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Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > SSP: Local Halifax > Business, Politics & the Economy

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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 8:13 PM
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Provincial Govt to invest $300 million into Irving Shipyard

I posted this in the DND shipbuilding contract thread but found it big enough news for its own thread. Here is the article again:

HALIFAX - The Nova Scotia government is making more than $300 million available to Irving Shipbuilding Inc. to help it prepare for the construction of the Royal Canadian Navy's next fleet of vessels.

The government's financial assistance package announced Friday consists of a forgivable capital loan worth up to $260 million and a repayable marine industry loan of $44 million for human resources, technological and industrial development.

rest here: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...145171755.html
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 8:33 PM
scooby074 scooby074 is offline
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Wait... So a company gets a muli-billion dollar contract and we're still giving them handouts?

Knowing irving as I do (worked for them) I wouldnt be at all surprised it much of the sub-contract work goes to NB and Irving subsidiaries. From Toiletpaper to vacuum trucks, they have a company that covers it.

I'll love to see the final numbers at the end of the contract showing how much money went to NB and/or Irving subsidiaries vs NS and/or independent companies.
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby074 View Post
Knowing irving as I do (worked for them) I wouldnt be at all surprised it much of the sub-contract work goes to NB and Irving subsidiaries. From Toiletpaper to vacuum trucks, they have a company that covers it.

I'll love to see the final numbers at the end of the contract showing how much money went to NB and/or Irving subsidiaries vs NS and/or independent companies.
Well Moncton does have an (Irving) toilet paper factory (Majesta/Royale). The last time I checked, there were no TP factories in Nova Scotia. Are you suggesting that all TP orders for the shipyard be outsourced to the States?
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Last edited by MonctonRad; Mar 31, 2012 at 12:25 AM.
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  #4  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby074 View Post
Wait... So a company gets a muli-billion dollar contract and we're still giving them handouts?

Knowing irving as I do (worked for them) I wouldnt be at all surprised it much of the sub-contract work goes to NB and Irving subsidiaries. From Toiletpaper to vacuum trucks, they have a company that covers it.

I'll love to see the final numbers at the end of the contract showing how much money went to NB and/or Irving subsidiaries vs NS and/or independent companies.
I would like to see at least some work go to Saint John.
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  #5  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 11:21 PM
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Maybe NB should cough up some of the 300mil then?
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  #6  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Wishblade View Post
I posted this in the DND shipbuilding contract thread but found it big enough news for its own thread. Here is the article again:

HALIFAX - The Nova Scotia government is making more than $300 million available to Irving Shipbuilding Inc. to help it prepare for the construction of the Royal Canadian Navy's next fleet of vessels.

The government's financial assistance package announced Friday consists of a forgivable capital loan worth up to $260 million and a repayable marine industry loan of $44 million for human resources, technological and industrial development.

rest here: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...145171755.html
Damn communists at it again with their Bolshevik assistance plans for capitalists!
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 11:59 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Here is a map of the current facilities from the Irving website - http://www.irvingshipbuilding.com/ir...-shipyard.aspx





Here are some of the planned facilities from the Ships Start Here website - http://shipsstarthere.ca/momentum/ongoing-investment/




Here is the Bing Maps' Bird's Eye View - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rfb...NS&form=LMLTCC

Last edited by fenwick16; Mar 31, 2012 at 4:18 PM. Reason: added link
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 3:45 AM
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So let me get this straight. The company wins a multibillion dollar contract, 30 billion to be exact. And then the nova Scotia government decides to chip in another 300,000,000 for upgrades to an already existing company that has been turning out huge profits for years and I am sure they will be able to cover the costs of the upgrades themselves with their new $30,000,000,000 contract, but hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm they don't have $20,000,000 to throw the city of Halifax two words a new stadium.

Smells like bull shit to me, fuck the irving's and Darryl Dexter as well.
Now don't get me wrong, I am all for the shipbuilding contract and I'm very proud that it has been awarded to my hometown and I'm sure it will be a huge boost the local economy, but come on you're telling me that they cant afford to move forward with this themselves. I don't buy that for one second.
And then there is Sterile Dexter with yet another boneheaded move it is nothing less than shortsighted and surely for his own benefit down the road. Maybe it's time for Mr. Dexter to take a drive past the grassy knoll or the book depository.

Needless to say I don't agree with this at all
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 11:04 AM
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This is a wild guess, but might it be possible that the provincial money (that was committed a year back) had the purpose of improving the yard's position in the competition for the federal contract? It seems to make little sense otherwise.
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  #10  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ScovaNotian View Post
This is a wild guess, but might it be possible that the provincial money (that was committed a year back) had the purpose of improving the yard's position in the competition for the federal contract? It seems to make little sense otherwise.
This is what they were implying on TV last night. Interesting that the news is only coming out now. I would presume that if BC had known at the time that NS was coughing up $300M for the bid, that they would have been forced to do something similar.
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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ScovaNotian View Post
This is a wild guess, but might it be possible that the provincial money (that was committed a year back) had the purpose of improving the yard's position in the competition for the federal contract? It seems to make little sense otherwise.
But why the hell are we giving a billion dollar company, 300 million to improve their facilities? That should be a cost of doing business.

That 300 million could go a damn long way in this province. Like twinning the TCH ... paying for a new Yarmouth ferry.. paying down the debt.. etc..etc..

Stupid Dexter.
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  #12  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 9:38 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby074 View Post
But why the hell are we giving a billion dollar company, 300 million to improve their facilities? That should be a cost of doing business.

That 300 million could go a damn long way in this province. Like twinning the TCH ... paying for a new Yarmouth ferry.. paying down the debt.. etc..etc..

Stupid Dexter.
For the same reason we keep subsidising any oil companies and large corporations, of which have been experiencing their highest profits in over 60 years, and especially in the United States have been hording vast amounts of money.

Whether its direct transfer payments or tax breaks, neither of which taxpayers can afford, we subsidise big businesses as though they were once again kingships. The politicians are simply the enabling aristocratic 'Lords', supporting a particular CEO whom supports them in return. Since competing countries (such as China) are very willing to go to the extreme with subsidies for big buisnesses from the money saved by not investing in social programmes for lower-income people, it leaves countries such as Canada in a difficult position. Do we further sacrifice our social net and human rights so that we may be graced with jobs from rich, international corporations?

Our business dealings, especially globally, are quite medieval. It's like a game of thrones, with so many poor, cocky fools as fodder.
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  #13  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2012, 11:10 PM
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From what I read off of another article one of the big point gainers for the winning ship builder was that they would not need more federal money beyond what the contract is worth. So the NS government said they will give them the money instead of them asking the federal government.


"One of the categories used to rate bidders for the shipbuilding contract was whether there would be any cost to the federal government beyond the cost of the ships. That category was worth 20 points out of 100 in the rating system.

Irving said the yard needed capital work and the company would be penalized if it asked for federal money."
Taken from - http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...n-shipbuilding


"Irving recalled a meeting with Dexter a year ago when they talked about trying to get the highest possible score in the rating system, meaning not asking for federal cash for upgrades.

“That’s what got us the job,” Irving said as shipyard workers looked on."
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  #14  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 1:50 AM
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Federal...Provincial... Doesnt matter. Irving doesn't need money from ANYBODY.

RyeJay. Well put. I know the reasons.. my question was more a rhetorical "Why".

Frankly it sickens me when NS needs so much to hand over cash to one of the richest families in Canada. I laughed at the comment from one of the Irvings that the shipyard would have been turned to condos if they didnt get the money Irving wanted this contract. They would have went for it with or without government money, but if you can play hardball and get some free government cash, why not, eh?

Even Michelin, over its 45 year history, has only received 1/2 that (not that I necessarily agree) and has probably employed almost as many. Its a huge sum.

Besides badly needed infrastructure, this money could have been used to lure other large employers.. A greater win for NS. I'm scared we have put too much into the "Ships Start Here" basket. We should have used the money to diversify.

SSH wont be Nova Scotia's saving grace. It is a help for sure, but we need more.
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  #15  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 12:31 PM
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Steele should just cancel it in his budget address. "Oops, sorry, we just discovered we can't afford it." Same as the HST increase. Just another broken promise. Think the Irvings would walk?
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  #16  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 1:45 PM
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Shall we list companies, which actually have more experience in shipbuilding, that would laugh at Irving for walking? Aside from the established companies that would jump in and replace an ungrateful Irving -- there are even more companies looking to expand their enterprise and would gladly accept tens of billions of dollars to do so.
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  #17  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby074 View Post
But why the hell are we giving a billion dollar company, 300 million to improve their facilities? That should be a cost of doing business.

That 300 million could go a damn long way in this province. Like twinning the TCH ... paying for a new Yarmouth ferry.. paying down the debt.. etc..etc..

Stupid Dexter.
Please don't forget the education system.
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  #18  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 9:58 PM
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Please don't forget the education system.
Of course not..Especially in light of recent school closings!
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  #19  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2012, 11:30 PM
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Actually the only $300 million I would spend on the education system is on costs associated with blowing it up and rebuilding it in a way so that it actually works. We do not need to throw more money at the existing dysfunctional system.
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  #20  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2012, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by scooby074 View Post
Federal...Provincial... Doesnt matter. Irving doesn't need money from ANYBODY.

RyeJay. Well put. I know the reasons.. my question was more a rhetorical "Why".

Frankly it sickens me when NS needs so much to hand over cash to one of the richest families in Canada. I laughed at the comment from one of the Irvings that the shipyard would have been turned to condos if they didnt get the money Irving wanted this contract. They would have went for it with or without government money, but if you can play hardball and get some free government cash, why not, eh?

Even Michelin, over its 45 year history, has only received 1/2 that (not that I necessarily agree) and has probably employed almost as many. Its a huge sum.

Besides badly needed infrastructure, this money could have been used to lure other large employers.. A greater win for NS. I'm scared we have put too much into the "Ships Start Here" basket. We should have used the money to diversify.

SSH wont be Nova Scotia's saving grace. It is a help for sure, but we need more.
To me this was a no-win situation for Dexter. Had he not agreed to this, and instead the news article this week had come out saying "Shipbuilding Contract Lost Because of Refusal by NDP to back Infrastructure Grants: Irving" I GUARANTEE that there would be tons of posts on this forum about how this shows that Dexter has to go and this just shows what happens when you elect an NDP government.

More than anything, the fact is no matter what party we elect they are all fundamentally the same, because they are driven by the same root need to get re-elected. Hence the reason why the nominally socialist/unionist provincial NDP provides forgivable loans to a corporation (same as the PC and Libs did before them), and the reason why the nominally small- government Conservatives run years of massive program expansion and spending (as have previous Liberal governments in the past). The only people who believe otherwise are party zealots who can rationalize everything away by thinking that whatever their party does is always correct and what the other parties do is always wrong.
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