; a fee denotes a measure (I'd say a significant measure) of exclusivity. You may not see it that way, but a low-earning household might.

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G

This is a forum. Ideas are exchanged here. Sometimes they are in conflict. Your instruction is unnecessary.

I'm sure he said that tounge-in-cheek. I dont mind the discussion at all. I understand my position is probably the minority one. Like I said, I'm not all for it, but the pros ever-so-slightly outweigh the cons.

In that case, it is necessary for the courts or some legislatorial body representative of all tax-paying Chicago citizens to determine whether or not the 1836 mandate should be changed.

That's fine with me. If this project somehow gets blocked, I'd be fine with that too.

No need to descend into hyperbole; a fee denotes a measure (I'd say a significant measure) of exclusivity. You may not see it that way, but a low-earning household might.

well we dont know that yet. I suspect there will be a free day and or some kind of school program that will allow kids to get in free on select days.

Its the same as all other activites in Grant Park. Some times they're free (Taste of Chicago) sometmes they're not (Lollapalooza).