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  #1361  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 5:57 AM
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Now, this page says they shot in the Sunshine Apartments. Hell, Wikipedia says they shot in the Sunshine Apartments. But you heard it hear first, folks: they didn't.

And I'm about to tell you why. Now, not that they didn't shoot at the Sunshine Apartments. To wit:

So the bad guys arrive on Bunker Hill. Trudge trudge trudge.






This is without doubt the Sunshine. There's the McCoy House below. The whole bit.


(California State Archives)

But the first thing they do is go to see Finchley (Alan Napier -- while he was camping it up as Batman's butler, Yvonne De Carlo was Lily Munster, that is, fifteen years later -- hmm) and Finchley lives in the Astoria. That's my guess -- check out the angle.



I think he's in the Astoria looking back at the Belmont with the Hillcrest or Sunshine on the right (above) --


Last edited by Beaudry; May 27, 2010 at 6:31 AM.
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  #1362  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 6:24 AM
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So, the clincher is, there are no bay windows in the Sunshine.

Bay windows, you see, are in the Hillcrest, just up the hill. Now take a look at these shots of their whole "planning the caper bit":





That's a bay window. Just like the Hillcrest had.



Plus it fits with being just across from the back-end of the Elks, across Clay from the Hulburt. I mean, if they were in the Sunshine, wouldn't there be a crazy-deep porch out the window?

On the other hand, there may be a bay window at the very corner of the Sunshine. And it looms over Clay. But wouldn't that giant sign get in the way?



And where is the railing out the window?

My goodness, the things that keep me up at night.
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  #1363  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 1:58 PM
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you ain't the only one who's been kept up late at night trying to figure out those "sunshine apartment" fenestration angles from Criss Cross.

Finchley's single double hung window has always gotten me riled. the sunshine nor the hillcrest definitely never had a dogleg section that would have afforded the view out Finchley's window. Only the astoria could have provided the view looking due east at the back of the belmont. and there is a small dogleg section, just below the tower of the astoria that would provide the view

This can be seen in the WPA drawing i posted some time ago



Also, the view out Finchley's window is remarkably similar to this shot from The indestructible man, taken behind the astoria.



The view out the caper planning room window has also bothered me for what seems like forever. The view certainly looks like an angle from the sunshine, but there are definitely no bay windows in the sunshine. (once again, see wpa drawing above). at first i thought that maybe the room was in the astoria, as it has bay windows, but in order to have a shot through the center pane of the triple bay window, that is not looking directly at the back of the sunshine, it would have to be on a high floor, which would not provide the view that is shown of olivet and sinai gliding past.

the only place where this view can be accomplished through a bay window is in a south east corner room in the Hillcrest
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  #1364  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 2:54 PM
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not much on berkeley square yet, but i did find this little illustration with blurbage about the use of concrete in residential structures.

One reason for the high cost of reinforced concrete construction was the need to erect wood or metal forms and then dismantle them after the concrete had been poured. Inventors, engineers, contractors, and architects proposed a wide array of solutions to this problem. Precast concrete blocks, of a size workers could handle, were one solution. Another, used by the engineer E. Duryee for his own 1909 house in Los Angeles, was the movable slip form. "Enough [forms] were used to build one foot of wall around the entire building and they were raised one foot daily after the first pouring." In his J. Wesley Roberts House on Berkeley Square, Los Angeles (1910), the architect B. Cooper Corbett used prebuilt reinforced concrete panels for his forms. It was noted that "these will not be removed but will become part of the permanent structure furnishing the finished surfaces."

unfortunately, no address is given


Karlstrom, Paul J., editor On the Edge of America: California Modernist Art, 1900-1950. Berkeley: University of California Press

I did find the names and addresses of some of the Berkeley Square residences on the "Who's who on the Pacific Coast; a biographical compilation of notable living contemporaries west of the Rocky Mountains" website......(whew, that was indeed a mouthful)

BURKE, Carlton Francis. Real estate and
insurance. Res. 26 Berkeley Square, (hmmmmmmmmmmmmm you found that the Berkeley Square founders, the Burkes were at #6)

LEEDS, Walter Ransome. Lawyer.
Res. 22 Berkeley Square.....(hmmmmmmmm again, you found a source that listed the Leeds Residence at #14)

PHILLIPS, Lee Allen. Lawyer.
Res. 4 Berkeley Square....(yay! we got a match!)

and the hunt (myron or otherwise), continues....................
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  #1365  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 5:47 PM
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The Roberts house was planned for Berkeley Square, and, if built there by that family as early as the date on the Corbett plans (1910), must have been sold fairly soon afterwards. By the '20s, the Robertses were at 2151 W. 21st St., a house that still stands and looks very similar in form to the Corbett design (btw, the freeway is now literally across the street from the 21st St. house). There is a photograph of the Roberts house as built, labeled Berkeley Square and "C. Wesley Roberts" (a typo? The father of J. Wesley?), here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MG4...hitect&f=false

(Scroll to pp 467/468-- I don't have the expertise to get the pic and the floor plan posted here--can you, gs?)

The Roberts house, if indeed built on Berkeley Square, possibly became known later by one of a number of names of other early owners, possibly Reilley or Bacon, who, among others, owned masonry houses on the street.

As for the numbering--it looks like early on, lot numbers may have been used for addresses. Lot 26, for instance, was eventually addressed as #6; lot 22 became #14. It seems that Baist maps, which have the lot numbers prominently drawn, were consulted by various editors even into the 20s, resulting in the confusion. The Phillips house, #4, was built across three lots at the southeast corner of the square, originally numbered 28, 29, and 30, which would have corresponded with address numbers 2, 4, and 6. (The original 30 lots became 20, several owners taking multiple lots and altering lot lines.)
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  #1366  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaylordWilshire View Post
I don't have the expertise to get the pic and the floor plan posted here--can you, gs?)
I can help out in that department





and just for comparison sake, here is the rendering that i posted previously



it is indeed the same house as the rendering.

here is the current house courtesy of googlemaps



it looks like they softened the precast panels on either side of the north and south windows, and built those windows as bay windows

weird how the home was designed for Berkeley Square, and then was built just outside the community to the west

on second thought, i'm going to have to say that the googlemaps photo is of a different building that was inspired by the house built in Berkeley Square. There are quite a few details that are different between the two structures.

Last edited by gsjansen; May 26, 2010 at 7:23 PM.
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  #1367  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 9:38 PM
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Wow Beaudry, your 'Criss Cross' screen captures and information are priceless. I appreciate all your hard work.

Like I said earlier, I haven't seen 'Criss Cross' so take this with a grain of salt.

The two interior shots of 'planning the caper bit', look like they might have been shot on a set at the studio with a rear projection of Angels Flight. A set would have given them the ample room for all the camera/sound equipment and the lighting set ups
(and the lighting is both exquisite AND precise...especially in that second shot).

So if the 'angles' don't quite add up with the 'location', perhaps this is why.

Last edited by ethereal_reality; May 27, 2010 at 12:13 AM.
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  #1368  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 9:54 PM
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Beaudry, I noticed in this screen shot from 'Criss Cross' you caught a glimpse of the Dragon's Den.




Beaudry/Criss Cross




The Dragon's Den was a very interesting place.
The restaurant was located in the basement of the F. Suie One Company.
It was a favorite haunt of Walt Disney and the Marx Bros.
And it's brick walls were festooned with exotic murals. (I wish I had a good photo of the interior).




Below: This photo is dated 1949. The Dragon's Den was established in 1935.



calisphere



Below: Here's a good view of the rest of the street. Notice Jerry's Joynt (see my post# 1350) towards the end of the block.


calisphere




...and one more.

I love the white building that is built out over the sidewalk.
If I remember correctly, underneath all the add-ons was one of the original adobes of 'Sonora Town'.


calisphere

Last edited by ethereal_reality; Jul 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM.
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  #1369  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
Wow Beaudry, your 'Criss Cross' screen captures and information are priceless. I appreciate all your hard work.

Like I said earlier, I haven't seen 'Criss Cross' so take this with a grain of salt.

The two interior shots of 'planning the caper bit', look like they could have been shot on a set at the studio with a rear projection of Angels Flight. It just seems a set would have given them the ample room for all the camera/sound equipment and the lighting set ups
(and the lighting is both exquisite AND precise...especially in that second shot).

So if the angles don't quite 'add up' with the 'location', perhaps this is why.
Nope, I'm sold. Totally sold. Here's why.



Look where the Flight passes. Right where the quoins end on the southern edge of the Elks building where it ends at Clay. Here, from Kiss Me Deadly:



To get that shot you'd have to be standing right on the edge of the bottom porch of the Sunshine.

Not the only place they shot rear projection, I think: there's this great scene in the drug store -- City Hall prominent in the bg, almost tooo prominent, if you ask me -- look at the way the painted line ends. Looks a little off, don't it?

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  #1370  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
The Dragon's Den was a very interesting place.
The restaurant was located in the basement of the F. Suie One Company.
It was a favorite haunt of Walt Disney and the Marx Bros.
And it's brick walls were festooned with exotic murals. (I wish I had a good photo of the interior).

Below: This photo is dated 1949. The Dragon's Den was established in 1935.


calisphere

Below: Here's a good view of the rest of the street. Notice Jerry's Joynt (see my post# 1350) towards the end of the block.


calisphere


I love the white building that is built out over the sidewalk.
If I remember correctly, underneath all the add-ons was one of the original adobes of 'Sonora Town'.
Of course all the Victoriana -- and an original adobe -- were wiped away like so much egesta. And someplace the Marx Brothers used to go, yet! There must have been gambling...Chico didn't go anywhere there wasn't gambling.

I dig exotic murals. Will hunt around my stuff to see if they're pictured anywhere...
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  #1371  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 1:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsjansen View Post

Finchley's single double hung window has always gotten me riled. the sunshine nor the hillcrest definitely never had a dogleg section that would have afforded the view out Finchley's window. Only the astoria could have provided the view looking due east at the back of the belmont. and there is a small dogleg section, just below the tower of the astoria that would provide the view

Also, the view out Finchley's window is remarkably similar to this shot from The indestructible man, taken behind the astoria.

Little did they realize sixty-one years ago that a) we'd have the internet on our giant ENIACS or b) there'd be a post devoted to "Finchley's Window."

Now that I'm sold on the concept of rear projection for the Sunshine, I'm wondering if that isn't the case here too.



The only Astoria window they could have shot from would have been from that backside of the first dogleg. For reasons I go into below, I say, no.

My theory is that they took their camera -- probably some giant Mitchell BNC or whatever -- and shot the "out-the-window shot" from the top of the stairs, the stairs at Olive between the Astoria and the Hillcrest (as seen in Indestructible Man).

I mean, look how far down the bay windows go on the Astoria (here, in a shot post-'61 demo of its onetime neighbor, the Hillcrest):


Hylen-Cal State Library

Now, here's a shot (below) of the bottom of the bays. Take a look at the height of the back of the Belmont. Compare to the Finchley window shot above.


LAPL

This then is a shot taken on the stairs, I'm saying. Roughly comparable. Even the roof height of the Sunshine matches up.

Some Indestructible Man shots taken at the top of the stairs:





-- so compare these shots to Finchley's window. The back end of the Belmont tops out in between the Astoria's first and second bays from the bottom -- in his window and in the images shot from the top of the stairs. And to have captured the full unobstructed stairwells at the back of the Belmont, you would have had to have been standing at the top of the stairs -- a window in the dogleg would have had more of the side of the Astoria and looked less like looking down the stairs.

So, here's what I believe: from Finchley's window you're seeing the bottom of the back dogleg, here:



Which is lower than the shots from Indestructible Man, because they shot it from the landing just around the back (where, I believe, that shot from the LAPL [above] came from). Of course, the shots from IM were pretty high up -- look how they tower over the cop car.

The landing around the back, at the base of the first dogleg (I'd say it was shot through this window, but this window is too wide and squat to be Finchley's tall slender double-hung):



Ok. That's my theory.
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  #1372  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 2:02 AM
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LAPL
Pickfair, post-Phillips, pre-final Wallace Neff makeover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsjansen View Post
... on second thought, i'm going to have to say that the googlemaps photo is of a different building that was inspired by the house built in Berkeley Square. There are quite a few details that are different between the two structures.
While it might be another Corbett concrete design for the Robertses, I definitely don't think that the 21st St. house is the same one in the photo you posted--thank you for doing that, btw. I think the Robertses sold their Berkeley Square house early, as I said. I've found a good deal of information on all of the families, in periodicals, club records, various "who's who" types of books, even records of my own college fraternity, and there is a lot of conflicting detail, especially when it comes to addresses. C. Wesley Roberts was apparently the Wesley Roberts of a sizable and eponymous L. A. construction firm in the "oughts"--perhaps he commissioned the house from Corbett and then his son J. Wesley moved in, before moving on to 21st St. It would require alot of research using, for example, telephone books for every year of the lifespan of Berkeley Square to track all the occupants--this wouldn't really be that hard if one lived in L.A. and was even more obsessive than myself. But even then there would be conflicting information. One item that caught my eye in my pokings around was that attorney Lee Phillips of #4 (lots 28, 29, 30) was the original builder of Pickfair, eventually selling it to Doug and Mary. According to his great-granddaughter, it was not a hunting lodge, as is widely written. (So if Mr. Phillips lived on Berkeley Square and this wasn't a hunting lodge...what exactly was Mr. Phillips up to in the Hills of Beverly while the Mrs. had all her parties, including her annual doll auction for Children's Hospital?) Anyway, Doug and Mary remodeled the house several times, including at least once employing the great Wallace Neff, and it took the very talented and tasteful Miss Pia Zadora to destroy it. Thank you, Pia.

Last edited by GaylordWilshire; Sep 18, 2012 at 1:06 AM.
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  #1373  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 1:28 PM
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Another aerial showing the beaudry house

In this 1928 civic center aerial, the beaudry house (which i circled), is quite visible


LAPL
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  #1374  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 1:51 PM
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Civic Center Street grid Re-Alignment

I went searching through past posts, and i do not think that these were previously posted.

1924 civic center proposal. I wonder if this proposal is what got Christine Sterling motivated to save and renovate Olvera street. If you look north of the plaza in the plan, Olvera Street..........not so much


LAPL


1929 aerial photo with proposed street grid overlay. (Beaudry's house is still hanging on)


LAPL


Approved 1927 Street grid overlay-ed on top of existing street layout


LAPL


Street grid overlay plan showing public and privately owned land that falls within the proposed street grid. Black represents privately owned


LAPL


Street grid overlay plan that shows privately and publicly owned land that falls within the new blocks created by the new street grid. Once again, black represents privately owned.


LAPL


Post spring street extension map shows land owned by the City. I particularly like this map as it clearly shows the hill street and broadway tunnels.


LAPL


Post spring street extension overlay grid map


LAPL


Pre-Union Station chinatown street map


LAPL
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  #1375  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 3:31 PM
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^^^Those illustrations are great gsjansen. I haven't seen them before.


Below: Old Chinatown lost to Union Station.



gsjansen/LAPL

This is very interesting. The long lost forgotten streets and buildings of old Chinatown.




I thought I'd repost this view of old Chinatown from City Hall in 1931.
It's interesting to compare with the diagram above.


usc digital archive



Below: The area lost.



usc digital archive
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  #1376  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 5:08 PM
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Wow, all these great pics and anecdotes to go with them yet again!


Quote:
Originally Posted by GaylordWilshire View Post
LAPL
Pickfair, post-Phillips, pre-final Wallace Neff makeover.



While it might be another Corbett concrete design for the Robertses, I definitely don't think that the 21st St. house is the same one in the photo you posted--thank you for doing that, btw. I think the Robertses sold their Berkeley Square house early, as I said. I've found a good deal of information on all of the families, in periodicals, club records, various "who's who" types of books, even records of my own college fraternity, and there is a lot of conflicting detail, especially when it comes to addresses. C. Wesley Roberts was apparently the Wesley Roberts of a sizable and eponymous L. A. construction firm in the "oughts"--perhaps he commissioned the house from Corbett and then his son J. Wesley moved in, before moving on to 21st St. It would require alot of research using, for example, telephone books for every year of the lifespan of Berkeley Square to track all the occupants--this wouldn't really be that hard if one lived in L.A. and was even more obsessive than myself. But even then there would be conflicting information. One item that caught my eye in my pokings around was that attorney Lee Phillips of #4 (lots 28, 29, 30) was the original builder of Pickfair, eventually selling it to Doug and Mary. According to his great-granddaughter, it was not a hunting lodge, as is widely written. (So if Mr. Phillips lived on Berkeley Square and this wasn't a hunting lodge...what exactly was Mr. Phillips up to in the Hills of Beverly while the Mrs. had all her parties, including her annual doll auction for Children's Hospital?) Anyway, Doug and Mary remodeled the house several times, including at least once employing the great Wallace Neff, and it took the very talented and tasteful Miss Pia Zadora to destroy it. Thank you, Pia.
I remember reading that the press would jokingly refer to "Pickfair" as "Buss-fair" when L.A. Lakers owner Jerry Buss owned it. My understanding is that after Pia Zadora bought the property, it was largely demolished and it's basically a whole different house now.

A few days ago I was trying to look for good old photos of Taylor Yard or the "Cornfield" north of Chinatown, being that it was featured prominently in the 1942 film "This Gun For Hire." It's the only Veronica Lake movie I've seen, and as I recall, a rather dashing 29 year-old Alan Ladd is in it; he plays the bad guy (albeit a protagonist) but in my opinion he was too good-looking to play the bad guy. I think this is the movie that made him a star, having been a relative unknown before. Taylor Yard of course is now the L.A. State Historic Park; the Metro Gold Line runs alongside it, probably the only reminder that it used to have anything to do with trains.

I haven't been able to find any good pics of Taylor Yard, that I like, anyway... so I'll just use this picture of the principal cast members of "This Gun For Hire"...

L-R: Alan Ladd, Veronica Lake, Robert Preston

doctormacro.com

...and this clip from the film. You don't see Taylor Yard until around the 6 minute mark. From there you can see Alan Ladd run across a pedestrian bridge over the train tracks. It was an old picture of the pedestrian bridge over the tracks that I wanted to find somewhere on the internet. If anyone rides the Metro Gold Line south into the Chinatown Station, the scenes from that part of the film should look familiar.
Video Link


Here's a view of the abandoned Taylor Yard from 2000:

LAPL
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Last edited by sopas ej; May 27, 2010 at 6:57 PM.
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  #1377  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 7:09 PM
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Yesterday I went to the observation deck of LA City Hall. Of course I took some pictures. I thought I'd do a then and now.

Looking southwest from the top of LA City Hall, November 12, 1930:

USC Archive

Same view, May 26, 2010:

Photo by me

I think downtown LA looks more interesting in the older photo. It also looks more dense with buildings, even minus today's skyscrapers. It's interesting to me to see what existed on the block that the current LA Times Building now occupies. In the lower right corner of the older photo, you can see the tower of the previous LA Times Building. Back then there weren't as many vacant lots and parking lots like today. There were also some great examples of Victorian architecture still existing in 1930.

I also thought that the foundation of the demolished old State Office Building was interesting; I didn't realize that many of the floor tiles still existed:

Photo by me

State Office Building, 1939

USC Archive

State Office Building under construction, May 1931

USC Archive

I also didn't realize that this building also had underground parking. In this photo I took, you can see the foundation in the lower left corner; there's a driveway leading underneath:


On second thought, could that just be a walkway? Hmm...
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  #1378  
Old Posted May 28, 2010, 12:08 AM
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Pre-Union Station chinatown street map


LAPL
That's an amazing first plan, the 1924 one; think of LA without what little remains around the Plaza...

...now you've got me thinking about Chinatown...the REAL Chinatown...


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  #1379  
Old Posted May 28, 2010, 12:28 AM
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Chinatown Noir

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post

usc digital archive
I really like this image, I mean, not only was that section across Alameda between Macy and Aliso taken out, but pretty much damn near everything else.

I added two dots on either side of the Alley:



That's the Calle de los Negros, AKA Nigger Alley, about which (from Wikipedia) Los Angeles merchant and memoirist Harris Newmark recalled that Calle de los Negros was “as tough a neighborhood, in fact, as could be found anywhere.” Los Angeles historian Morrow Mayo described it as “a dreadful thoroughfare, forty feet wide, running one whole block, filled entirely with saloons, gambling-houses, dance-halls, and cribs. It was crowded night and day with people of many races, male and female, all rushing and crowding along from one joint to another, from bar to bar, from table to table. There was a band in every joint, with harps, guitars, and other stringed instruments predominating.”

It's most famous for being the site of the Chinese Massacre of 1871. Another link with vintage photos of the alley here -- more on the massacre here.

The site of "N-Alley" now? You wouldn't even know:





At least the 1890 Garnier Building facing Los Angeles St. -- what's left of it, half of it got lost to the Santa Ana Fwy ca. 1954 -- is now the Chinese-American Museum, so at least there's that.
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  #1380  
Old Posted May 28, 2010, 4:03 AM
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there is a scene in the move "The Turning Point" with William Holden, and Alexis Smith, (and everybody's favorite cuckold patsy Ralph Bellamy), where William Holden, and a witness who he is interviewing get chased out the back door of a restaurant on Hill Street by hoodlums. They elude their prey by running up the circular fire escape of the Hotel Central, which is located on clay street between 3rd street and 4th street.


California State Library

After reaching the top flight of the fire escape, William Holden then runs down a corridor, and exits out the front door of the Clayton Apartments on to Clay Street which is next door to the Hotel Central.


California State Library


were these two buildings internally connected to each other, or was this just another hollywood cinematic directorial license?
Took me a little while to dig out TTP, but I did, and zounds, for a movie set in the Midwest, it sure has a high LA quotient. Especially lots of Bunker Hill. But I especially liked figuring out the, as you put it, cinematic directorial license, because it's extreeeeeme...

So, first thing he does is run out the back door of the restaurant and up the back fire escape. Which right there makes no earthly sense, since the Hotel Central fire escape went down to into a parking lot, away from any nearby buildings.


Cal State Library

But he goes up the fire escape anyway --



-- and goes through a door...then he's here



...goes down the hall...



...turns the corner...



...and he's on Clay St. Which makes perfect sense, since he's just run up the Hotel Central fire escape from Hill, ran through the Hotel, and -- hey, what's that?



He's gone through a portal in space! Because, of course, the Hotel Central is at 310 Clay, and the and the Belmont is at 251 Hill -- http://www.onbunkerhill.org/HotelBelmont -- so, to be on this side of the Belmont, means he just stepped out of none other than the Vendome at 231 Hill, which stretched from Hill back to Clay.


Cal State Library

Our three players:



Vendome in yellow, right; Belmont (this map being 1922, it's the Union League) in beige; Hotel Central in pink, left.

Good times!

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