Washington DC's $1.5 billion, 37 mile streetcar network

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by electricron

I'm not so sure you could call that cheap? Some math:

$1,500 Million / 37 miles = $40.5 Million / mile.

Does that not include stations and operating infrastructure like the streetcars themselves?

Because it's a LOT less than $40.5 million per mile if that also includes the hardware and stations, as well as the utilities and street realignments.

[ajfroggie]

afiggatt/blockski: true, only at Rhode Island Ave does the Phase 3 map go into Maryland. But that same DDOT map has grey arrows suggesting "Future Streetcar Extensions" both north towards Silver Spring and south towards National Harbor.

My comment/observation was geared towards the lack of a comparable "grey arrow" into Rosslyn.

[blockski]

Originally Posted by ajfroggie

afiggatt/blockski: true, only at Rhode Island Ave does the Phase 3 map go into Maryland. But that same DDOT map has grey arrows suggesting "Future Streetcar Extensions" both north towards Silver Spring and south towards National Harbor.

My comment/observation was geared towards the lack of a comparable "grey arrow" into Rosslyn.

Yeah, I think Cirrus hit on the Rosslyn point - K street instead of M Street.

Perhaps if the New Blue Line ever gets built, they could go BART style on us and build a combined Metro-Streetcar underwater crossing into Rosslyn...

Another potential interaction with VA could be using the 14th Street bridge to connect the Columbia Pike line (and perhaps the Crystal City streetcar) to the DC network somewhere in SW DC.

[ajfroggie]

I was thinking about that bit today. Given that the 14th Street Bridge is a freeway bridge, and already over capcity, using Memorial Bridge might be more feasible.

[novawolverine]

Memorial Bridge would be better than the 14th St. Bridge, but where would it really go? It's still a dinky little streetcar that's not moving very fast. From the Pentagon to DT, the bus and metro are the best options and while it would be nice to have a streetcar go over the memorial bridge, it really wouldn't have much of a purpose. I think a streetcar into Rosslyn somehow over the key bridge and up Wilson Blvd. would be great though given the development style and travel patterns in "Orangington".

[blockski]

Originally Posted by ajfroggie

I was thinking about that bit today. Given that the 14th Street Bridge is a freeway bridge, and already over capcity, using Memorial Bridge might be more feasible.

Aside from the fact that it connects nothing to nothing (at least as far as transit patrons living and working in the area are concerned), that works.

The reality is that the 14th Street bridge complex needs some serious work and will likely see some changes by the time this streetcar connection would be made. The NCPC and others have already called for replacing (and completely redesigning) it.

I also don't see what it's freeway characteristics have to do with anything.

[ajfroggie]

Its freeway characteristics mean you couldn't just retrofit a streetcar line onto the existing bridge.

Now if the proposals by some to build a new 14th Street Bridge ever come to pass, then certainly a rail line could be incorporated into that. But that's the only way I see streetcar/LRT being able to use the 14th St Bridge.

Now Memorial Bridge, on the other hand, could be more easily reconfigured for a streetcar line. With a little bit of construction along the side of Route 110, and routing it up 23rd St, you could have a streetcar line directly connecting K Street with the Pentagon transit center. (perhaps an expansion of Phase 3's Rhode Island Ave line) It connects something to something, and I don't see the lack of "transit patrons living and working in the area" as a handicap here.

[new.slang]

I dont understand the advantage of streetcars vs busses.

[Busy Bee]

^It's strongest advantage is psychological more so than logistical.

[Cirrus]

There are plenty of logistical advantages of streetcar over buses.

1. Streetcars have higher capacity than buses. This means you need to hire fewer drivers, which saves money. This one of several ways streetcars can have lower operating costs than buses. Another is that the same streetcar vehicle lasts 30-40 years, while a bus rarely lasts more than 12.

2. Streetcars are more comfortable to ride than buses. One of the biggest reasons buses have bad reputations in many cities is that it's bumpy and uncomfortable to ride on them. Gliding along a rail is smoother than rumbling along on tires. That is a very big deal for riders.

3. Streetcars influence land use and can spur TOD. Buses very rarely do.

[geoking66]

Light rail (which is what DC is proposing, a streetcar is a misnomer in this case) has higher ridership than buses also because buses have a stigma, especially in rich areas such as northwest DC. Someone in Georgetown would almost definitely take the train rather than go on a bus.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

There are plenty of logistical advantages of streetcar over buses.

1. Streetcars have higher capacity than buses. This means you need to hire fewer drivers, which saves money. This one of several ways streetcars can have lower operating costs than buses. Another is that the same streetcar vehicle lasts 30-40 years, while a bus rarely lasts more than 12.

2. Streetcars are more comfortable to ride than buses. One of the biggest reasons buses have bad reputations in many cities is that it's bumpy and uncomfortable to ride on them. Gliding along a rail is smoother than rumbling along on tires. That is a very big deal for riders.

3. Streetcars influence land use and can spur TOD. Buses very rarely do.

Cirrus, your second point fell under my "psychological" claim—even though its physical, its one of the major reasons mentally that a rider would favor rail over rubber tires.

[donoteat]

Originally Posted by new.slang

I dont understand the advantage of streetcars vs busses.

Streetcars are cooler than buses.

What does one think when one thinks of taking the bus? On the bus, there's vomiting hobos, unidentifiable stains, loud diesel engines, more unidentifiable stains, hard plastic seats that clatter when you go over a bump, unidentifiable stains that are still wet when you sit on them, angry people on cellphones, etc.

The typical image of a streetcar involves the quaint views of yesterday's America, back when everything was amazing.

In short, in the public's view:

Bus:

Streetcar:

[Cirrus]

Cirrus, your second point fell under my "psychological" claim—even though its physical, its one of the major reasons mentally that a rider would favor rail over rubber tires.

It's important to explain that there are important, real-life reasons for the psychological thing. It's not just that people *think* streetcars are nicer, it's that streetcars *are* nicer in meaningful ways.