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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 1:26 AM
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PhxPavilion PhxPavilion is offline
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
I already gave you the last word on this, no need to bring it up again. This isn't the place to discuss such a topic.
First time I saw it. Don't bring up a topic which you are unwilling to discuss.
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 1:30 AM
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Originally Posted by PhxPavilion View Post
First time I saw it. Don't bring up a topic which you are unwilling to discuss.
Thats not what this thread is about, I didnt bring it up for a topic of debate, I brought it up months ago in reference to power production of upstream dams. That post was MONTHS ago and Im not going to get into a debate about it in this thread as thats not the topic. If you'd like to debate nuclear power I suggest you go find a Scientist to argue with but please stop mucking up this thread.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 2:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Tempe_Duck View Post
Why shoot so low? How about the Summer Olympics them selves. Hold it in the spring or fall. Hold the Sailing events in San Diego, rapid events on the Colorado river, near Grand Canyon. It could be an entire state event.

BTW, I believe we held part of the WBC last time it held.
I've been thinking a lot of how Phoenix could host the Summer Olympics someday.

It'd be the culmination of a lot of events on Phoenix's way to become a world city, but I think with a countywide effort it could be done. Some of things should already be done Olympics or not.

Think of transportation upgrades in context. UoP stadium would need 2 LRT routes on I-10 and Glendale Avenue to the present main line. That's one way of rationalizing the Maryvale issue with streetcars, and oh yeah, we'd need a few of those lines as well elsewhere. Amtrak and regional commuter rail would be needed as well.

Every single venue in the County would need to would have to be upgraded or replaced, and by the time the 2020's roll around every single one of them will need it. Every city has a stake. Wells Fargo Arena, Veterans Memorial Coliseum, Sun Devil Stadium, Mona Plummer, Chase Field, USAC, even the freaking Sundome are or will be old-timers by the time we could be ready. Imagine a $200 million capacity upgrade to UoP Stadium to bring it up to Olympic standards.

Other venues are purposely built and have varying levels of profitability and utility afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Su...lympics_venues

is a good starting point. Pick your analogs, eyeball the costs.

Shunyi Olympic Rowing-Canoeing Park is one I was looking at earlier. It's an 80 acre complex on the dot. I figure about $70 million to build it--the cost of 2 Federally subsidized miles of LRT incidentally. What downriver city would be a good candidate for this?

I didn't even know about velodromes before. Find some place by a mountain or regional park to build a cycling mecca. South Central Avenue? Pinal County?

I think it's pretty ridiculous we don't have an Olympic-class swimming complex already. This has been talked about already.

By 2030, the Golden Corridor will be approaching build out in places. I imagine cities in Pinal County would be interested in stepping up to share costs as they'd be looking for venues of their own. We will be at that point where Coolidge could be a contender for a 10,000 seat arena. I'm actually in favor of this. They'd probably have a minor league team or two as well.

World cities need international connections. If we could somehow turn the political climate here I'd like to see sailing happen in Guaymas, our closest deepwater port. Direct air/rail passenger connections anyone? What would that take?

How do we pay for it all?

A variety of taxes, namely Spring Training, football, and that @#$!ing state sales tax that's coming will have expired by then, leaving more room than exists at present to take on new projects. Venues at ASU (eg, the Mona Plummer Aquatics Complex's replacement) would be partially paid for out of those funds.

Everything that's taxed today with the exception of income would have to be raised even past the chunk we'd pay for transportation upgrades which alone would be difficult to stomach. The property tax is one I'm looking squarely at, I don't know what the average homeowner would pay. Sales taxes would be up by at least two cents (on $10) when everything was said and done. Rental car and hotel taxes would have to go way up, but there would be little if any resistance by the hotel operators. They campaigned for building UoP Stadium back in the day.

It's likely the venues would be owned/managed by a countywide stadium district after the Olympics were over and their operating costs be subsidized by the individual cities out of their general fund, so there would be backdoor costs as well.

As pie in the sky as it sound, the Olympics in Phoenix are a natural outgrowth of a stalwart industry here. We certainly have enough to gain by them whether the Games pass whatever economic impact/feasibility/profitability study or not. The political will could be found and cities are learning about cooperation to do it. While I'm loathe to raise taxes for sporting venues when there are enough problems elsewhere, I'm certain that the Olympics as a reward for our combined efforts would make massive inroads in places we don't even know about.

Last edited by combusean; Feb 16, 2010 at 3:13 AM.
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 3:18 AM
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^A few things:

You wouldn't likely need to build a purpose built Velodrome, that new mid sized arena being proposed for the US Basketball HQ could be temporarily used as one I imagine since a huge capacity isn't really need for an event like that. Or some place like the Coliseum could be retrofitted.

For rowing Im sure Tempe Town Lake would work, even if you had to expand it West a bit or whatever.

Sun Devil Stadium & Wells Fargo Arena are both in need of and have major renovations planned to them, so ASU could foot a large portion of that bill themselves through their booster base over time.

Our litany of Spring Training facilities could be temporarily retro fitted for various events, Im sure even in their present state they'd be fine for stuff like archery, beach volleyball, etc. Plus don't forget the Convention Center which has huge ballrooms that could host some events like it did for the NBA All Star Game Celebrity Game. Plus if you knocked down the South Building and replaced it with something that continued the super large underground ballroom space you'd have even more room.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention the Dodge Theater, it has a good boxing set up so it could host that and/or other martial arts. New gyms/arenas around 5-8K could be built at ASU West & Poly and serve as their main sporting facilities if they ever spin off into their own universities. You couldn't really count on Chase Field being available since the Olympics overlap with baseball season and you can't send the D'backs on a month long road trip. You could perhaps hold one event in there with a setup like the used for the Insight Bowl but it would be tricky.

But like I said, the Valley needs to continue to prove itself capable of events like this before you try to hit the home run that is the Olympics. Rio smartly hosted the Pan Am games as a warm up and thats the kind of thing we'd have to do too. Here would be my dream scenario:

2011: Phoenix/Chase field hosts MLB All Star Game

2011 or '12: Phoenix/Jobing.com hosts the NHL All Star Game

2012: Phoenix hosts Republican National Convention

2013: Phoenix/Chase Field hosts the World Baseball Classic.

2014: Phoenix/UofP hosts Super Bowl XLVIII

2015: Phoenix hosts FIBA Americas basketball championship

2018: Phoenix: USAC, WFA, the Coliseum & Jobing.com host the FIBA World Basketball Championships, w/ some games played at McKale Center, TCC Arena, the new mid sized Glendale USA Hoops facility or the Walkup Skydome if necessary.

2019: Phoenix hosts Pan Am games

2020: Phoenix hosts Expo 2020*, the fairgrounds could later be re-purposed for the Olympics

2022: Phoenix one of multiple US cities to host soccer World Cup games (this could also happen in 2018 depending on the US's bid)

2024: Phoenix hosts the Summer Olympics

2025: HooverDam dies of an awesomness induced heart attack in peace.

*fill up the Salt River to 19th Ave, use the large empty swaths on both banks, along with bridges an islands near Central Ave as the fairgrounds. Similar to Expo '67 in Montreal and Expo '08 in Zaragoza, Spain. Other US cities (Houston, Vegas, San Fran, NYC) are already talking about Expo 2020 and getting the US back into the Worlds Fair game, Phoenix ought to wise up and take notice.

Last edited by HooverDam; Feb 16, 2010 at 3:21 PM.
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 3:32 PM
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The Olympics are generally bad for the local economy. Most cities are left with tens of millions in debt. Wasn't Barcelona 92 the last Summer Olympics that made money for the city?

This will never happen here. It is too controversial for our NIMBY, ultra conservative, population that is outraged over LRT, Loop 202 alignment, buildings over 3 stories, etc. We would never build the infrastructure required to host the games.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 3:39 PM
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I was just having this conversation with someone else. I totally think Arizona could handle the Olympics. Obviously we would have to spread it out amongst the entire state - there is no way we could host the whole thing here. But I feel that most of our spring training facilities could host track & field events like javelin, archery, and all of that old timey stuff. Golf is supposed to be added in 2016 and lord knows we have enough courses. The multiple basketball arenas could host those while the Colosseum could host cycling. The UofPhx stadium is plenty big enough for opening events as well as track and field short distance running. You could also host soccer matches in there as well as Chase Field. You could possibly host smaller matches at a retrofitted Phx Muni, Reach 11, or...possibly once it gets built out - Francisco Grande's new soccer facilities.
Looking over the events, I feel like we simply need to add some pools and a velodrome. Everything else would require minimal conversion.

Archery - spring training facility
Badminton - Tucson Arena
Basketball - USAC, new USA Basketball Center
Boxing - Celebrity Theater, Dodger Theater
Canoeing- Tempe Town Lake
Cricket - Spring Training Facility
Cycling - (track) retrofitted Memorial Colosseum, (road) Sonoran Bike Trail, (mountain) some desert trail, (BMX) newly constructed ramps
Diving - ASU/UofA-built pools
Equestrian - West World
Fencing - Phx Convention Center
Football - UofPhx Stadium/Reach 11/Francisco Grande
Golf - multiple courses around valley
Gymnastics - Wells Fargo Arena
Handball - There has to be somewhere, right?
Hockey (field) - Spring Training Facility
Judo - Phx Convention Center
Modern pentathlon - mix of available spaces
Rowing - Tempe Town Lake
Rugby sevens - Sun Devil Stadium
Sailing - Im not sure how large a space you need for this but it seems Powell or Havasu might work?
Shooting - Ben Avery Range
Swimming - ASU/UofA-built pools
Synchronized swimming - ASU/UofA-built pools
Table tennis - Phx/Tuc Convention Center
Taekwondo - Phx/Tuc Convention Center
Tennis - ASU
Triathlon - various sites
Volleyball - Wells Fargo/Tucson Arena
Water polo - ASU/UofA-built pools
Weightlifting - Phx Convention Center
Wrestling - Phx/Tuc Convention Center
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 4:14 PM
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Let's be realistic: Phoenix would have to create an Olympic Village. No way this city is willing or able to take on that kind of expense.

I'd be in favor of it if they would bulldoze down Garfield and take over the whole sq. mile and build an urban village with thousands of units to house the athletes during the games and new residents afterwards.
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 4:40 PM
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So you think housing is out of the question? Because, as far as I can tell, a master-planned community is what we do best around here. Why couldn't we turn the lot at Roosevelt & 3rd/5th into a massive housing complex? Close to light rail, downtown, and a large enough lot to house thousands of future ASU students after the thing is over.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Let's be realistic: Phoenix would have to create an Olympic Village. No way this city is willing or able to take on that kind of expense.

I'd be in favor of it if they would bulldoze down Garfield and take over the whole sq. mile and build an urban village with thousands of units to house the athletes during the games and new residents afterwards.
Let's be more realistic, the Olympics aren't about what the host city can provide, they're about what the selection committee wants. Lots of cities could host the olympics. Phoenix is better positioned than most because of the number of Spring training sites, but it is loaded with nimby's, it doesn't have the transit infrastructure to move the millions of people that would show up for the games (or at least that the Olympics plan on showing up), and we would never vote to tax ourselves enough to upgrade our infrastructure the way it would need to be upgraded. Very little sets us apart from other cities in the US, much less the world. I love Phoenix, but I just don't think we have what the selection committee would be looking for, and I think a lot of people living here prefer it that way.

More to the point, Phoenix is in the US. The US hosted the olympics 14 years ago, and 12 years before that. I think a big part of the reason Chicago got passed over is because the selection committee is trying to pick more diverse cities (London snuck in there somehow) and countries. Mexico City or somewhere in Canada or even the Carribbean has a much better chance of passing that standard.

Oh, and I think at least 1 marathon runner would actually die if we tried to do a marathon in June or July
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
The Olympics are generally bad for the local economy. Most cities are left with tens of millions in debt. Wasn't Barcelona 92 the last Summer Olympics that made money for the city?
I realize that the winter games are different in scale and cost than the summer games, but the 2002 Olympics returned a profit of over $100million for Salt Lake City.
source
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 6:11 PM
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I really think Phoenix is VERY different than most other cities. The fact that we already have multiple stadiums scattered around the valley makes us quite unique. Most summer olympic hosts fail to turn a profit because they must build new arenas for so many different events. As I listed earlier, I feel that the investment would be quite manageable if done right. There are plenty of places that need simple retrofits like adding seating or re-turfing the fields. Most of our arenas were built with the idea of hosting large-scale events in the future. I have watched World Cup Qualifier soccer in both UofPhx and Chase Field and if FIFA approves of the venue, I don't see why the IOC wouldn't. Tempe Town Lake was built with the vision to host world-class events and hosts many triathlons and competitions. It is plenty long enough to host all of those style events with the exception of sailing. What did they do in Atlanta when they had sailing????
You guys are right though - the infrastructure is a big deal. We would have to have light rail running from the airport to tempe, downtown, Glendale, and the Memorial Colosseum. We would need HSR from Phx to Tucson. Aren't those things we have already budgeted for? Haven't we spent the time and money studying the possibilities of running both? Aren't they "in the works"? We are talking about 2020 by the time we could have a CHANCE at hosting them. In 10 years, if we don't have HSR to Tucson, we all might as well pack it up and leave. This could be the great catalyst that sparks real development and real urban planning in Arizona.
The ONLY reason Salt Lake is so much more advanced than we are is because of the Olympics. Are SLC NIMBYS any worse than PHX?
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 6:22 PM
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Will we even have another light rail line by 2020?
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 6:52 PM
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^Ya, Im not sure we'll make it to Dunlap by then...
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 9:03 PM
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How many people can the Convention Center conceivably fit for an athletic event? Every sport in the Games is at its own facility for about 8,000 people or so. I know the CC rooms are pretty big but I'm 99% sure the only one that's column free is the top ballroom.

2020 seems way too early--only 10 years out. That's not far enough if we have to have a transportation network built out before we could even be considered for hosting them. 2028 or 2032 seems more logical, and I'm assuming the best case scenario is one where we are awarded them, we vote on them--if it passes we get them, if it fails they go to the next city.

I'm not so sure the games can be hosted at outdoor venues here at least, at least not optimally. Athens was built on the cheap but we have climate issues to deal with and I'd assume most venues would have to be indoors.

The biggest problem with UoP stadium today is that it's just not big enough. Main Olympic venues (eg, opening/closing ceremonies) are at stadiums for 90,000 people and above.

Curious: special taxes for martial arts gear and classes for a purpose built judo venue? cycling equipment for a velodrome?

Last edited by combusean; Feb 16, 2010 at 9:32 PM.
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 9:26 PM
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Well I was just saying 2020 is the next AVAILABLE one. I don't think they would give it to us. Ten years isn't really enough time to get all of this organized.

I don't think different events have different venues. Looking at Atlanta as a model (which, it is reasonably comparable considering it's land-locked & very suburban)
Centennial Olympic Stadium (Now known as Turner Field) – Opening/Closing Ceremonies, Athletics
Georgia Dome – Basketball, Artistic Gymnastics, Handball
Georgia Tech Aquatic Center – Swimming, Diving, Synchronized Swimming, Water Polo
Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium – Baseball
Georgia World Congress Center – Fencing, Handball, Judo, Table Tennis, Weightlifting, Wrestling
Omni Coliseum – Volleyball
Panther Stadium – Hockey
Herndon Stadium – Hockey
Georgia State University Sports Arena – Badminton
Forbes Arena (Morehouse College) – Basketball
Alexander Memorial Coliseum – Boxing

Turner Field could seat 85,000 when it was built. UofPhx stadium can seat 72,200. I know 10,000 is a lot of people but I don't see that being some sort of deal-breaker. FWIW, Sun Devil Stadium seats 76,000.
The Georgia Dome is more in line with UofPhx stadium since it can host "indoor" events as well.
Fulton Cnty Stadium was a P.O.S. in 1996. We have spring training facilities better than that.
The Congress Center is MUCH bigger than the Phx Convention Center but you could house some of the events in Tucson's as well.
The Omni is comparable with USAC
and the rest of the buildings are comparable to our college stadiums/arenas.
Many of the soccer matches for the 1996 Olympics were actually held in far-away cities like DC, Miami, & Birmingham. We could just as easily spread the matches out to Home Depot Center or Pizza Hut Park.
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Let's be realistic: Phoenix would have to create an Olympic Village. No way this city is willing or able to take on that kind of expense.

I'd be in favor of it if they would bulldoze down Garfield and take over the whole sq. mile and build an urban village with thousands of units to house the athletes during the games and new residents afterwards.
The Union Pacific rail yards immediately east of Downtown. I've been looking at that 200+ acre plot for a while, and I don't think it will be necessary if UP ever builds the Picacho yards.

There are larger undeveloped sites along the river that would be worthy of consideration as well. One I like is 7th Ave and Watkins to 19th south of Lower Buckeye. That is BIG, and could be the centerpiece of an extended river development (more Town Lake and less Rio Salado) should the construction of one be necessary for the Games. On the other hand, I wonder if that would affect airport operations. What cities have enormous international airports on their river?

The Olympic Village is where private investment mixed with cheap urban land as well as other incentives would really shine.
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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
Well I was just saying 2020 is the next AVAILABLE one. I don't think they would give it to us. Ten years isn't really enough time to get all of this organized.

I don't think different events have different venues. Looking at Atlanta as a model (which, it is reasonably comparable considering it's land-locked & very suburban)
Centennial Olympic Stadium (Now known as Turner Field) – Opening/Closing Ceremonies, Athletics
Georgia Dome – Basketball, Artistic Gymnastics, Handball
Georgia Tech Aquatic Center – Swimming, Diving, Synchronized Swimming, Water Polo
Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium – Baseball
Georgia World Congress Center – Fencing, Handball, Judo, Table Tennis, Weightlifting, Wrestling
Omni Coliseum – Volleyball
Panther Stadium – Hockey
Herndon Stadium – Hockey
Georgia State University Sports Arena – Badminton
Forbes Arena (Morehouse College) – Basketball
Alexander Memorial Coliseum – Boxing

Turner Field could seat 85,000 when it was built. UofPhx stadium can seat 72,200. I know 10,000 is a lot of people but I don't see that being some sort of deal-breaker. FWIW, Sun Devil Stadium seats 76,000.
The Georgia Dome is more in line with UofPhx stadium since it can host "indoor" events as well.
Fulton Cnty Stadium was a P.O.S. in 1996. We have spring training facilities better than that.
The Congress Center is MUCH bigger than the Phx Convention Center but you could house some of the events in Tucson's as well.
The Omni is comparable with USAC
and the rest of the buildings are comparable to our college stadiums/arenas.
Many of the soccer matches for the 1996 Olympics were actually held in far-away cities like DC, Miami, & Birmingham. We could just as easily spread the matches out to Home Depot Center or Pizza Hut Park.
The Olympics get bigger every year with more athletes and more sports, which is why I was considering venues for the last two and the next. Still, I had not considered Atlanta as a model. Thanks for that information.
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
I'm not so sure the games can be hosted at outdoor venues here at least, at least not optimally. Athens was built on the cheap but we have climate issues to deal with and I'd assume most venues would have to be indoors.
Phoenix isn't the first hot place to host an olympics. I don't think athletes today are nearly as wimpy as we give them credit for, they can handle the heat outdoors here just like they've been able to handle adverse weather in other locations. The only event I'd really have concerns about would be the marathons.

Quote:
The biggest problem with UoP stadium today is that it's just not big enough. Main Olympic venues (eg, opening/closing ceremonies) are at stadiums for 90,000 people and above.
The issue isn't the seating, it's the field space. Stadiums for opening/closing ceremonies are typically the same stadium where track and field events are held, and that means the field needs to be big enough for a track. University of Phoenix Stadium was purpose built for a football field, I don't think there's enough room for a track in there. Same reason why the Coliseum that USC uses is so lousy for football, a stadium with enough room for a track is too big for a football field.
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  #79  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
The Olympics get bigger every year with more athletes and more sports, which is why I was considering venues for the last two and the next. Still, I had not considered Atlanta as a model. Thanks for that information.
London is trying to reverse that trend. They've realized that the ceremonies are just getting beyond ridiculous.
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  #80  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2010, 10:48 PM
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I don't see the Olympics ever coming to a cheap lowest-common-denominator state like Arizona.

People shoot each other over taxes here for crying out loud.

--don
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