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Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > SSP: Local Calgary > General Discussions, Culture, Dining, Sports & Recreation

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  #1  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 3:33 PM
mr.steevo mr.steevo is offline
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SinTax Revenue more than Gas Revenue

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It's a seemingly bottomless well of riches the Alberta government continues to tap to fund its programs.

But instead of extracting it, you plug it, play it and drink it.

Indeed, booze and gambling are producing a windfall of riches for the provincial government at a rate that's suddenly worth more than the individual takes from conventional oil and natural gas.

Combined, the vices are expected to generate about $2 billion in revenue for provincial coffers in the current 2010-11 budget year -- roughly $1.3 billion from gaming and lottery revenue, and nearly $700 million from liquor.

Yet, royalties from conventional natural gas -- for years the province's primary source of energy income -- are now forecast to hit only $1.9 billion this year.

Four years ago, the government reaped $6 billion in natural gas royalties.

The gaming and liquor income is also expected to outstrip estimated conventional crude oil revenue for the year, which is also projected to reach about $1.9 billion.

It was a similar story for the 2009-10 fiscal year and part of an intriguing but potentially alarming trend for the Tory government: Albertans' bad habits are suddenly more valuable than some of the province's geological wealth.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Bo...#ixzz0xowivC30

I'm doing my part to keep this provincial ship afloat.

I hope everyone here is contributing to the Alberta Advantage.

s.
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  #2  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 4:01 PM
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Jay in Cowtown Jay in Cowtown is offline
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Isn't that fucking something!?! Bullshit if you ask me!

One day when I snap in a drunken rage and yank a row of VLT's out of a bar with a chain hooked to my truck... the Alberta Government can pay for my rehab!
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  #3  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 4:27 PM
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To be fair, 4 years ago gas prices were $14/MMBtu and now we are sitting at $3.80. It's not like there has been a huge increase in taxes, just more of a drop in commodity prices. It is still a lot of money from taxes but let's be realistic about what we are comparing it to.

Living and working in a place so heavly tied to changing prices always leads to instability in where we get our money from.

Last edited by GTING; Aug 27, 2010 at 5:04 PM.
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  #4  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 5:32 PM
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The thing I always found funny about liquor tax is why we, as a scoiety, accept it. Drinking isn't illeagal and it's sociall accepted. However, we have taxes 'designed' to curtail drinking, but really are only the result of an era where drinking was a 'sin' or morally wrong, in a very religious society. This isn't the case anymore, but we still accept liquor being taxed at over 500%.

I always wondered if people would be upset if an ice cream cone cost $12.50 because there was $10 in tax on top of it. Would people stand for that as they do for liquor?
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  #5  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 6:07 PM
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Low commodity prices are a double edged sword for provincial revenues.

Not only due they collect less due to lower prices, but there are two components to how crown royalties are calculated (price and quantity component).

When prices go down, the royalty percentage also drops!
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  #6  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 10:01 PM
calgarydude calgarydude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubwayRev View Post
The thing I always found funny about liquor tax is why we, as a scoiety, accept it. Drinking isn't illeagal and it's sociall accepted. However, we have taxes 'designed' to curtail drinking, but really are only the result of an era where drinking was a 'sin' or morally wrong, in a very religious society. This isn't the case anymore, but we still accept liquor being taxed at over 500%.

I always wondered if people would be upset if an ice cream cone cost $12.50 because there was $10 in tax on top of it. Would people stand for that as they do for liquor?
interesting point, but it probably also likely that people are still willing to pay for the liquor at the increased prices. our liquor is more expensive, but people want it. ice cream if it were to be taxed would sell less as there are alternatives to ice cream and people are more willing to do without. that and alchohol impairs judgement so it is a little more understandable, ice cream doesn't quite have the same effect
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  #7  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Sin (well, taxes on non-necessities) taxes are the absolute best kind. They're 100% voluntary. If you don't want to pay them, no one will put you in jail for not. And if people had any heads on their shoulders, they'd be the most progressive taxes possible - only those with extra disposable income would pay them, and in proportion to their excess wealth.

Of course, humans are idiots so it generally works the other way around.
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  #8  
Old Posted: Aug 27, 2010, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Sin (well, taxes on non-necessities) taxes are the absolute best kind. They're 100% voluntary. If you don't want to pay them, no one will put you in jail for not. And if people had any heads on their shoulders, they'd be the most progressive taxes possible - only those with extra disposable income would pay them, and in proportion to their excess wealth.

Of course, humans are idiots so it generally works the other way around.
So true, another aspect is if you look at the homeless shelters around East Village are havens for alcoholics who abuse the homeless shelters, and then collect bottles during the day, and then use 'disposable income' on buying booze instead of saving up for a rental downpayment or on day to day needs like food. The sin tax on alcohol and cigarettes in these areas should be so high that they reflect the very costly financial burden of operating the homeless shelters.

FYI: costs are stated between $40,000 to $100,000 per user of these centres, and the majority of funding coming from the Government of Alberta.

Last edited by Radley77; Aug 27, 2010 at 11:17 PM.
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  #9  
Old Posted: Aug 29, 2010, 11:13 PM
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Ramsayfarian Ramsayfarian is online now
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Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
So true, another aspect is if you look at the homeless shelters around East Village are havens for alcoholics who abuse the homeless shelters, and then collect bottles during the day, and then use 'disposable income' on buying booze instead of saving up for a rental downpayment or on day to day needs like food. The sin tax on alcohol and cigarettes in these areas should be so high that they reflect the very costly financial burden of operating the homeless shelters.

FYI: costs are stated between $40,000 to $100,000 per user of these centres, and the majority of funding coming from the Government of Alberta.
The homeless shelters are also utilized by the working homeless. While a large percentage do have substance abuse problems, not every resident does. Plus the facilities won't let them in if they're under the influence.

Increasing the sin tax in certain areas would only penalize the businesses in those areas.

Sort of off topic, but The Star had a good article this weekend on what happens when you give panhandlers pre-paid credit cards.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...dit-cards?bn=1
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  #10  
Old Posted: Aug 29, 2010, 11:38 PM
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Sorry I did not read the whole article but does it discuss the sin tax [2] rate for each vice and break them down as a % age of say tax on beer or liquor? I wonder the differences of them between USA state rates....If they were similar imagine the income from states like CA, NY, NV ect....



I don't know but the billions in revenue from a relatively small populous providence from these common vices seems more than productive and it appears to be a very regressive tax [1] at that.


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_tax

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_tax
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  #11  
Old Posted: Aug 30, 2010, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian View Post
The homeless shelters are also utilized by the working homeless. While a large percentage do have substance abuse problems, not every resident does. Plus the facilities won't let them in if they're under the influence.

Increasing the sin tax in certain areas would only penalize the businesses in those areas.

Sort of off topic, but The Star had a good article this weekend on what happens when you give panhandlers pre-paid credit cards.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...dit-cards?bn=1
My understanding is the Drop-In Centre allows clients that are under the influence:

"From Drop-In Website: Emergency Beds are accessed on a first come first served basis daily beginning at 5:00p. Clients can be served on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Floors. The 1st Floor serves men and women who are intoxicated or under the influence. The 2nd Floor serves men who are intoxicated or under the influence. The 3rd Floor serves sober men and women."

I guess, I would hope that there are policies in place that makes sure that the status quo system doesn't enable addiction lifestyle (i.e.: stay at homeless shelter, panhandle during day, get drunk in evening, go back to shelter) on the taxpayer dollar.

Interesting article about what happens when you provide panhandlers free credit cards. I recognize some homeless people don't have addictions.

One of the other things that I thought would be an interesting pilot would be to provide either free public transit, or cheap used cars (which may be more cost-effective than homeless shelter). Since mobility and income are often related to each other, I often wonder if providing better mobility options would help to improve access to better jobs and a wider selection of affordable housing options. I suppose another way to help the homeless would be to get a gift card for Safeway as most locations don't have a liquor sections.
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  #12  
Old Posted: Aug 30, 2010, 4:34 AM
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That credit card story should be force-fed to everyone who has a paying job and leaves it for no good reason beyond "eh, I just don't feel like working", "meh, something will come along my way, I don't need the hassle", or any of a thousand reasons I've seen people go from gainfully employed to near homeless. It really shows that yes, homelessness CAN happen to "regular" folks, and it doesn't take much. Just a few bad decisions and/or a streak of bad luck.

People who walk away from the good life for stupid reasons are idiots. I bet most of the folks in this story would be very happy to stick with a shitty call centre job, or flipping burgers, or a thousand other things that so many of us take for granted and just give up on because we think it's beneath us.
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  #13  
Old Posted: Aug 30, 2010, 10:54 AM
MarkL MarkL is offline
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Hai Guyz

I work at a homeless shelter, and have for years. The Drop-in Centre also accepts not-sober people on the third floor. Also, Alpha House accepts heavily intoxicated individuals. FYI.

The credit card story is pretty typical of these kinds of stories. I like the fact that they are personalizing things and pointing out the fact that people on the streets are not some homogeneous mass of addicts. Recognizing the breadth of issues that people on the streets face is key for dealing with those issues. There is no one size fits all approach.

However, what made me laugh about that story is the fact the drug dealers do not take credit cards, prepaid or not.

Our own figures put the rate of addiction at around 75-80%, however stats are very difficult in this area, since both measurement and classification are problematic. Is someone with a history of crack addiction that's been clean for 5 years an addict? Do they become an addict again when they relapse? When do they stop being an addict? Guys who I know smoke crack every day that deny it up and down, do they get recorded as addicts or not? How about that person with a legitimate Oxycontin prescription whose prescription never lasts until renewal. Then there are the street homeless that never use the system at all, and never get measured for anything. It's very difficult to get accurate numbers.

Yes there are a very large number of homeless who have all their essential needs paid for by the taxpayer, who work the bare minimum to pay for their addictions, and do this for year upon year. This is a fact.

What's the alternative though? A few might work a wee bit harder and share a rental with 6 friends. A few might get off the street entirely. Most would just live on the street, in your building's foyer, under bridges, on your porch, etc. There would be significantly more people dying on the streets every winter. This is also a fact.

Ok, too much wall of text, I'll stop now.
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  #14  
Old Posted: Aug 30, 2010, 1:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
My understanding is the Drop-In Centre allows clients that are under the influence:

"From Drop-In Website: Emergency Beds are accessed on a first come first served basis daily beginning at 5:00p. Clients can be served on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Floors. The 1st Floor serves men and women who are intoxicated or under the influence. The 2nd Floor serves men who are intoxicated or under the influence. The 3rd Floor serves sober men and women."

I guess, I would hope that there are policies in place that makes sure that the status quo system doesn't enable addiction lifestyle (i.e.: stay at homeless shelter, panhandle during day, get drunk in evening, go back to shelter) on the taxpayer dollar.

Interesting article about what happens when you provide panhandlers free credit cards. I recognize some homeless people don't have addictions.

One of the other things that I thought would be an interesting pilot would be to provide either free public transit, or cheap used cars (which may be more cost-effective than homeless shelter). Since mobility and income are often related to each other, I often wonder if providing better mobility options would help to improve access to better jobs and a wider selection of affordable housing options. I suppose another way to help the homeless would be to get a gift card for Safeway as most locations don't have a liquor sections.

I stand corrected on not accepting wasted peoples. Those floors must be a ton of fun every evening.
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  #15  
Old Posted: Aug 30, 2010, 2:37 PM
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When do they stop being an addict?
One of the very few things AA gets right is that you never stop being an addict.

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What's the alternative though? A few might work a wee bit harder and share a rental with 6 friends. A few might get off the street entirely. Most would just live on the street, in your building's foyer, under bridges, on your porch, etc. There would be significantly more people dying on the streets every winter. This is also a fact.
Bingo. Plus, they'd be committing a lot more crime. I'm happy enough to pay a tiny fraction of my income (and it really is tiny compared to the overall government trough) to help keep society safer and nicer overall.

About the only alternative I can think of is work camps (ie: making it "illegal" to be homeless), but for whatever reason we value freedom in our society, including the freedom to fail at life.
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  #16  
Old Posted: Aug 30, 2010, 3:48 PM
mr.steevo mr.steevo is offline
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I work at a homeless shelter, and have for years.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for your perspective. I am wondering if you have a ball park figure for clients with a mental illness who are receiving services from your shelter.

freeweed questions why someone with a decent job would leave it with no plan for the future. I would argue that it is difficult to make a rational decision if mental illness is an issue. Whether it is depression sapping your will to get out of bed, mania convincing you to party for 5 days without sleep or consequences, or psychosis dropping thoughts into your head that aren't real, mental illness of many forms can easily result in homelessness. Without a supportive family it can happen that much sooner. Add an addiction or two and a physical disability and the hole gets even more difficult to dig yourself out of.

s.
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  #17  
Old Posted: Aug 30, 2010, 3:52 PM
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Yeah, I hoping to imply that severe mental illness would be a mitigating factor. Or a physical disability - obviously those things aren't in a person's control.

I'm more talking of the huge number of people who have nothing wrong with them. They "just don't feel like working" because Warcraft is more fun. Or they hate getting up in the morning because they're "just making the boss richer".

It's people that throw away opportunities that I have no sympathy for. Not people who really have no choice in the matter. We need to educate the former, and make them learn from their mistakes. We need to help the latter, because we're decent as human beings.
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  #18  
Old Posted: Sep 1, 2010, 7:54 AM
MarkL MarkL is offline
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Hi,
About 30% of our clients have severe (non addiction) mental health issues, such as Schizophrenia.
Mark
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  #19  
Old Posted: Sep 1, 2010, 10:44 PM
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Hiya Mark, thanks for your insight from working at the homeless shelters.
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