HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum.

Since 1999, SkyscraperPage.com's forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web.  The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics.  SkyscraperPage.com also features unique skyscraper diagrams, a database of construction activity, and publishes popular skyscraper posters.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Hamilton > Transportation & Infrastructure

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1561  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 11:20 AM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,789
The businesses have legitimate concerns over how the bus-only lanes will impact their business. The city should be using concrete evidence to show how it will not have a negative impact. Using an apples/oranges comparison between downtown Hamilton and Ottawa's Byward Market isn't very helpful in that regard.
__________________
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1562  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 12:17 PM
mattgrande's Avatar
mattgrande mattgrande is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 895
I'm not sure how it would impact their businesses. These lanes are during rush hour only and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you're allowed to park there during rush hour anyway.
__________________
Livin' At The Corner Of Dude And Catastrophe.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1563  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 2:19 PM
flar's Avatar
flar flar is online now
..........
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa-Gatineau
Posts: 10,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
The businesses have legitimate concerns over how the bus-only lanes will impact their business. The city should be using concrete evidence to show how it will not have a negative impact. Using an apples/oranges comparison between downtown Hamilton and Ottawa's Byward Market isn't very helpful in that regard.
The example doesn't have to be the Byward Market, it could be any commercial district in any city. I can't think of any city where it's as easy to drive in and park as Hamilton. In most cities it's very difficult to drive and park. If parking and free flowing traffic were the critical factors for business success, downtown Hamilton would be thriving. The point being that devoting one lane to buses for a few hours a day is not going to make or break businesses in downtown Hamilton.

I think the onus is on them to explain exactly how this is going to negatively impact their businesses. Seems to me they cry about every little change that's proposed, which is odd because the status quo is not something many would consider success.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1564  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 5:16 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,789
The onus is not on the people affected by the decision, the onus is on the imposer of the decision.

The fact that the business owners 'cry about every little change' is symptomatic of an organization that does not effectively engage those directly affected by the decisions imposed upon them.
__________________
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1565  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 5:47 PM
flar's Avatar
flar flar is online now
..........
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa-Gatineau
Posts: 10,401
It seems like a very parochial attitude to me.


Could you imagine the following comment being made in the Hamilton Spectator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Sun
Asked about the impact the [Convention] Centre will have on traffic, given that the four lanes of Colonel By Drive have been reduced to two lanes from four, Durrell said that's just a byproduct of urban life.
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa.../17899006.html

It's all about the attitude.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1566  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 6:08 PM
ryan_mcgreal's Avatar
ryan_mcgreal ryan_mcgreal is offline
Raising the Hammer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by flar View Post
Seems to me they cry about every little change that's proposed, which is odd because the status quo is not something many would consider success.
Survivorship bias. Globally, business owners are almost never able to envision and accept the benefits of transformative changes to the status quo before they see it with their own eyes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1567  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 7:11 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,789
Dismissing their concerns by labelling it as simply survivorship bias is a further disengagement of the people most affected by the process from the process itself.
__________________
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1568  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 12:09 AM
Jon Dalton's Avatar
Jon Dalton Jon Dalton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 1,512
We're talking about the north side of King between Bay and John. Half of that is Jackson Square. The other half is mostly businesses we don't want anyway. It's also businesses that don't depend on car traffic. Who drives to the downtown Salvation Army thrift store? Right House Tim Horton's? Unicash? National Pizza? 'Any excuse to do nothing' was the call.
__________________
360º of Hamilton
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1569  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 6:29 AM
matt602's Avatar
matt602 matt602 is offline
Hammer'd
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Posts: 3,491
Fair enough. If you really do a breakdown of the businesses on the North side of King from Bay to John, there aren't really any that would be dependent on any sort of car traffic aside from the Sheraton hotel. Every other business either relies on foot traffic on King or has parking facilities behind on King William or adjacent streets.
__________________
"Above all, Hamilton must learn to think like a city, not a suburban hybrid where residents drive everywhere. What makes Hamilton interesting is the fact it's a city. The sprawl that surrounds it, which can be found all over North America, is running out of time."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1570  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 11:35 AM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,789
The primary concern raised by the BIA was not curbside parking, but the impact on loading/unloading zones for the businesses. One would think that the city would have discussed this with the business owners and come up with a plan, but apparently not. This is what I mean by a lack of engagement between those planning the change and those primarily impacted by the change. The pilot sets the tone for the whole project, and if the pilot isn't implemented properly the whole project is in trouble.

For the record, the BIA is not responsible for the delay, public works is. Construction overlaps the initial implementation target date, so the pilot was pushed back to allow construction to be completed. Perhaps the city can take advantage of this delay and engage the business owners in this pilot project in the manner they should have when the pilot was first being drawn up.

By taking an proactive role to address business owners' concerns in the pilot phase, a lot of goodwill will be earned, which in turn will make further BRT/LRT implementation a much smoother process for everyone.
__________________
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1571  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 12:01 PM
ryan_mcgreal's Avatar
ryan_mcgreal ryan_mcgreal is offline
Raising the Hammer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
Dismissing their concerns by labelling it as simply survivorship bias is a further disengagement of the people most affected by the process from the process itself.
The people most affected by the process of a rush-hour bus-only lane along a major transit corridor are the transit users who currently suffer an overburdened system of overstuffed buses that frequently pass bus stops because they can't afford to carry any more passengers.

Business owners will be affected marginally if at all by the loss of one lane during rush-hour on a street with vastly excessive lane capacity, and their concerns are mainly parochial. They should not be allowed to unduly influence the city's reasonable efforts to meet the demand for better transit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1572  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 2:09 PM
CaptainKirk CaptainKirk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 971
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1573  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 3:18 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal View Post
The people most affected by the process of a rush-hour bus-only lane along a major transit corridor are the transit users who currently suffer an overburdened system of overstuffed buses that frequently pass bus stops because they can't afford to carry any more passengers.

Business owners will be affected marginally if at all by the loss of one lane during rush-hour on a street with vastly excessive lane capacity, and their concerns are mainly parochial. They should not be allowed to unduly influence the city's reasonable efforts to meet the demand for better transit.
Bus-only lanes will have at best a marginal impact on the issue of overcrowded buses, so that straw man argument can be tossed aside quite easily.

I am not sure of the motivation for constructing an either/or dynamic here. The business owners are not saying the bus lane cannot be put in, they simply have concerns over how it will impact how their businesses operate and want to know how those concerns will be addressed. This is a valid request no matter how parochial you judge the request to be.

Transit is funded principally through the municipal budget and these business owners are part of the revenue stream that funds the budget, so their input into the process should not be considered undue influence, and it certainly does not deserve to be summarily dismissed by anyone who takes civic engagement seriously.
__________________
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1574  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 3:40 PM
CaptainKirk CaptainKirk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
Bus-only lanes will have at best a marginal impact on the issue of overcrowded buses, so that straw man argument can be tossed aside quite easily.

I am not sure of the motivation for constructing an either/or dynamic here. The business owners are not saying the bus lane cannot be put in, they simply have concerns over how it will impact how their businesses operate and want to know how those concerns will be addressed. This is a valid request no matter how parochial you judge the request to be.

Transit is funded principally through the municipal budget and these business owners are part of the revenue stream that funds the budget, so their input into the process should not be considered undue influence, and it certainly does not deserve to be summarily dismissed by anyone who takes civic engagement seriously.
Holy smokes! Honestly, did you even read his post?

He never said business input is "undue influence" and no where did he dismiss there concerns.

He never said bus lanes will have "impact on the issue of overcrowded buses". He said bus lanes affect more people that use buses during rush hours.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1575  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 4:10 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post
Holy smokes! Honestly, did you even read his post?

He never said business input is "undue influence" and no where did he dismiss there concerns.
Holy smokes, did you even read it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal View Post

Business owners will be affected marginally if at all by the loss of one lane during rush-hour on a street with vastly excessive lane capacity, and their concerns are mainly parochial. They should not be allowed to unduly influence the city's reasonable efforts to meet the demand for better transit.
I will concede the incorrect logic leap on my part vis-a-vis bus lanes' impact on overcrowding, but the dismissal of business owners' concerns is pretty overt.

I highlighted the term "unduly influence" in the paragraph that dismisses their concerns so you don't miss it this time.
__________________
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1576  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 5:23 PM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,451
Hints about goings-on and doings at Metrolinx:

Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence) pointed out several infrastructure projects
for Toronto will be maintained, including the $8.4 billion for transit infrastructure in Toronto, dispelling rumours the province was looking to cut the funding. The majority of the cash will go toward building the Eglinton Crosstown, but council recently voted to use some of that money to build light rail on Finch and Sheppard and replace the Scarborough RT.

Colle made light of the recent LRT-versus-subway debate at city hall.

“I think it’s gondolas they wanna make, flood Eglinton with trenches,” Colle
said to laughter.

However, Wynne indicated there’s nothing left for capital public transit
projects in Toronto at this point.

“We’ve got the $8.4 billion on the table, it’s going to be spent in Toronto,
but going forward, folks, we’re going to have to have a discussion about how
to raise revenue to continue to build transit,” she said, adding provincial
transit planning agency Metrolinx is expected to present an investment
strategy next year.
__________________
"Where architectural imagination is absent, the case is hopeless." - Louis Sullivan
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1577  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2012, 7:55 PM
CaptainKirk CaptainKirk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
I highlighted the term "unduly influence" in the paragraph that dismisses there concerns so you don't miss it this time.
I don't see any dismissal their. I'll give my interpratation of what that sentence says, and then perhaps the poster can further elaborate on their intent if they see fit.

Here's the sentence:

Quote:
Business owners will be affected marginally if at all by the loss of one lane during rush-hour on a street with vastly excessive lane capacity, and their concerns are mainly parochial. They should not be allowed to unduly influence the city's reasonable efforts to meet the demand for better transit.
The way I see it is, that it could be reworded, by removing the red parts which are a double negative of sorts, and therefore cancel each other out, to say:

Quote:
They should be allowed to duly influence the city's reasonable efforts to meet the demand for better transit
Which to my interpretation he is saying that the greater affect should have the greater influence. In other words, any such move towards bus lanes will have a greater and positive effect on the city, overall, by positively affecting the masses that use those buses during rush hour, and that any negative affects on nearby businesses should be lesser.

If, there is some major and drastic affect on business, then of course their influence should proportionally reflect that change.

I see no dismissal of input whatsoever, but rather an attempt to properly weigh any such influence, which to me is completely different and right.

Again, I do not intend to speak for someone else and if the poster would further elabouarte on the intent of their sentence then we can be sure . I am giving my interpretation of what was written.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1578  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 11:06 AM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,789
Wow, this must be what it would feel like to take a lesson at the Martha Graham School of Interpretive Reading.
__________________
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1579  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 1:53 PM
Jon Dalton's Avatar
Jon Dalton Jon Dalton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 1,512
Delivery vehicles interfere with the buses the way it is. If you ever try to catch a GO bus in front of Jackson Square, most of the time it can't pull into the stop because there's a UPS or Fedex truck in the way. So it stops in the 2nd lane from the curb and waiting passengers have to step into the road to make sure they flag it down. Perhaps there could be a designated delivery zone that is separate from the bus stops.
__________________
360º of Hamilton
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1580  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 6:58 PM
SteelTown's Avatar
SteelTown SteelTown is online now
It's Hammer Time
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 16,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
Transit Passenger Information Technology at the MacNab Transit Terminal

The intention of this project is to install large screens, both inside the MacNab Transit Terminal building and in strategic positions along the platform, to provide transit passengers with transit schedule information to facilitate their transit travel planning decisions.

The HSR Technology Planning team is negotiating with their Transit Scheduling software provider to determine the feasibility of integrating the HSR real-time vehicle data information with the existing customer information software. This technology integration will permit the HSR to combine the technical solutions resulting in improved and timely messages to be displayed on the new screens so that transit customers will have the most up-to-date transit information available to them for their travelling decisions and status of the bus they wish to take.

Initially, the information displayed on the screens will be the various bus schedules for the routes utilizing and providing connections at the MacNab Transit Terminal. In subsequent phases of displaying transit information, further details will be provided as additional technology is implemented, i.e. vehicle’s anticipated arrival time and scheduled departure.

This type of transit customer service feature is currently in operation at Union Station for GO Bus and Trains, the VIVA Transit system in the Region of York, the MiWay Transit service in the City of Mississauga and ZUM Transit service in the City of Brampton. HSR staff have plans to complete their negotiations, prepare the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the software and hardware and implement these customer service facilities at the MacNab Transit Terminal by Q2, 2012.
The RFP is out...

The City is seeking a qualified firm to supply, install, test, and commission a turnkey Computer Aided Dispatch and Automatic Vehicle Location (CAD/AVL) System.

The City is carrying out this RFP under its responsibilities for asset management within the specialized transit service structure of the City of Hamilton, but implementation and operation of the proposed CAD/AVL System will, primarily, be carried out by Disabled and Aged Regional Transit System (DARTS).

DARTS expects to derive the following benefits from the CAD/AVL System:

- Improved vehicle utilization

- Elimination of paper schedules

- Reduction in manual data entry

- Real time tracking and monitoring of vehicles based on schedule

- Comprehensive reporting and auditing of schedule performance

- Provide text communication between dispatchers and drivers through a Mobile Data Terminal

- Enhance operations through Mobile Data Terminals, including data entry

- Interface to existing Trapeze Pass demand-response scheduling system

- Transfer schedules/manifests and provide updates to vehicles
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Hamilton > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:43 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.