Broadway Rapid Transit Corridor Discussion | Proposed

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by nname

But really, I doubt the Evergreen Line would create much problem for the busy section during peak hours. There is still the WCE, and it would still be the preferred choice for people to get Downtown or UBC (it would be crazy to take the SkyTrain+99 when WCE+44 can save you more than 30min).

I wouldn't underestimate the power of Evergreen to take passengers away from WCE. It will be cheaper and more frequent. While there will be many who continue to use the WCE, unless the frequency is increased and they add more trains, it won't have the power to stand up to the EG line.

Many transfer once they get downtown to SkyTrain so the prospect of saving $80 / month for more convenience could be a pretty strong one for many.

If you're on a fixed schedule, the case for the WCE are pretty compelling, but I can still see quite a few switching to EG even for trips that go downtown.

[racc]

At 322,000 boardings in 2041, RRT will be a real cash producing machine. In 2010 dollars, that will be around $130 million in ridership revenue. To put this in perspective, this is around 1/3 of TransLink's total ridership revenue for the whole region. The operating costs will likely be around $20 million so that will be a huge net operating profit that can help pay down the capital costs. Account for inflation, by 2014, this operating profit could be in the $200 million per year range. This is probably the best performing transit project being planned in North America.

It is really too bad they focus on just the capital cost and not the total financial picture including operating costs and revenue. Some people just freak out at the high capital cost without looking at the total picture.

In LA, they are all excited about the Westside subway, which is coming in at around $8.7 billion for an increase in 40,000 transit trips in 2035.

It wouldn't surprise me if they looked at the 322,000 boardings in 2041 and beefed up the stations to ensure capacity for future demand which would explain the increase in the capital costs. Extra trains and yard space for the trains to meet the demand could also account for part of the increase in capital cost.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I wouldn't underestimate the power of Evergreen to take passengers away from WCE. It will be cheaper and more frequent. While there will be many who continue to use the WCE, unless the frequency is increased and they add more trains, it won't have the power to stand up to the EG line.

Many transfer once they get downtown to SkyTrain so the prospect of saving $80 / month for more convenience could be a pretty strong one for many.

If you're on a fixed schedule, the case for the WCE are pretty compelling, but I can still see quite a few switching to EG even for trips that go downtown.

The WCE is jam packed, so it's not a problem. I'd also expect many new people from east of the Pitt river would take the WCE to get to the skytrain, so it will even out.

[DKaz]

Where did you get $80 a month? It's $178.75 vs. $161. From Pitt Meadows/Maple Ridge/Port Haney maybe it's $217, but with West Coast Express you get

1. A comfortable ride with a seat, unless you're boarding from Port Moody or even Coquitlam in which case you may have to stand.
2. All cars are air conditioned, unlike the old Mark Is,
3. Washrooms on board,
4. Coffee/snack bar on board,
5. Laptop tables with plugins,
6. It only takes 21 minutes from Port Moody to Waterfront,
7. It's a quiet ride,
8. If you're a social bug, there are many social bugs on the West Coast Express. It's more than a mode of commute, it's a community on the trains. Sometimes you have a group of eight people sitting in two bays just chatting away with each other.

I would expect less than 5% of downtown bound passengers to divert onto the Evergreen Line to complete their trip, but that'll be made up by brand new passengers in Mission to Pitt Meadows who can now ride to say Burnaby or Surrey by train, and also any freed up seats in Port Moody will be greatly welcomed by passengers getting on.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Where did you get $80 a month? It's $178.75 vs. $161. From Pitt Meadows/Maple Ridge/Port Haney maybe it's $217, but with West Coast Express you get

I Calculated with Single day fares:

West Coast Express: $6.75 / trip.
Translink: $5 / trip ($4.20 with faresavers)

$1.75 x 45 trips / month (4.5 weeks): $78.75
$2.55 x 45 trips / month (4.5 weeks): $114.75 (faresavers)

Paid weekly:
WCE: $58 / week
Translink: $42 / week (10 fare savers)

16.00 * 4.5 weeks: $72

Monthly:
WCE: 178.75 ( 28 days)
Translink: $151 ( 1month)

$201.09* - $151 = $50.09
*pro-rated to 4.5 weeks

I'd tend to agree that many will still take the WCE, especially if you're on a predictable schedule... however, not all will.

I think where the WCE's REAL value will lie is that you still get a 3-zone pass one TOP of the monthly (or weekly?) passes. This means that if you want to stay out late after work, you just jump on the train home. It's one heck of a bargain and frankly I'm a little surprised that Translink doesn't charge the transfer as an Add-On.

I'm not sure how many on WCE use weekly or monthly farecards. Anyone have those stats?

[trofirhen]

I think that as densities increase out in the Valley suburbs, past Coquitlam, that the WCE will prove its value, (as would another central Valley train to Abby/Clearbrook)

[crazyjoeda]

They really should expand the WCE to Abbotsford, and have mid day and weekend service.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

They really should expand the WCE to Abbotsford, and have mid day and weekend service.

Agreed on the Abby part at least. It could be a relatively easy extension of service across the river, and likely very well used.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I wouldn't underestimate the power of Evergreen to take passengers away from WCE. It will be cheaper and more frequent. While there will be many who continue to use the WCE, unless the frequency is increased and they add more trains, it won't have the power to stand up to the EG line.

Many transfer once they get downtown to SkyTrain so the prospect of saving $80 / month for more convenience could be a pretty strong one for many.

If you're on a fixed schedule, the case for the WCE are pretty compelling, but I can still see quite a few switching to EG even for trips that go downtown.

I can't see someone living in Port Moody/Coquitlam using Evergreen instead of WCE if they're just doing the AM/PM commute between home and a downtown office (and back). Which is better for most people living there? a one-seat-ride on the WCE with few stops? or changing trains at Broadway/Commercial on a train that makes stops at every station (27 by my count) on the way downtown?

I'd pay the extra $80 per month just to save the transit time (an hour per day?) and for not dealing with the rush-hour crush-crowds switching from Millennium to Expo trains to downtown.

However, if you need to get somewhere from Port Moody/Coquitlam and you've missed the last AM WCE train in to Vancouver, at least the Evergreen will (eventually) get you downtown.

Some people in the NE sector may discover they can take the WCE to Vancouver in the AM for a morning meeting and then return via Evergreen (rather then wait for the first PM WCE train to head back east).

Another advantage of the Evergreen is that it is integrated into the rest of Skytrain so you can get to other places other than Downtown Vancouver.

[cornholio]

Someone I know well lives a short walk from the Port Moody WCE station and works a short walk from the Waterfront station. They cant use the WCE because they often work late and the last WCE train has gone and obviously no one in their right mind with a time intensive good job will be taking a bus for that route. BUT once this Evergreen line will be built they said they would consider using the WCE as they can take the Evergreen line back when they miss the last train.

Having said that I bet they still drive more often then not once they find out it would still be a hour long trip using the Evergreen line but regardless it would at least make transit a more viable alternative. In their case they would contribute positively to the ridership numbers for both WCE AND the Evergreen line.

[nname]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Someone I know well lives a short walk from the Port Moody WCE station and works a short walk from the Waterfront station. They cant use the WCE because they often work late and the last WCE train has gone and obviously no one in their right mind with a time intensive good job will be taking a bus for that route. BUT once this Evergreen line will be built they said they would consider using the WCE as they can take the Evergreen line back when they miss the last train.

Having said that I bet they still drive more often then not once they find out it would still be a hour long trip using the Evergreen line but regardless it would at least make transit a more viable alternative. In their case they would contribute positively to the ridership numbers for both WCE AND the Evergreen line.

Assuming Evergreen line run every 3min peak, 5min mid-day/evening, and whatever late night, as planned.

Waterfront to Commercial is 9min, max wait time 3min
Commercial to Port Moody is 25min, max wait time 5min
Total travel time would be 34min for best case and 42min for worst case.

[Metro-One]

that is pretty amazing for public transit from Port Moody to downtown!

Go Go grade separation! (at least Vancouver has gotten this urban aspect right!)

[racc]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

that is pretty amazing for public transit from Port Moody to downtown!

Go Go grade separation! (at least Vancouver has gotten this urban aspect right!)

Great to have rapid transit!

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by nname

Assuming Evergreen line run every 3min peak, 5min mid-day/evening, and whatever late night, as planned.

Waterfront to Commercial is 9min, max wait time 3min
Commercial to Port Moody is 25min, max wait time 5min
Total travel time would be 34min for best case and 42min for worst case.

You forgot a few points.

A- The max wait time once the WCE wont be running will be longer.
B- The walk from the Expo line to the Millennium line will be nearly 5min.
C- The walk to the station and from the station will add in this case another 20min minimum.

= 59min before even factoring the longer waiting times.

Add to this unreliability, some rain, a stinky homeless guy next to you, no flexibility and the identical cost of travel and it doesnt look so good.

One way or another, door to door it will be a hour+ trip using transit.

I wouldnt use it, and I am taking a course(mostly for fun) at a post secondary school right now which forces me to pay for a Upass, used it a grand total of once in three months and I am a 10 min walk from the skytrain in Vancouver. I value my time, and if it doesnt make sense for me to use transit where I am and for free, I am confident it wont make sense for my friend(but like I said doesnt mean they would never use it, at the least it would give a emergency/viable alternative which doesnt exist now).

[Metro-One]

Watching the "train wreck" unfold in Toronto makes me very appreciative of skytrain and Translink. Sure we complain, but it is a good system.

And for Cornholio, the walking home from the stations and to the station also applies to WCE.

And it has never taken me more than 2 minutes to get from the Expo platform to the M-Line platform (unless I stop for food or coffee). So that 5 minutes would also include the waiting time on the platfrom for the M-Line train to arrive.

I also rarely have stinky homeless guys next to me on the train, and faregates will likely keep many out soon.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Watching the "train wreck" unfold in Toronto makes me very appreciative of skytrain and Translink. Sure we complain, but it is a good system.

And for Cornholio, the walking home from the stations and to the station also applies to WCE.

And it has never taken me more than 2 minutes to get from the Expo platform to the M-Line platform (unless I stop for food or coffee). So that 5 minutes would also include the waiting time on the platfrom for the M-Line train to arrive.

I also rarely have stinky homeless guys next to me on the train, and faregates will likely keep many out soon.

I am all for transit expansion, I have spent a good chunk of my life in cities that have useful transit systems that work(Vancouver will never be able to compete in our life times with these places). But if we can provide a viable alternative for some people and as a result a emergency alternative for the rest then thats great.

The WCE is comfortable, quick and direct with good seating where you can use you laptop, do work, or read a book like a human being.

As far as the fare gates go they are not going to keep anyone out, they dont anywhere else, nor do they eliminate fare evasion. If anything they will slow down travel time and reduce safety on the transit system because they will suck funding for and a reason to have Police and attendants on platforms. Do you honestly think that the drunk homeless guy will walk instead, no he will get through the turnstiles, find a ticket, beg for someone to let him in, steal some change, what ever, one way or another he is getting on. Difference being that instead of making his trip he will likely need to spend more time at the station and harass people, etc the he does now, that and with less human security on the trains eventually will be able to do more of his anti social behavior without fear of getting booted out of the station.
And I have nothing about homeless people by the way, our system now makes those who can pay pay, and those who cant the ability to travel with as little resistance as possible(resistance leads to more crime etc.).

[nname]

Unless your friend go home after 9:30pm, I don't think he'll wait for more than 5 minutes for the Evergreen train. After 9:30pm, I don't see it go over 8min, which is the current headway on the Millennium line until the end of service.

The distance between the very far end of Expo Line platform to the Evergreen platform is only 160m. Using average walking speed of 5km/h for a normal person, this gives a bit under 2 minutes. But seriously, would anyone in their right mind walk across the whole 80m platform at Waterfront to get to the Howe street entrance side to board the first car, only to walk the 80m platform again when transferring train at Broadway?

And the 20min walking time would also have to be included if he takes the WCE. If it is enough to make Evergreen line unattractive for him, it would also make WCE unattractive as it would only be 9-17min faster, wait time (of up to 30min) is not included.

As for the transit police.. The fare gate is not meant to replace them, they'll still be there. In fact, extra polices for the Evergreen Line and other transit expansion is already budgeted in the supplemental plan that was approved last October.

[SpongeG]

the frequency in the evening after rush hour at commercial to get on the m-line is pretty sucky - will it improve with the evergreen line?

the wait can be over 10 minutes between trains on the m-line - usually i will just stay on the train if i was lucky enough to get on the m-line at granville or burrard instead of transferring it just takes too long and doesn't really take much longer for me to get to lougheed

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by nname

Unless your friend go home after 9:30pm, I don't think he'll wait for more than 5 minutes for the Evergreen train. After 9:30pm, I don't see it go over 8min, which is the current headway on the Millennium line until the end of service.

The distance between the very far end of Expo Line platform to the Evergreen platform is only 160m. Using average walking speed of 5km/h for a normal person, this gives a bit under 2 minutes. But seriously, would anyone in their right mind walk across the whole 80m platform at Waterfront to get to the Howe street entrance side to board the first car, only to walk the 80m platform again when transferring train at Broadway?

And the 20min walking time would also have to be included if he takes the WCE. If it is enough to make Evergreen line unattractive for him, it would also make WCE unattractive as it would only be 9-17min faster, wait time (of up to 30min) is not included.

As for the transit police.. The fare gate is not meant to replace them, they'll still be there. In fact, extra polices for the Evergreen Line and other transit expansion is already budgeted in the supplemental plan that was approved last October.

To be able to sit down and do your work during your commute is a big difference maker, you cant do that on a Skytrain and to burn a hour of your time for each one way trip is unacceptable. When you drive it will be faster and you can multitask on the way, such as running errands, shopping, changing destinations and plans, etc. If the door to door trip would be closer to 30min then it would be more feasible for many professionals as the time risk would be reduced.

Anyways my point is that for people such as this, if the Evergreen line can attract them then it wont only be the Evergreen line benefiting but the WCE also. That means that the Evergreen line doesnt cannibalize ridership all the time from the WCE but can often do the opposite.

[nname]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

the frequency in the evening after rush hour at commercial to get on the m-line is pretty sucky - will it improve with the evergreen line?

the wait can be over 10 minutes between trains on the m-line - usually i will just stay on the train if i was lucky enough to get on the m-line at granville or burrard instead of transferring it just takes too long and doesn't really take much longer for me to get to lougheed

They should, since its going to be all 2-car trains when Evergreen opens, so it should be theoretically twice as frequent to keep the same capacity (although it might be less due to the train is quite empty at some times of the day)

Waiting for over 10min might due to a delay or something. The schedule does not seems to have a gap of more than 8 minutes, and yes, SkyTrain do run on a fixed schedule...

Eastbound Millennium Line trains departing Broadway-Commercial after 6pm:

6:02pm	6:07pm	6:13pm	6:19pm	6:24pm	6:30pm
6:35pm	6:41pm	6:46pm	6:52pm	6:58pm	7:04pm
7:10pm	7:16pm	7:22pm	7:28pm	7:34pm	7:40pm
7:46pm	7:52pm	7:58pm	8:04pm	8:10pm	8:16pm
8:22pm	8:28pm	8:34pm	8:40pm	8:46pm	8:52pm
8:58pm	9:04pm	9:10pm	9:16pm	9:24pm	9:30pm
9:38pm	9:46pm	9:54pm	10:02pm	10:10pm	10:18pm
10:26pm	10:34pm	10:42pm	10:50pm	10:58pm	11:06pm
11:14pm	11:22pm	11:30pm	11:38pm	11:46pm	11:54pm
12:02am	12:10am	12:18am	12:26am	12:34am	12:42am
12:50am	12:58am	1:06am	1:14am	1:22am	1:30am