Westside Express Service - Trimet's Commuter Rail

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by Lakelander

Some may not like the Florida project but lets at least be honest. The state has already paid for 90 miles of ROW, project engineering and has agreed to add $570 million to the money given by the Feds.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...095083750.html

Good on Florida for getting this going... I don't want to take away form it.

But California deserved that money ten times more than you. It's not a slight on Florida, it's just fact.

[MightyAlweg]

Originally Posted by Lakelander

Some may not like the Florida project but lets at least be honest. The state has already paid for 90 miles of ROW, project engineering and has agreed to add $570 million to the money given by the Feds.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...095083750.html

I'm all for the Florida plan, if only because I love trains, especially fast ones. But it's not as if Florida voters have shown their approval for this plan in the form of tax increases or bond measures. And the 90 miles of ROW exists because it runs right down the middle of Interstate 4, which is the classic 12 lane suburban superfreeway built with wide drainage banks, collection ponds (it's all swampland, remember) and massive grassy medians built through the middle of the huge freeway. It was an easy and pre-existing route to use with little to no cost for land clearing and site prep.

Interesting article in the LA Times today as well, as the California plan has plenty of hurdles ahead. Anaheim has a nice station planned and land ready for their ARTIC facility. Anaheim officials have secured funding too, and have worked closely with local powerhouses like Disney, the Angels, and Honda Center to create a strong community partnership supporting it all. http://www.articinfo.com/

But the station at Los Angeles is going to be very tough to design and build. Buena Park, a northern Orange County suburb, has just been told they may have to rip out and level their snazzy new mixed-use transit-oriented housing development at the Metrolink station there to make way for the high speed route. It would be like ripping out and bulldozing Orenco Station in Hillsborough after all the housing had tenants and all the shops were filled. There will be a fight in Buena Park, to be sure. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,5686672.story

And this in California, a state that has been gearing up for this for years. Tampa and Orlando have yet to release so much as a sketch made on a cocktail napkin of what their main stations will look like, or how they will integrate into downtown Tampa, Orlando International Airport, and Disney World (on the Mouse's property, no less).

I can only imagine how a similar massive rail project might create problems in established cities like Portland, Tacoma and Seattle.

[Lakelander]

Originally Posted by JordanL

Good on Florida for getting this going... I don't want to take away form it.

But California deserved that money ten times more than you. It's not a slight on Florida, it's just fact.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about it but talk to Obama about this. No state got more than 50% of their request, so regardless of whether the money went to Florida or some other place, it wasn't going to Cali.

[Lakelander]

Originally Posted by MightyAlweg

I'm all for the Florida plan, if only because I love trains, especially fast ones. But it's not as if Florida voters have shown their approval for this plan in the form of tax increases or bond measures.

We voted to fund it in the 2000 referendum, which passed btw. Unfortunately, it was overturned after a misinformation campaign by our governor Jeb Bush at the time. Btw, you don't need tax increases to fund this stuff. You can get things done by changing your priorities with the amount of money already coming in. As a fan of cost effective sustainable options, I prefer the method of better utilization of cash already coming in.

And the 90 miles of ROW exists because it runs right down the middle of Interstate 4, which is the classic 12 lane suburban superfreeway built with wide drainage banks, collection ponds (it's all swampland, remember) and massive grassy medians built through the middle of the huge freeway. It was an easy and pre-existing route to use with little to no cost for land clearing and site prep.

Growing up about 12 miles from I-4 and working in Lakeland when the expansion project was under construction I'll say that you are well off base. The extra land and new lane layout was purposely done to allow the future construction of a double tracked rail system in the median. We (John Q. Florida taxpayers) paid for that. If rail were not a part of the plan, the vast amount of land purchased would have not been needed.

Btw, I'm not a real fan of the current Florida HSR plan. Imo, with rail, the state should learn to walk before it runs. I believe we could have accomplished more for a much cheaper price with an Amtrak corridor service (something similar to the Pacific Surfliner) or commuter rail on existing rail lines. A Caltrain style commuter system featuring baby bullet express trains would probably attract more riders than HSR will because the existing rail corridors travel where Central Florida residents already live and I-4 bypasses the centers of every city in the area outside of Tampa and Orlando. However, I don't mind adding some facts to the discussion about Florida's planning behind HSR.

And this in California, a state that has been gearing up for this for years. Tampa and Orlando have yet to release so much as a sketch made on a cocktail napkin of what their main stations will look like, or how they will integrate into downtown Tampa, Orlando International Airport, and Disney World (on the Mouse's property, no less).

I'm sure California's plan will be nice when they finally get it up and running. However, I'm not here to compare and contrast or say who should or should not be getting federal money. If you guys haven't figured out, this is all a political shell game. Florida is a political hotbed and the project is a small one that makes for quick implementation. If it creates the 23,000 jobs people think it will, Florida will vote for Obama again in four years which would give him a great chance at reelection. Dump all that money into Cali, instead of spreading it around to political hotbeds and he'll be out office pretty quick and so will everyone's HSR plans since the Republicans would quickly eliminate all HSR funding. As for Florida's stations, here are a few random images for plans I've seen so far.



Downtown Tampa


Lakeland - University of South Florida Polytechnic station by Santiago Calatrava


Disney/Celebration


Orlando International Airport

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by JordanL

Good on Florida for getting this going... I don't want to take away form it.

But California deserved that money ten times more than you. It's not a slight on Florida, it's just fact.

I love facts based on opinion. They're my favorites!

If this project gets a single car off the I4 corridor, it will have been worth its weight in gold. That's a fact (based on my opinion, naturally). I4 is one of the most dangerous roads in the country. When I lived in Daytona, I got used to seeing the most horrific wrecks on that road. I'm not saying this project will do anything to fix I4, but Florida has transportation needs too. I don't doubt this is one of them.

[MightyAlweg]

Originally Posted by Lakelander

As for Florida's stations, here are a few random images for plans I've seen so far.

Downtown Tampa


Lakeland - University of South Florida Polytechnic station by Santiago Calatrava


Disney/Celebration


Orlando International Airport

Yes, I've seen the Google Earth screenshots with the proposed station locations overlayed on them with red lines on the Florida High Speed Rail website. That's not hard to do, and I'm assuming the same 8th grade kid who made the website also did the station grids in the locations. How do the folks that own all those buildings to be used for the Tampa station feel about those orange hash marks over their property, I wonder?

Now, that Calatrava designed station for Lakeland is the first actual profesional rendering I've seen of a Florida HSR station. That's a very nifty way of slotting in a station in the middle of an I-4 interchange. Very cool! That photo also should give the Oregonians here a good idea of the topography and space allotments this I-4 route from Tampa to Orlando would be built in. Most of the I-4 route makes I-5 through the Willamette Valley look like Manhattan at rush hour. It's the Tampa and MCO and Disney World stations that are going to cause problems, once they get past the orange hashmarks phase of the planning process.

Interestingly, Disney has been very quiet on the HSR topic. They issued a very vague and non-commital statement in '09 about possibly allowing a station to be built on the edge of their property as long as they had final control over it, but since then they've been completely silent. This HSR system obviously won't be convenient for most tourists to use to get from the airport to Disney World, but perhaps some trips from Tampa might open up for them. Still, the silence from Disney, the elephant in the room for this part of the country, is deafening.

[ProTram]

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but can we start talking about WES on the WES page again?

[65MAX]

^^^^
There is a "High Speed Rail" thread. Move this discussion over there.

Speaking of WES..... TriMet's proposing to cut service on WES in September. If anything, service should be increased. Ideally, it should be a continuation of the MAX Red Line and converted to light rail. Does anyone know if the trains use the same guage of track? I think they do, in which case it's just a matter of electrification and double tracking.

Oh, and some additional stations.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

^^^^
Speaking of WES..... TriMet's proposing to cut service on WES in September. If anything, service should be increased.

I can't imagine how that's possible. Isn't WES bleeding money?

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

^^^^
There is a "High Speed Rail" thread. Move this discussion over there.

Speaking of WES..... TriMet's proposing to cut service on WES in September. If anything, service should be increased. Ideally, it should be a continuation of the MAX Red Line and converted to light rail. Does anyone know if the trains use the same guage of track? I think they do, in which case it's just a matter of electrification and double tracking.

Oh, and some additional stations.

But if it's a continuation of the MAX line, it shouldn't follow exactly the same route as WES. There are too many destinations which are near WES stations, but, given it's the suburbs, not close enough to walk. Washington Sq, for example, Kruse Way, Bridgeport Village, Lincoln Center (? the office park next to Wash. Sq).

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

^^^^
There is a "High Speed Rail" thread. Move this discussion over there.

Speaking of WES..... TriMet's proposing to cut service on WES in September. If anything, service should be increased. Ideally, it should be a continuation of the MAX Red Line and converted to light rail. Does anyone know if the trains use the same guage of track? I think they do, in which case it's just a matter of electrification and double tracking.

Oh, and some additional stations.

yes, they're both standard gauge. They'd have to rebuild the stations, too, since the platforms are much higher for the DMUs. Not to mention that it shares ROW with freight trains, and LRVs are not FRA compliant.

Metro's high capacity transit plan lists the WES corridor as one of the near-term corridors for high capacity transit (along with Barbur and Powell) ... but they mention only improving headways to 15-minutes and running it all day instead of just peak-hour.

[Lakelander]

Originally Posted by ProTram

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but can we start talking about WES on the WES page again?

No problem, sorry about that. Why is WES' ridership levels so low?

[65MAX]

Because the frequency (once every half hour, only during morning and afternoon rush hours) makes it useless for anything but strictly 9-5 type commuters. It severely limits the number of potential users. That, combined with the recession....

If they could increase the frequency to every 15 minutes all day (or at least 15 minutes during rush hour, 30 minutes the rest of the day), people would start seeing this as a pseudo-MAX line.

[Okstate]

^ I agree. I wouldn't consider living right on the Wes line even if it went directly to my work at 30 minute intervals. I have issue waiting ten minutes for most transit (as does probably 80% of all choice users).

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by Okstate

^ I agree. I wouldn't consider living right on the Wes line even if it went directly to my work at 30 minute intervals. I have issue waiting ten minutes for most transit (as does probably 80% of all choice users).

Yeah, those minutes really add up. At 35 MPH you can travel over 5 miles in 10 minutes in a car, which is the distance between Downtown and Gateway.

Waiting 10 minutes for the bus or the MAX is just about my limit unless I have no choice.

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by Lakelander

No problem, sorry about that. Why is WES' ridership levels so low?

Probably doesn't help that it only connects low density and auto dependent suburbs.

[bvpcvm]

Commuter Rail to Salem

SALEM -- A proposal by two Oregon lawmakers to extend commuter rail from Portland suburbs to Salem gets its first airing Monday at the Legislature.

Rep. Mitch Greenlick, D-Portland, and Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, D-Beaverton, have sponsored a bill that would create a task force to study the viability of running trains from the Westside Express Service commuter line, or WES, down to the state capital.

[pdxtraveler]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Commuter Rail to Salem

Big supporter of commuter rail to Salem. However I think commuter rail should go to Union Station... Yes, I know, you have to deal with control of the lines and how that usually goes..

[jaxg8r1]

Would this necessitate bigger trains?

[dabom]

if it could go on the tracks that go threw lo and og this would be a good idea. it could connect to the max