The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 58

Wharn · #**1141** Posted: **Feb 29, 2012, 4:49 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F

Who pissed in your corn flakes this morning? That was a general statement, nothing to do with Toronto specifically. The idea that LRT is slow is just weird.

I pissed in my corn flakes, actually. It gives them a very tangy and unique flavour. But never mind that, it is not important. That comment was intended to be a half-joke: every time LRT vs. Grade-Separated is mentioned, a gigantic battle that would rival Thermopylae ensues.

I've already mentioned where I stand on Streetcars vs. LRT, so I'm not even going to get involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dleung

I gotta say, Portland has some pretty nice freeways:

You know what? This could have been the Spadina Expressway. It is actually very pleasing to the eye, looks a whole lot better than the Decarie.

MonkeyRonin · #**1142** Posted: **Feb 29, 2012, 5:41 AM**

As nice as that might make the freeway look, it sure as hell doesn't make it any better of a replacement for complete, consistent, neighbourhoods full of this:

Photo by me

whiteford · #**1143** Posted: **Feb 29, 2012, 5:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Calgary and Edmonton's LRT systems are fast because even the at-grade sections have full priority, with crossing arms, and with fencing or concrete walls separating the tracks from traffic.
In Calgary and Edmonton's case, many of the at-grade middle of the street running sections, also have wide gravel sections between the tracks and the wall or fence separating traffic lanes from the tracks. Basically more like a rapid transit line running down the middle of a highway.

This is totally different than Portland's Interstate MAX or the Transit City LRT lines for Toronto, where the tracks are much closer to the street traffic, and where no walls or fencing is used to separate traffic, meaning trains must only travel the speed of the local traffic, which is slow.

yah.. its not like they have to stop at lights or crosswalks. that would be absurd. all traffic makes way for the Ctrain. and it only stops or slows down at the very places where it is supose to stop or slowdown. other than that its just,,,woosh... its fast and fine. it never stops other than its pre ordained stops, trust me.

Robertpuant · #**1144** Posted: **Feb 29, 2012, 5:43 AM**

Why would any type of government spend money on gardening flowers on the edge of an expressway?

Rusty van Reddick · #**1145** Posted: **Feb 29, 2012, 6:04 AM**

There's nothing really that nice or remarkable about Portland's expressways. Portland is beautiful and so the setting for its expressways is sometimes beautiful but there's nothing about, say, the Banfield that's "beautiful." It's a soul-destroying stretch of asphalt, no different from interstates in any city. With pretty hills to the sides.

dleung · #**1146** Posted: **Feb 29, 2012, 6:13 AM**

^^Well the "setting" in the above picture is a completely man-made trench.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Those remind me of the expressways in singapore. Mainly in a trench and pretty green along the sides.

Unlike Portland, the below image is nowhere near downtown and is the norm in Singapore. Wish our highways were like this too. Increasing density will eventually determine that buffering freeways with hydro corridors and dead space isn't the best use of land... we should build around our freeways instead of away from them.

armorand93 · #**1147** Posted: **Feb 29, 2012, 7:48 AM**

Winnipeg Transit 800series D40s (1989-1991): Only three left in the fleet!

1331Massi · #**1148** Posted: **Mar 2, 2012, 12:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wharn

looks a whole lot better than the Decarie.

Anything looks better than Decarie, except the Gardiner expressway. It is built out of concrete so it could easily be turned into a river during heavy rain, which our handicapped sewer system can't handle. I'm hoping that they cover it like the 720, so high-density buildings can be built, as well as a linear park.

1331Massi · #**1149** Posted: **Mar 3, 2012, 2:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wharn

Christ almighty Jesus, here we go again.

Brace yerselves, lads. The Great Toronto LRT debate is about to return.

Thanks for the warning, but I think the debate has now spread all over the country, with Montréal and Toronto supposed to have LRT soon. God save us from this waste of 20 pages of a forum (go back and check f you like, I'm pretty sure it's 20 pages long).

sober2ndthought · #**1150** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 2:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1331Massi

Thanks for the warning, but I think the debate has now spread all over the country, with Montréal and Toronto supposed to have LRT soon. God save us from this waste of 20 pages of a forum (go back and check f you like, I'm pretty sure it's 20 pages long).

Its gotten ridiculous now. Even in Edmonton they are saying the planned West and SE LRT lines are "streetcars" simply because they are using low-floor LRVs as opposed to high-floor LRVs.

1331Massi · #**1151** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 2:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

Its gotten ridiculous now. Even in Edmonton they are saying the planned West and SE LRT lines are "streetcars" simply because they are using low-floor LRVs as opposed to high-floor LRVs.

Any train that runs at-grade is considered a streetcar. Why? Because people like to complain. It's not fast enough, so let's not go use it because we're douches. It's a very entertaining hobby.

yaletown_fella · #**1152** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 3:53 PM**

I've never been clear as to whether the proposed Eglinton LRT will be as fast as the Bloor HRT? I understand it will be 1/2 the capacity of the Bloor line which is a very reasonable compromise imo.

I hope it won't be like the disaster that is the Spadina streetcar. I don't get how people stand in line for 20 minutes waiting for that horrible thing.

sober2ndthought · #**1153** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 4:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

I've never been clear as to whether the proposed Eglinton LRT will be as fast as the Bloor HRT? I understand it will be 1/2 the capacity of the Bloor line which is a very reasonable compromise imo.

I hope it won't be like the disaster that is the Spadina streetcar. I don't get how people stand in line for 20 minutes waiting for that horrible thing.

It won't be as fast as the Bloor HRT, it will have an average speed between 24-25 KM/H on the surface section and 30-35 KM/H in the underground sections. The main reason for this that there will be a much shorter stop spacing (500 meters) in the above ground sections than it would in the underground sections (1 km).

Eglinton will be nothing like St. Clair. St. Clair is not rapid transit by any stretch of the imagination, it is just a Streetcar line on its own Right of Way. The stop spacing is too narrow to be true LRT. The technology is dated (trolley poles as opposed to pantographs), accordingly speeds are much slower lacks signal priority.

Eglinton on the other hand meets the rapid transit standard. Only the Queensway Streetcar comes close to true LRT on Toronto's existing streetcar system. It still has two problems, dated technology and lack of true signal priority.

• Video Link

As for waiting 20 minutes, if the city installs proper signal controls (not street lights but rather rail signals), you should get a very reliable system. The signal controls will prevent the bunching problems from which which the St. Clair ROW suffers which causes that 20 minute delay.

sober2ndthought · #**1154** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 4:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1331Massi

Any train that runs at-grade is considered a streetcar. Why? Because people like to complain. It's not fast enough, so let's not go use it because we're douches. It's a very entertaining hobby.

Good point.

You know what's amusing, every time I have come back to Ontario from Calgary and taken the subway in Toronto I honestly came to the conclusion it is much slower than the LRT in Calgary. The same trip which would take me 15-20 minutes in Calgary took a good 25-30 in Toronto.

Probably a product of the much longer stop spacing on Calgary's LRT (1-2 km) but none the less it does show Subway is not always faster.

For the record, my favourite quote opposing LRT: LRT isn't designed for Toronto Winters.

Because it never snows in Calgary.

White Pine · #**1155** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 5:14 PM**

I also thought it strange that people were worried what would happen to urban gondolas in the event of snow. It can't be that different than ski hill gondolas...

Question: does LRT stop at traffic lights?

whiteford · #**1156** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 6:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robertpuant

Why would any type of government spend money on gardening flowers on the edge of an expressway?

Calgary has lots of that type of greenery along its expressways. it looks much better than ugly brown dead grass that's for sure. i am glad they spend a little more to make it appealing to the eyes. only in areas where is calls for such a thing though. such as the overpass near the zoo on memorial drive. it is fitting that they did the extra work by making it look nice with the shrubs and grasses that beautify the interchange. nice indeed and well worth the effort

.

miketoronto · #**1157** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 6:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

Its gotten ridiculous now. Even in Edmonton they are saying the planned West and SE LRT lines are "streetcars" simply because they are using low-floor LRVs as opposed to high-floor LRVs.

I have heard the same thing, and there are concerns that need to be addressed about these extensions.

I say this because even the City of Edmonton is saying things about these lines not being about getting people where they need to go fast, but rather to build transit friendly streets, etc.

If they screw this up and make it a slow streetcar style service, then Edmonton's LRT reputation will be hurt and the ridership will not come.

My best advice is Edmonton and Calgary keep building LRT the way they have, just with maybe more pleasant designs for the sections that do run in the middle of the roads.

But if they are going to start making these lines like the ones in Portland (Interstate Max) and Seattle (the street running section), then don't even waste the money on building LRT.

sober2ndthought · #**1158** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 7:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Pine

I also thought it strange that people were worried what would happen to urban gondolas in the event of snow. It can't be that different than ski hill gondolas...

Question: does LRT stop at traffic lights?

Depends, in the case of Edmonton no it never does. However, in the case of Calgary it does but only in the downtown core, outside the downtown core it does not. In downtown the street lights have been modified so that the LRTs all move in unison.

The usually rule of thumb in North America is if the LRT is in the suburbs then it has total signal priority. However if it is in the downtown core then it only has total priority only if it is grade separated.

In the case of Eglinton it is not too clear what will happen at traffic lights, but it appears that it will use some kind of traffic signal preemption, which will prioritize traffic in the direction of the LRT is travelling.

sober2ndthought · #**1159** Posted: **Mar 5, 2012, 7:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto

If they screw this up and make it a slow streetcar style service, then Edmonton's LRT reputation will be hurt and the ridership will not come.

My best advice is Edmonton and Calgary keep building LRT the way they have, just with maybe more pleasant designs for the sections that do run in the middle of the roads.

No its the usual we want a Subway Crowd coming out, they come out every time the LRT is extended.

See the following. Also. As well. Finally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miketoronto

But if they are going to start making these lines like the ones in Portland (Interstate Max) and Seattle (the street running section), then don't even waste the money on building LRT.

Mike, how is this slow:

• Video Link

Also maybe the ridership numbers are so low in because of the frequency.

Calgary's LRT Frequency: One Train Every 3 Minutes (Peak), 10 minutes (off-peak)

Seattle LINK: 7.5 minutes (Peak), 10 minutes (off-peak).

miketoronto · #**1160** Posted: **Mar 6, 2012, 1:40 AM**

sober2ndthought

I can tell you those trains are not going as fast as the Edmonton and Calgary LRT's. They can't be going more than the speed limit, as there are no barriers between the trains and cars, or signal crossings arms.

If you play the Seattle one next to a Calgary or Edmonton one you will see the difference.