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  #401  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 8:32 PM
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Yeah. Gallery Place is much worse than L'Enfant or Metro Center.
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  #402  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
Fixed it. Semi-seriously though, it's not exactly that it would be too expensive if spec-ing new cars now (recall WMATA spec'd these cars recently in 2008), it's more to do with the additional costs of an assembly line cut-in and retrofit mid-production. It could still happen, though.

Side note, I assume only the prototype car is built in Japan, since final assembly has to be domestic to comply with Buy America?
Well, considering the whole assembly has to be replaced whenever new stations are added or service patterns change, the light-up board seems like the more expensive option in the long run.
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  #403  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2012, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioGuy View Post
Of all the stations I've used on Metro, Gallery Place is by far my least favorite. The terrible T-shaped design
I would guess that the platform is so far west because the tracks curve to the east, towards Judiciary Square station. The other problem is that the Red Line platforms at Gallery Place are narrower than at the other stations, due to the historic buildings on G Street above:
http://planitmetro.com/2011/09/22/ga...tudy-underway/

I'd love to find out why the three big transfer stations both have one set of island platforms and one set of side platforms. Two island platforms would make for simpler vertical movements -- no need to go up+down just to go across, and no need to figure out which side you need. Of course, while I'm shaking my fists at the theoretical Gods of Metro ("why did you do this? why?!"), I'll reiterate that cross-platform transfers would be even better:
http://www.humantransit.org/2009/08/...made-real.html
(although I prefer my photo of Lionel-Groulx: http://www.flickr.com/photos/paytonc/4972106100/)
*Really* good transit systems, like in Hong Kong or Stockholm, will weave the tubes such that *both* transfers on lines N-S and E-W can be done cross-platform, N-W + S-E at one station, and N-E + S-W at the next station.
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  #404  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2012, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by paytonc View Post
I'd love to find out why the three big transfer stations both have one set of island platforms and one set of side platforms. Two island platforms would make for simpler vertical movements -- no need to go up+down just to go across.
I believe it's because of the vertical circulation. Two island platforms would only cross in a small square, and you'd have to cram an elevator, several sets of escalators, and stairs into that square - plus the structure needed to hold the platform and tracks up.
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  #405  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2012, 1:37 PM
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The District Department of Transportation (DDOT) recently posted two streetcar simulation videos of H Street and the Hopscotch bridge. DDOT held a public meeting to discussion the H Street - Benning Road streetcar this past Thursday evening but I wasn't able to attend because of another commitment. My girlfriend, some other friends, and I were on H Street yesterday and I can't wait for the streetcar to begin service next year (hopefully!). The H Street corridor is great and really booming, much like U Street a decade ago, but it is pretty inaccessible unless you drive or live near there (either a mile walk from the Eastern Market metro station or Union Station).

H Street streetcar simulation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sivfJJuYzgo

Hopscotch bridge simulation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL2lTA8LSmU
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  #406  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2012, 1:49 PM
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WMATA announced that it is selling it's chiller site at 42nd and Ellicot Street, located next to the Tenley Safeway).

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/boa...rPlantitem.pdf

"The proposed action meets Metro's goal of using every resource wisely in the disposition of underutilized property to provide enhanced facilities for Metro. The Tenleytown Chiller Plant sits on ¼-acre of Metro-owned land at the intersection of 42nd and Ellicott Streets, NW, Washington, DC, a few feet from Wisconsin Avenue.

The Plant provides air conditioning for the Tenleytown-AU and Friendship Heights Metro stations.

The Plant site is bordered on its other two sides by an aged Safeway supermarket and its surface parking. Safeway has engaged Clark Realty to redevelop the supermarket site. The proposed redevelopment plan is to demolish the existing store and build a new, larger Safeway store and approximately 200 rental units above and alongside, with underground parking. This proposal requires rezoning by the District of Columbia. The broad concept has been tentatively approved by the District’s Office of Planning, pending submittal, review and approval of a formal application..."

This is nothing but great news. This will help WMATA raise revenue at a time when the agency has a budget deficit. More importantly, however, it will help Safeway and Torti Gallas to design a mixed-use store and residential development in a way that will help minimize NIMBY opposition about massing of the project: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...ard-3s-support
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  #407  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 2:48 AM
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Given that the peak flow point on the Metro is the tunnel from Rosslyn to Foggy Bottom (and I believe service already operates at peak signal/power infrastructure capacity in the tunnel), is there a plan for how to handle the increase in peak passenger flow from the westward Silver Line extension?

Are there signal improvements planned for the shared stretch to run tighter headways? Can some of the passenger flow be redirected over the Yellow line bridge? Are all trains on Blue and Orange already 8-cars in the peak, and if not could longer trains allow for widened headways to make room for Silver Line trains? etc.

I recall that in very long term plans the Blue Line would get its own tunnel and serve Georgetown, but such a project is probably at least as expensive as the Silver Line and thus a decade or more off.

I suppose to some extent this issue could be alleviated by continually raising the peak-of-peak surcharge to tamp down on peak demand, but that's hardly the ideal solution.
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  #408  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 3:03 AM
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^^ In June they're starting a new service schedule, Rush +, which involves running 3 inbound blue line trains from Franconia-Springfield as yellow line trains across the yellow line bridge. This frees up some capacity in the river tunnel between Rosslyn & Foggy Bottom to run additional orange line trains. I think they're doing this in part to alleviate some of the crowding on the orange line, but also to prepare for the inclusion of silver line trains late next year when the portion through Tysons Corner is slated to open.

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  #409  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 1:50 PM
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I think more than 3 trains per hour can be routed across the yellow line bridge, so when the silver line is up, they may send more over. But, it would more of a pain in the ass for people trying to get from the blue/yellow line to the vienna-bound orange line or vice versa.
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  #410  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 6:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novawolverine View Post
I think more than 3 trains per hour can be routed across the yellow line bridge, so when the silver line is up, they may send more over. But, it would more of a pain in the ass for people trying to get from the blue/yellow line to the vienna-bound orange line or vice versa.
That would certainly cut back significantly on the convenience of getting from one side of Arlington to the other. It's too bad we're decades away from getting another subway through downtown to run the blue line through.

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  #411  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 6:29 PM
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Even a heavy-rail shuttle between Pentagon and Rosslyn, passing the cemetary, could be an option depending on how bad things get. That would also be a hassle, but better than nothing. I'm pretty sure I've seen that idea floated around in the past, but I was never sure how serious it was.
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  #412  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 8:56 PM
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^^ The problem is Rosslyn, though. It only has two platforms, and if a shuttle needs to occupy those platforms, it takes away room in the schedule for Orange and Silver trains.

I like the long-term idea of running the Silver Line along a new non-stop I-66 alignment between Rosslyn and East Falls Church. It greatly speeds up airport trips while still preserving transfers at each end of the non-stop segment. In the long run, infill stations could be added on the express segment if Arlington ever wants to expand its dense core laterally out from the Orange Line.



The other option is to run a line from East Falls Church down Leesburg Pike or Four Mile Run to connect with the Blue/Orange Lines south of National Airport.
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  #413  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 10:22 PM
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Is the flying junction west of Rosslyn station where Orange/Blue converge a Y junction or are all train movements possible? I.e. could one route trains from Franconia to Vienna?

Given the low peak flow currently contributed by the Blue Line at that point, I'm wondering if such a routing like that above could be run at much lower frequencies to make room in the tunnel for Orange+Silver, while running increased Yellow Line service as a branch split operation west of the river (i.e. make permanent the Rush+ concept).
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  #414  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^^ The problem is Rosslyn, though. It only has two platforms, and if a shuttle needs to occupy those platforms, it takes away room in the schedule for Orange and Silver trains.

I like the long-term idea of running the Silver Line along a new non-stop I-66 alignment between Rosslyn and East Falls Church. It greatly speeds up airport trips while still preserving transfers at each end of the non-stop segment. In the long run, infill stations could be added on the express segment if Arlington ever wants to expand its dense core laterally out from the Orange Line.



The other option is to run a line from East Falls Church down Leesburg Pike or Four Mile Run to connect with the Blue/Orange Lines south of National Airport.

Yea, I'm not sure you could sequence it. A lot of problems could be alleviated with a third track and/or platform between certain stretches at least. Would a new Rosslyn tunnel be intended for only one line to be able to take it?

The main areas for densification in the long-term for Arlington near or around I-66 would be in the areas where the Orange Line already exists, like East Falls Church. Lee Highway and Sprout Run would be the only no-brainer place, but that might be enough. Lee Highway from Rosslyn through Fairfax has numerous places for cluster-style development/mixed-use density.

I think what would be great for Arlington, and Fairfax, as far as densifying is concerned is to get some mass-transit on Columbia Pike. The streetcar will be nice, but at some point, it would be great to have something a bit more heavier-duty to go along the Pike from the Pentagon to Rt. 7 with maybe even some longer-term plan to extend to Annandale and Spingfield/Burke. I've heard that the Pentagon station had some stub or something in case there was an expansion for metro on Columbia Pike. I'd love for Shirlington to have Metro, but I think some sort of heavy mass transit along Rt. 7 from Alexandria through Falls Church and Tysons at least would make the most sense.

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Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
Is the flying junction west of Rosslyn station where Orange/Blue converge a Y junction or are all train movements possible? I.e. could one route trains from Franconia to Vienna?

Given the low peak flow currently contributed by the Blue Line at that point, I'm wondering if such a routing like that above could be run at much lower frequencies to make room in the tunnel for Orange+Silver, while running increased Yellow Line service as a branch split operation west of the river (i.e. make permanent the Rush+ concept).
I'm pretty sure that's not possible. I want to say that it might have been in the plans long ago based on the many articles and comments I've read on blogs, but I don't think that capability exists right now.
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  #415  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 1:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
Is the flying junction west of Rosslyn station where Orange/Blue converge a Y junction or are all train movements possible? I.e. could one route trains from Franconia to Vienna?

Given the low peak flow currently contributed by the Blue Line at that point, I'm wondering if such a routing like that above could be run at much lower frequencies to make room in the tunnel for Orange+Silver, while running increased Yellow Line service as a branch split operation west of the river (i.e. make permanent the Rush+ concept).
It's a Y junction... Rosslyn is actually designed on a split level with the outbound track one level below the inbound track, which facilitates the junction.

I don't think there are provisions to allow the other two movements from Vienna to Franconia and vice-versa.
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  #416  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 2:06 AM
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Yea, I'm not sure you could sequence it. A lot of problems could be alleviated with a third track and/or platform between certain stretches at least. Would a new Rosslyn tunnel be intended for only one line to be able to take it?.
The simplest way to do it would be to design a whole new Rosslyn station under, say, Key Blvd connected to the existing station via pedestrian tunnels, with no track connection. That's what the map shows. East Falls Church is a little less clear... it seems the Orange and Silver Lines would still share track between East and West Falls Church, so you'd have flexibility there.

The best solution is probably the most expensive one: re-route the tunnels such that the Orange Line goes from Courthouse to the new Rosslyn to Georgetown to M, whereas the Silver Line goes from the new I-66 express tracks to the old Rosslyn station and then under the Potomac to Foggy Bottom. That way, the airport line would hit the core of the city with hotels and tourist destinations while the Orange Line's commuters could be taken directly to M, which is close to K St offices.

Running the Silver Line through the old Rosslyn station would also make the transfer easy for airport-bound passengers coming from the Pentagon, Alexandria and Crystal City. Obviously you'd still have a ton of people transferring, so the pedestrian tunnels should be large.
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  #417  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 3:22 AM
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Originally Posted by novawolverine View Post
The main areas for densification in the long-term for Arlington near or around I-66 would be in the areas where the Orange Line already exists, like East Falls Church. Lee Highway and Sprout Run would be the only no-brainer place, but that might be enough. Lee Highway from Rosslyn through Fairfax has numerous places for cluster-style development/mixed-use density.

I think what would be great for Arlington, and Fairfax, as far as densifying is concerned is to get some mass-transit on Columbia Pike. The streetcar will be nice, but at some point, it would be great to have something a bit more heavier-duty to go along the Pike from the Pentagon to Rt. 7 with maybe even some longer-term plan to extend to Annandale and Spingfield/Burke. I've heard that the Pentagon station had some stub or something in case there was an expansion for metro on Columbia Pike. I'd love for Shirlington to have Metro, but I think some sort of heavy mass transit along Rt. 7 from Alexandria through Falls Church and Tysons at least would make the most sense.
There are a pair of stub tunnels at or near the Pentagon station that were built for future connection to a Metro line under Columbia Pike. Your idea of running a line on a top be determined route through Arlington between the Pentagon station and East Falls Church to the Silver Line is an interesting one, but I don't it has been seriously considered. Does not show up in the various alternatives shown in the viewgraph presentations at the DC Metro Technical Advisory group webpage. That new route would then dump more traffic onto the busy Yellow and Green lines - unless it woudl then cut to a new N-S line in DC running further west to Union Station.

Among the capacity chokepoints in the DC Metro system that any major new line has to address in the core are Union Station which is the busiest station in the Metro system and the Orange-Blue crunch from Rosslyn through the city. So the conceptual looks at the line - be it re-routed Silver or Blue lines - through Georgetown to M St to Union Station as among the studied alternatives.
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  #418  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 4:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The simplest way to do it would be to design a whole new Rosslyn station under, say, Key Blvd connected to the existing station via pedestrian tunnels, with no track connection. That's what the map shows. East Falls Church is a little less clear... it seems the Orange and Silver Lines would still share track between East and West Falls Church, so you'd have flexibility there.

The best solution is probably the most expensive one: re-route the tunnels such that the Orange Line goes from Courthouse to the new Rosslyn to Georgetown to M, whereas the Silver Line goes from the new I-66 express tracks to the old Rosslyn station and then under the Potomac to Foggy Bottom. That way, the airport line would hit the core of the city with hotels and tourist destinations while the Orange Line's commuters could be taken directly to M, which is close to K St offices.

Running the Silver Line through the old Rosslyn station would also make the transfer easy for airport-bound passengers coming from the Pentagon, Alexandria and Crystal City. Obviously you'd still have a ton of people transferring, so the pedestrian tunnels should be large.
The problem with the Silver Line re-route along I-66 is where would it fit? There is no median strip once the Orange Line goes underground nor much room in the I-66 ROW. The new line would have to go underground or be elevated. An elevated line would be a problem because the line has to go DEEP to get under the Potomac to Georgetown. The Silver Line re-route concept would probably require an underground pair of tunnels splitting off from the Orange Line tunnels to a new station north of and below the Rosslyn station that then heads north under the Potomac river which would be seriously expensive.

The Blue Line re-route could go under the current Rosslyn station & tunnels in a new connected station and then veer off to new tunnels under the Potomac to Georgetown. Still an expensive project, but fewer miles of tunnels. The Blue line re-route through Georgetown and M St scored better in the traffic analysis IIRC.

Switching the Orange Line to the new route through Georgetown and along M street would not fly at all. The Orange line does not just connect to the tourist areas, but numerous federal office buildings from Foggy Bottom to Federal Triangle to L'Enfant Plaza to Federal Center SW. There are many people who have brought homes along the Orange Line to commute to the federal offices. The route of going along I-66 and then into the Rosslyn station and then in the current tunnels under the Potomac does not work. The Rosslyn station is oriented N-S with the Orange and Blue line merging south of it.

One of the alternatives looked at were interline connectors at Rosslyn to go from Orange to Blue, another one near the Pentagon to go from Blue to Yellow, and another south of L'Enfant Plaza to go from Yellow to Blue. The interline connector at Rosslyn is an interesting idea, but would be majorly expensive with new station platforms at Rosslyn.
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  #419  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 2:05 PM
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There are a pair of stub tunnels at or near the Pentagon station that were built for future connection to a Metro line under Columbia Pike. Your idea of running a line on a top be determined route through Arlington between the Pentagon station and East Falls Church to the Silver Line is an interesting one, but I don't it has been seriously considered. Does not show up in the various alternatives shown in the viewgraph presentations at the DC Metro Technical Advisory group webpage. That new route would then dump more traffic onto the busy Yellow and Green lines - unless it woudl then cut to a new N-S line in DC running further west to Union Station.

Among the capacity chokepoints in the DC Metro system that any major new line has to address in the core are Union Station which is the busiest station in the Metro system and the Orange-Blue crunch from Rosslyn through the city. So the conceptual looks at the line - be it re-routed Silver or Blue lines - through Georgetown to M St to Union Station as among the studied alternatives.
I don't think the Rt. 7 line from King St. to Tysons has been seriously considered, either. There is bus service, and possibly some express service or something for that route, but I haven't heard of Metro looking at that, either.

I think the cross-town subway along with new tunnel need to be the major priorities for the WMATA going forward with Metro. These projects take so long to execute, hopefully there are some serious talks about it in the next few years or so as the Tysons projects winds down.
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  #420  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2012, 4:43 PM
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In June they're starting [Rush+]... I think they're doing this in part to alleviate some of the crowding on the orange line, but also to prepare for the inclusion of silver line trains late next year when the portion through Tysons Corner is slated to open.
That's pretty much the reason. By cutting back on Blue Line service, it frees up 6 tph through Rosslyn; those will initially run as Orange Line trains, but eventually will become Silver Line trains. What I don't know yet:
- What times will Rush+ be in operation?
- Those 6 tph will run now as Orange Line between RFK and Largo, which means they'll be cut back to RFK once they become Silver Line. Do the Prince George's reps on the board understand that?

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Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
Is the flying junction west of Rosslyn station where Orange/Blue converge a Y junction or are all train movements possible?
It's just a Y. There's a really amazing WMATA track diagram online:
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...030-track-map/

As you can see, Metrorail was built without a lot of redundancies -- pocket tracks, junctions, crossovers -- that would give it more options in terms of flexibility, recovering from irrops, etc. Hence, things like why Yellow trains have to turn at MVS instead of Ft. Totten during peak times: there's no pocket track at Ft. Totten, so the current turning maneuver (use the crossover, back into the station) takes too long to accomplish during the peak. Several of these are on Metro's long-term radar, but as we know Rosslyn is drilled into some serious rock and it would be an expensive bit o' tunnel.

Four additional interlinings, including the Rosslyn bypass, and models of how they'd work operationally, are in this TAG presentation: http://planitmetro.com/wp-content/up...2010-FINAL.pdf
Something I (as a neighborhood resident) think is interesting in these TAG presentations is that the system will start to run into core capacity constraints on Yellow and Green south of L'Enfant in the long term.

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Originally Posted by OhioGuy View Post
That would certainly cut back significantly on the convenience of getting from one side of Arlington to the other.
There are also buses... Not sure if ART has long-term plans to add service that will pick up the slack in terms of getting north-south across Arlington, but the service is already much improved from just a few years ago.

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I think what would be great for Arlington, and Fairfax, as far as densifying is concerned is to get some mass-transit on Columbia Pike... I've heard that the Pentagon station had some stub or something in case there was an expansion for metro on Columbia Pike.
Yep, they're visible from within the tunnel just south of Pentagon (and on the track diagram). Skyline (at Bailey's Crossroads) was built in anticipation of that.
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