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  #41  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 2:09 PM
highwater highwater is offline
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Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal View Post
Of course, completely and utterly absent from this agency partnership to cut traffic deaths and injuries is any kind of analysis of whether and how the structure of our road network contributes to an increased risk of death and injury.
I couldn't help noticing this as well. Instead, we have 'vulnerable road users' being identified as a 'problem area'. I hope they don't mean that the way it sounds.
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  #42  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 2:18 PM
sofasurfer sofasurfer is offline
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Again, the speed limit along many stretches of Main and King is 50km/h and yet I've never seen anyone pulled over for speeding on Main OR King downtown.
I've seen one car pulled over in the 7 months or so that I've been commuting along this route. Pathetic.

If you've got a speed limit, enforce it already. They seem to do it much more along between King and Queenston a fair bit (seen lots of people pulled over on Nash and Centennial, for example), and the bit of Centennial coming down the moutain is easy pickings for traffic cops.

So why not Main and King?
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  #43  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 2:27 PM
sofasurfer sofasurfer is offline
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Another idea:

What about Speed Indication Devices? (this link is to some pics, as I'm really not sure if you have these in Canada)


Just found a Transport for London report which actually discusses the effectiveness of the very campaign used in the part of London that we moved from last fall!

It's worth pasting the conclusions from the summary:

Quote:
Conclusions
Overall, the research found:
1) SIDs were effective in reducing speeds on 30mph roads in London.
2) SIDs were effective at reducing speeds 200 metres downstream of the sign.
3) SIDs were effective in the first two weeks of operation.
I suspect this might be worth trying out - particularly if backed up by some traffic cops enforcing the speed limits from time to time...
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  #44  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 2:44 PM
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ryan_mcgreal ryan_mcgreal is offline
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Originally Posted by sofasurfer View Post
If you've got a speed limit, enforce it already.
The problem is that speed limit enforcement doesn't work. Short of dedicating permanent speed traps on every major street at prohibitive cost, you just can't drive a permanent change in driver behaviour through browbeating or moral suasion.

The solution is to structure the streets themselves so that it is both physically and psychologically difficult to speed:

* Two-way traffic flow
* Wider sidewalks
* Narrower lanes
* Curbside parking
* Street trees
* Non-synchronized lights

That, in turn, will help to bring more pedestrians out onto the street, which will further slow traffic in a positive feedback loop of increasing safety and vitality.
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  #45  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sofasurfer View Post
Another idea:

What about Speed Indication Devices? (this link is to some pics, as I'm really not sure if you have these in Canada)
The only place I've seen these in Canada is along a tiny hamlet of a town that is now filled with multimillion-dollar mansions. The name escapes me but it's somewhere between Stouffville and Markham. It might be Lemonville. We used to drive through it to Toronto when we lived in Uxbridge.

Guess they didn't want their property values reduced/all their power walks disturbed
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  #46  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 8:24 PM
sofasurfer sofasurfer is offline
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Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal View Post
The problem is that speed limit enforcement doesn't work. Short of dedicating permanent speed traps on every major street at prohibitive cost, you just can't drive a permanent change in driver behaviour through browbeating or moral suasion.
Mm. You've just reminded me one of the things I don't miss about the UK (London in particular) - insane amount of CCTV surveillance. Not just speed cameras...

I *will* contend, though, that Speed Indication Devices - particularly as deployed in Kingston-Upon-Thames (see the link in my previous post to the TfL report) - DO make a difference. I should know. I lived there for >3 years before I moved here

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal View Post
The solution is to structure the streets themselves so that it is both physically and psychologically difficult to speed:
(&c).
Agree with you on all that (I've just recently moved from somewhere that we take all this for granted!)

My only caveat is that given the inability of most drivers over here to even maintain lane discipline in the huge wide buggers you have here already, I'm *really* not sure if narrower lanes are such a good idea for overall driver safety
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  #47  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 9:12 PM
highwater highwater is offline
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Originally Posted by sofasurfer View Post
My only caveat is that given the inability of most drivers over here to even maintain lane discipline in the huge wide buggers you have here already, I'm *really* not sure if narrower lanes are such a good idea for overall driver safety
Have you had a chance to do much driving in downtown Toronto since you moved here? I learned to drive in Toronto before moving to St. Catharines. After Toronto, St. Kitts scared the crap out of me because of the speed and rapid lane changing of the drivers there. Ditto Hamilton. It's the car culture and street design in car-centric cities that promotes the kind of behaviour you're talking about, not anything integral to Canadian drivers.
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  #48  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 9:19 PM
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SteelTown SteelTown is online now
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We do have speed indication signs in Hamilton.........

Quote:
University and city partner on safety initiative

April 16, 2009
http://dailynews.mcmaster.ca/story.cfm?id=6098

A new radar sign overtop Cootes Drive on the western edge of campus helps remind motorists of the speed limit, while informing them how fast they are travelling as they drive towards Main Street.

The sign installed on the face of the Westaway Road bridge is part of the University's ongoing traffic and pedestrian safety management plan and is jointly funded by McMaster University and the City of Hamilton. Last summer the City of Hamilton made the portion of Cootes Drive on the west campus a 50 kmph zone and the radar signs are a visual reminder to slow down before the crosswalk at Sanders Boulevard.

"We are pleased with the shared effort with the City of Hamilton, ward 1 counsellor Brian McHattie and community members to enhance the safety of our campus and the surrounding area for pedestrians," says Terry Sullivan, director of security and parking services. "By increasing the number of visual reminders around campus we hope to raise awareness for both motorists and pedestrians to exercise caution."

A program is already underway at McMaster to make campus a more pedestrian-friendly space including painting every crosswalk with a large grid, using fluorescent paint for crosswalks, increasing the amount of stop signs on campus roads and encouraging the use of sidewalks.

"These are safe zones as pedestrians cross and move about campus," said Sullivan. "Most people walking around campus are using the designated sidewalks but these visual reminders are helpful to reinforce the importance of safety."

McMaster University and the City of Hamilton will continue to monitor campus and the surrounding area to enhance mobility for both pedestrians and motorists.

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  #49  
Old Posted May 15, 2009, 3:53 AM
sofasurfer sofasurfer is offline
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Originally Posted by highwater View Post
Have you had a chance to do much driving in downtown Toronto since you moved here? (...) It's the car culture and street design in car-centric cities that promotes the kind of behaviour you're talking about, not anything integral to Canadian drivers.
Fair points. I'd also contend that Florida has equally bad drivers, but I think that's probably more to do with the demographics and (allegedly - according to my in-laws who now live down there) no need for a retest, ever.

I'm all for some sensible traffic measures in our city. From others I've lived in, intelligent traffic management, increasing pedestrian-friendliness, and maintaining a decent vehicle flow rate doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Breaking up the 'boy racer' friendly design certainly seems a good start to me.

Out of interest, how long have Main and King been one-way in Hamilton?
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  #50  
Old Posted May 15, 2009, 3:59 AM
sofasurfer sofasurfer is offline
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
We do have a speed indication sign in Hamilton.........
Corrected

That's the first one I've heard of (and note it seems to be a Mac/city collaboration - so why nothing on Main West?)

Are there any more?

Also, the TfL report I linked to above (particularly the Kingston approach, which I saw first-hand) talks about a rotating system, which I think has more scope to have increased awareness/impact across a wider geographic area for minimum initial outlay. Surely that's a good thing?
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  #51  
Old Posted May 15, 2009, 4:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sofasurfer View Post
a good start to me.

Out of interest, how long have Main and King been one-way in Hamilton?
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  #52  
Old Posted May 15, 2009, 2:15 PM
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Wider lanes gives drivers an increased *perceived* level of safety so they drive faster. If we narrowed the lanes along downtown streets and widened the sidewalks to normal widths of an urban cenre (they were severely narrowed in either the 50's or 60's) then cars would drive slower because they would have a decreased *perceived* level of safety.

It is absolutely horrid to walk down certain sections of Main St. on the sidewalk and have a car whizz by about 12" from your face at 80km/h.
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  #53  
Old Posted May 15, 2009, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by adam View Post
Wider lanes gives drivers an increased *perceived* level of safety so they drive faster.
Right on. This is often called risk homeostasis. It's the idea that people have a certain perceived level of risk with which they're comfortable. If you make something feel safer, people will tend to take bigger risks to compensate for the increased safety.

The canonical example of this is the SUV that ends up lying on its side in a ditch after the first snowfall, because the driver thought "four wheel drive" meant they didn't have to slow down to account for the slippery road.

What makes risk homeostasis really significant is that, as adam implies with his use of the word "perceived" above, people are notoriously poor at assessing relative risks.

SUVs are a double whammy in this regard: they simultaneously a) feel safer than cars on account of their size and tank-like bearings, but b) are actually less safe than cars for both their occupants and for the occupants of other vehicles.

They have less responsive handling, longer stopping times, higher centres of gravity (making them more prone to rollovers), and less impact absorption engineered into their chassis.

At a more general level, risk homeostasis means that people driving on wide, straight roads with no obstacles will drive faster - so much faster, in fact, that their increased speed more than offsets the putative advantage of more streamlined road architecture.

This is why, for example, all those wide, treeless suburban roads tend to be both curvilinear and littered with stop signs: the road engineers made them wide and straight for 'increased safety', and then added the bends and stop signs in reaction to the fact that people were racing down those wide, straight suburban roads at high speeds.

Meanwhile, the residential streets of century-old suburbs are narrow, lined with curbside parking and overhung with mature tree branches - ostensibly a disaster-waiting-to-happen from a road engineering point of view.

The effect is to produce a strong perception in drivers that the street is dangerous. There's barely enough room to pass an oncoming vehicle, a child could dash out between parked cars at any moment, and the branches of the street trees hang down low over the road, creating a feeling of being indoors.

As a result, drivers slow right down and the street ends up safer that the wide, treeless suburban road.

(That's not even to mention the fact that such a street configuration means people have to spend less time driving in the first place, and hence are at lower overall risk of injury and death from collisions.)
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  #54  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2009, 4:28 AM
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SABBATICAL! SABBATICAL! is offline
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Downtown BIA might want to look into purchasing one of these devices themselves and setting it up. Wonder if the police would make them take it down?
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2009, 5:16 AM
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Ryan have you been reading Tom Vanderbilt's 'Traffic: Why We Drive the Way We Do (and What It Says About Us)'? I just picked up the book recently and it talks about a lot of the things you mentioned.
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