Chicago & Milwaukee discussion

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

You are just being overly argumentative for no reason.

that would be you my friend, not me. the tri-state tollway has a name, it's "the tri-state tollway". i don't know why you were initially denying that it had a name and now are trying to argue that it's not a "real" name. the "tri-state tollway" is as real a name as any other name in the universe.

this is an absolutely, monumentally stupid point to debate, it's completely beyond my comprehension that you won't accept the fact that the name for the tri-state tollway is "the tri-state tollway". it's like trying to argue that the english language doesn't have a word for apples. it does have a word for apples, it's "apples".

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Fort Dearborn was built because the Chicago River did go somewhere while the Milwaukee River goes absolutely nowhere is and is completely unnavigable because it drops rapidly in elevation which led to the construction of many dams and associated industrial uses.

as shawn pointed out, milwaukee had canal plans of their own to connect the menomonee river to the wisconsin. chicago beat milwaukee to the punch and then the railroads blew up, so milwaukee never bothered to follow through with those plans. there were grand canal plans all over the midwest in those early days of white settlement.

that said, chicago has always been larger than milwaukee from their very earliest days. there was never a time in history when milwaukee was a much older, more established, more prominent and much, much larger city than chicago. milwaukee and chicago hit the ground running at right around the same time, historically speaking. if you want to talk about cities in the region that were significantly more established than chicago and milwaukee in the early 19th century, look to detroit and st. louis.

[ardecila]

Just for reference, I and my family also routinely use "The Tri-State" to refer to the beltway around Chicago. There's a bit of inertia: I am accustomed to calling the Addams Tollway the Northwest Tollway, the Veterans Tollway I call 355, and the Reagan Tollway I call 88. This is the Illinois Tollway's fault for not deciding on a consistent name when the roads were built, and then changing them later.

Most of this is based directly on traffic reports; the good folks who report the traffic and ride in choppers get the privilege of determining the common names for major expressways, interchanges, and landmarks that joe-blow Chicagoans will use in conversation. The Junction, the Circle Interchange, Hubbard's Cave, the Hillside Strangler, the Avenues, the Steel Bridge, the Post Office, the Mile-Long Bridge, etc.

This is not consistent either, as I-57 dates back to the earliest days of highway planning but it was never assigned a name.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Just for reference, I and my family also routinely use "The Tri-State" to refer to the beltway around Chicago. There's a bit of inertia: I am accustomed to calling the Addams Tollway the Northwest Tollway, the Veterans Tollway I call 355, and the Reagan Tollway I call 88. This is the Illinois Tollway's fault for not deciding on a consistent name when the roads were built, and then changing them later.

yeah, the tollway did drop the ball by not deciding on names for their expressways when they first built them. the numbers got stuck in peoples' minds and now it will take a generation or two for the new names to stick.

and on the subject of chicago expressways, i love your new avatar. the magikist sign on the kennedy was always a favorite landmark of mine as a child when we would head downtown from the burbs.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

So yes, Milwaukee was the "gateway to the West" up until the canal and railroads came to Chicago as Milwaukee was the only way to get to the West from the East via anything but horse and buggy.

Cup my ear The Rock style to the riotous crowd.

*BOOOOOOOOOOOO*

I don't even see Milwaukee on the map?

*crowd starts throwing peanuts*


http://www.history-map.com/picture/0...oads-Louis.jpg

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

^^^ No, Milwaukee could survive just fine on it's own (it's been around longer than Chicago and was once much much bigger and more important than Chicago).

Naw, I think you are thinking of St. Louis, the elegant matriarch of the midwest.

[Centropolis]

anyway. chicago is always really good about letting us do our little provincial thing. at least until well, this baseball season gets going...

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

I don't even see Milwaukee on the map?

but i do see "chicago". it's very strange that chicago would be included on an old map from the period, but the allegedly older and "much, much larger" city of milwaukee was left off. hmmmmmm...........

in any event, i'm heading over to union station in a few hours to take amtrak up to milwaukee for the weekend and staying with my GF's parents for easter. they live out in the western burbs, but i'm sure we'll find something fun to do in the city on saturday. a great bonus feature of having a girlfriend from milwaukee is that i head up there a lot more frequently these days (6 times in the past 6 months). the downside of course being that her and her entire family are all stupid cheesehead packers fans

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

in any event, i'm heading over to union station in a few hours to take amtrak up to milwaukee for the weekend and staying with my GF's parents for easter. they live out in the western burbs, but i'm sure we'll find something fun to do in the city on saturday. a great bonus feature of having a girlfriend from milwaukee is that i head up there a lot more frequently these days (6 times in the past 6 months). the downside of course being that her and her entire family are all stupid cheesehead packers fans

You should head over to Miller Park and watch the Cardinals slap around the Brewers and ruin their home opener this weekend.

[Mr Downtown]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Milwaukee was the "gateway to the West" up until the canal and railroads came to Chicago as Milwaukee was the only way to get to the West from the East via anything but horse and buggy.

What mode of transportation are you referring to? Milwaukee had no plank roads until 1846, no railroad until 1851, no canal ever. The area around the forks was even swampier than Chicago's site. Wisconsin didn't even become a state until 1848, 30 years after Illinois. Does that sound like a thriving gateway to the Northwest?

Milwaukee population in 1840: 1,712
Chicago population in 1840: 4,470

The Tri-State Tollway has never had any other name:

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

Milwaukee population in 1840: 1,712
Chicago population in 1840: 4,470

don't bother with facts. nowhereman finds them inconvenient and he has roundabouts to explain away any facts that are inconsistent with his version of history.

history is super simple when you just make it up.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

You should head over to Miller Park and watch the Cardinals slap around the Brewers and ruin their home opener this weekend.

i'll be rooting for both teams to somehow lose.

although with this years' cubs team, i don't know if any of it actually matters. i was at yesterday's heart-breaker at wrigley

[lawfin]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but i do see "chicago". it's very strange that chicago would be included on an old map from the period, but the allegedly older and "much, much larger" city of milwaukee was left off. hmmmmmm...........

in any event, i'm heading over to union station in a few hours to take amtrak up to milwaukee for the weekend and staying with my GF's parents for easter. they live out in the western burbs, but i'm sure we'll find something fun to do in the city on saturday. a great bonus feature of having a girlfriend from milwaukee is that i head up there a lot more frequently these days (6 times in the past 6 months). the downside of course being that her and her entire family are all stupid cheesehead packers fans

Then at some point you must try out Sanford restaurant:
http://sanfordrestaurant.com/

It is quite good

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

although with this years' cubs team, i don't know if any of it actually matters. i was at yesterday's heart-breaker at wrigley

Well, we will all be watching the Cardinals home opener (trying to get tickets right now). The Cardinals seem to get weird when we are playing the Cubs, might be interesting. The Cubs of course have a slightly winning record since 1885 when we first met on the field of baseball and we stopped trying to run barges into your bridges.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

since 1885 when we first met on the field of baseball and we stopped trying to run barges into your bridges.

that's right before the time we started shipping all our sewage down to you guys and you decided to bottle it and sell it back to us a "Budweiser".

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that's right before the time we started shipping all our sewage down to you guys and you decided to bottle it and sell it back to us a "Budweiser".

Yeah but you guys are smart enough not to drink it in Chicago. New York is a different story...them and their "Buds"...

[denizen467]

Guys, what was the fuss about. Just compare the original 4-lanes post to the ridiculous obfuscation in the very next post and again in the post after it:

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

I-94 will be 4 lanes from the Sears Tower to the US Bank building in about a year or so.

compared with

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

when I say 94 I mean I-94 after it no longer has a real name, i.e. north of Deerfield.

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

I was NOT talking about the Edens or Kennedy or Edens Spur, but only the segment from the border to Deerfield.

So the Full Of Shit factor was above 100% on this from the outset. In my first post I predicted another "tortured argument" to try to cover up a mistake, and lo and behold, it was delivered.

Rather than revising history, is it so hard to admit a mistake and move on.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

You should head over to Miller Park and watch the Cardinals slap around the Brewers and ruin their home opener this weekend.

Almost seems that matchups like that would be a battle of beer empires more than a battle of pitching and hitting. Are there any fun Bud vs Miller games or funny signs or things in the stands that happen on those days?

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that's right before the time we started shipping all our sewage down to you guys and you decided to bottle it and sell it back to us a "Budweiser".

^ Interestingly, could something like this ever happen in 2012?

If Chicago decided to reverse the river today, shipping its waste down to St Louis, imagine the kind of intercity, or perhaps even interstate law suits that would ensue.

Thank God this was all done in the 19th century!

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by denizen467

Almost seems that matchups like that would be a battle of beer empires more than a battle of pitching and hitting. Are there any fun Bud vs Miller games or funny signs or things in the stands that happen on those days?

Yeah I mean there is always that '82 World Series that was dubbed the "Suds Series" that's always brought up during meetings with Milwaukee, especially last season. When Milwaukee and St. Louis meet, the fans kind of circle each other like alley cats hissing at each other like who are you? We kind of do the same thing with Cincinnati, but it's even worse, it almost never fails to get ugly at some point during the season. Cubs vs Cardinals almost seems good natured in comparison, so long as the Cubs suck, that is...god forbid when they have an OK start to a season.

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Interestingly, could something like this ever happen in 2012?

If Chicago decided to reverse the river today, shipping its waste down to St Louis, imagine the kind of intercity, or perhaps even interstate law suits that would ensue.

Thank God this was all done in the 19th century!

There was an interstate lawsuit that dragged on for decades I think...

It's so diluted by the time it enters the Mississippi it's not a huge deal, you have the Missouri pouring in too and I think we have intakes way over on the Missouri that blends with the Mississippi water. I'd take our water, Zoloft from Chicago and everything, over most shitty municipal tap water in the country. We probably fuck up the water in river the as bad as anyone with our oil refinerys and industrial and ancient infrastructure, so I would be a hypocrite if I complained much about Chicago.

I wouldn't want to drink Illinois River water, though...

[the urban politician]

I like a cold brew and sausage as much as the next guy, but Milwaukee needs to ramp up its downtown shopping & dining options.

Chicago has at least a few suburbs whose downtowns probably have more shopping options than Milwaukee's. I'm not trying to put down the place, for example I love the Third Ward, the Public Market, and Farwell/Brady district, but it needs a whole lot more.

If that ever evolves, I can see great synergies developing with Chicago-Milwaukee, especially with frequent Hiawatha trains running between the cities.

[rgolch]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

I like a cold brew and sausage as much as the next guy, but Milwaukee needs to ramp up its downtown shopping & dining options.

Chicago has at least a few suburbs whose downtowns probably have more shopping options than Milwaukee's. I'm not trying to put down the place, for example I love the Third Ward, the Public Market, and Farwell/Brady district, but it needs a whole lot more.

If that ever evolves, I can see great synergies developing with Chicago-Milwaukee, especially with frequent Hiawatha trains running between the cities.

The main issue is that downtown Milwaukee is just not a major destination for the Milwaukee metro area. I took me a bit to get used to that, having grown up in Chicago.

I will say that the restaurants in Downtown MKE and the east side are much, much better than restaurants in the west, south, and far north suburbs. And the art museum, Aterra by the lake, and now even Bradford beach are interesting, in and of themselves. But you don't have young, vibrant Wisconsinites pining to live "in the city." I find it incredibly disappointing that you have twenty-somethings who think living in Tosa, or Franklin is preferable to living in the city. And I know I'll get someone wanting to respond to me by saying "well, what about the 3rd ward?" And my response is that, the Third Ward is just not a big deal. First, it's small. And second, there really not that much there. I'd like to see something more akin to a small version of Lincoln Park, or Lakeview; the Third Ward is nothing of the sort.

And finally, the shopping. Well TUP.... Milwaukee is NOT a shopping mentality area. I really don't know why; maybe it's German sensibility and frugality. Maybe it's the proximity to Chicago. I'm not sure. I have always found it interesting when I've met wealthy, attractive women, and have discovered that they have never heard of Ferragamo, Christian Louboutin, etc. Maybe that's a good thing. But it does sort of add to a blandness to the whole area.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by rgolch

And finally, the shopping. Well TUP.... Milwaukee is NOT a shopping mentality area. I really don't know why; maybe it's German sensibility and frugality. Maybe it's the proximity to Chicago. I'm not sure. I have always found it interesting when I've met wealthy, attractive women, and have discovered that they have never heard of Ferragamo, Christian Louboutin, etc. Maybe that's a good thing. But it does sort of add to a blandness to the whole area.

^ I'm not sure I entirely agree with this.

There is a decent amount of shopping to be had in Milwaukee area malls, especially Mayfair mall.

The difference is, such shopping is not happening in a main st-style urban venue like you'll see in so many sites in & around Chicagoland.

[rgolch]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ I'm not sure I entirely agree with this.

There is a decent amount of shopping to be had in Milwaukee area malls, especially Mayfair mall.

The difference is, such shopping is not happening in a main st-style urban venue like you'll see in so many sites in & around Chicagoland.

Ok, let me say it again in such a way that I think answers your first comments about lack of good shopping in Milwaukee. What I should have said, is that there is a no real presence of "high end" shopping in Milwaukee. You do have a few nice, high end boutique stores like Faye's, Mark Birman, Harley's, Squire, etc which are mostly in the suburbs. And you have your typical big box retailers in the malls, found in anywhere, USA. But you don't have high end department stores (Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus, Barney's), and you don't have exceptional stand alone stores (Burberry, Prada, Ferragamo, etc). Even if you don't care about clothes, or can't afford to shop in those places, it helps add an upscale atmosphere and aesthetic to a city.