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  #1  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2012, 10:06 PM
nec209 nec209 is offline
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Question The evolution of stores and the different built pattern

I'm very interested in the evolution of stores to what we have now and the different built environment of cities low ,medium or high density of urban look and feel.

I have read some books and this is what I understand so far.


Here are some google street view pictures that may explain it better.

In the old days before 1920 people would live above the store and the store would be at the street .

But in the 20's and 30's do to automobile ownership it became the norm for most cities to have one story -store front like this

This was big in US very much so in the sun belt cities of that time.This was not case in Canada for some reason I will say below.





But than I believe has ownership was more popular in the 40's and 50's it was norm to move way from the classic store front with use of the ribbon system or so called commercial strip. A strip along the road with small parking choped up into very small lots like this











These commercial strip was alot like the main street or market street most cities would have .

It was a bad for finding parking some times do to parking lots where very small and one would have to park some times behind the store or the side of the store .


This was big thing in US .This was not case in Canada for some reason I will say below.


But by the 60's so called middle class and most people own car and house that city planners started to embrace suburban look and feel.


The 60's with plazas and malls the road side strip was not so big also the road side strip of 60's and 70's the building was pulled back from the road and bigger parking lot and more car centric feel.



The 60's and 70's road side strip the building was pulled back from the road and bigger parking lot and more car centric feel








Than in 60's do to hardly anyone walking it was norm to move way from urban built pattern to embrace the suburb look and feel the use of plazas ,lots of parking !! Before the mid 90's before box stores and power centers took off.

This was not case in Canada for some reason I will say below.



From what I understand Canada evolution of stores and the different built pattern where very different.

Canada was strong on mix use where people live above the store and much higher density and transit oriented to 60's before malls took of!!

Than the late 90's box stores and power centers.

There was some of these commercial strip in the 40's and 50's and bit in 60's in Canada but was not big like the US .

In the west coast of Canada there are some of the one story store front but nothing like the sun belt cities in the US.

I think do to Canada did not have the Euclidean zoning of the 20's like the US had was one of the reasons Canada was strong on mix use where people live above the store and much higher density and transit oriented to 60's before suburbs took hold .




Note I was going talk about Vancouver but I have not gone around yet for taking google street view pictures of Vancouver .
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 16, 2012, 1:27 AM
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If you want photos of Vancouver's traditional car centric retail you're better off looking for historic photos, much of the mid twentieth century car centric stuff that was built in Vancouver has been demolished and replaced with high density mixed use buildings and transit oriented developments. You can still find some, but it's scattered about and there's no intact early car centric strips, what exists was mostly built in the eighties and nineties and is in newer, more suburban cities. You can find strips that are a few decades older than this, starting with architecture from around the mid-sixties, in most Canadian regions, although the layouts look a bit different from your picture, especially the setbacks.

Last edited by BIMBAM; Apr 16, 2012 at 1:44 AM.
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2012, 1:38 AM
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Take a look at Canadian cities other than Vancouver—and at some US cities besides Albuquerque and Phoenix. Here's Calgary, for instance:



The differences in cities that developed at the same time, with similar geographic circumstances, are not enormous. Boston and Montréal are more alike than they are different. The same for Toronto and Chicago, Winnipeg and Minneapolis, Edmonton and Tulsa, Vancouver and San Francisco. There are, however, a few important differences between Canadian and US cities that have certainly affected planning and land use:
  • Canadians have historically been more accepting of government land-use controls. Canadian cities have not had generations of leapfrog development. Development is a little higher density overall, but more important, Canadian cities grow outward incrementally rather than in jumps that leave undeveloped areas in between.
  • Canada's immigration policies have brought many families willing to work long hours as shopkeepers, and who have cultural traditions of urban retailing. This has kept strong retail streets going in Toronto and helped build new malls in Richmond.
  • Canada has only 60 percent as much retail space per capita as the US. For various reasons, it has been easy for Americans to build new retail areas and abandon the old ones. In part, this is related to the abandonment of parts of American cities for racial and cultural reasons that Canadians do not share.
You might be interested in looking at Michael Goldberg's 1986 book The Myth of the North American City: Continentalism Challenged. Similar ground was covered in a 1996 journal article by Judith Garber and David Imbroscio called "'The Myth of the North American City' Reconsidered: Local Constitutional Regimes in Canada and the United States" in Urban Affairs Review, Vol. 31, No. 5, 595-624 (1996).
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 16, 2012, 1:40 AM
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Great, another "Why can't the U.S. be more like Canada?" thread.

From what I've seen, storefronts in the 20s and 30s where not as you have stated (the one-story building). The strip centers and auto-centric shopping centers came much later, as the automobile did not become commonplace for a couple of decades.

The "sunbelt" cities followed much the same pattern as other cities during the specific eras - if they were large enough cities at the time to do so. Cities like New Orleans, Atlanta, L.A., Houston, Dallas, Richmond, Memphis, etc were large enough to have had a great amount of development in the city prior to the rise of the automobile.
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2012, 1:50 AM
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Vancouver has a lot but its being replaced - kingsway is where you will find most of the strip malls these days

the suburbs have plenty
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  #6  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2012, 3:23 AM
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Quote:
The differences in cities that developed at the same time, with similar geographic circumstances, are not enormous. Boston and Montréal are more alike than they are different. The same for Toronto and Chicago, Winnipeg and Minneapolis, Edmonton and Tulsa, Vancouver and San Francisco. There are, however, a few important differences between Canadian and US cities that have certainly affected planning

Intresting I will have to look at some more cities in Canada and the US .But I think what puzzles me is looking at Los Angeles that is walking and driving hybrid urban look and Albuquerque and Phoenix that is driving urban look.

I don't know cities in Canada that look like this . I have not seen these urban suburb look or city that is hybrid of walking and driving.

Cities in Canada are more classic urban look or suburb look no in between look. Pre ww2 urban and post ww2 suburb.

Where the US has these urban suburb looks or hybrid built pattern of walking and driving and transition to car use.

Canada is more pre ww2 urban and post ww2 suburb.


Now when you look at cities in the US and Canada built in 60's to now they are more alike in the suburb look and feel.


May be the city planners in Canada looked more at the city planners in Europe than the US.
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2012, 5:23 AM
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We hear alot about comparisons like these between the US in Canada, but the reality is the differences weren't that big and we're fairly familiar with them. What I think might be a more edifying comparison, however, would be looking at how the process of transitioning retail to an autocentric model went down in Australia, the other suburbanized new world country, which I don't think we hear enough about. Just, I'm not sure the US vs. Canada thing will bring us very far (essentially it started a little later than in the US and didn't go quite as far basically end of story), but I feel like Australia might yield some interesting discussions as checking out their suburban mainstreets on google maps makes me realize how different their suburbs are to those here, and I'd be fascinated to know some more about the history.
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2012, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown
Yes, I saw the message but it was very difficult to understand the meaning. It did not seem to contain any question.
May be some members got confused because I some times repeat my self 2 or 3 times in post to try to explain that just seems to confused them more.

Anyways I think the question ( I will do it again very short and to the point ) is why cities in Canada did not take on these urban suburb look like you see in the south west part of the US.

I think these look where popular in the US in the 20's , 30's , 40's and 50's
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 26, 2012, 7:23 AM
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Canada didn't have the same suburban draw or white flight that the USA did

and probably zoning and bylaws made a difference
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Old Posted Apr 26, 2012, 7:29 AM
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If I understand the OP, there is less of this kind of weirdness in Canada?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Univer...19.81,,0,-4.81

The mutant 1950s mixed use strip mall...with a single row of parking in front in suburban St. Louis.

Or this is just across the street. Single story but same deal, small amount of off street parking in front, the strip mall prototype. Note the pedestrians kind of spilled off the small sidewalk onto the small lot.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Univer...,,0,-5.11&z=17

I've always kind of been fascinated by these kinds of structures, and figured they could be re-adapted easily enough.
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Last edited by Centropolis; Apr 26, 2012 at 7:41 AM.
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2012, 2:10 PM
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Because no Canadian cities are located in the south west part of the US.

I refer my learned colleague to the answer previously given.
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2012, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
Because no Canadian cities are located in the south west part of the US.

I refer my learned colleague to the answer previously given.
I think it is more than just that .

Canada is other country so the city planning schools may be different that just one theory I have or other theory they looked at Europe.

Canada downtown core is more mix use where has in the US this is not aways the case .In the past 10 years and very much so 8 years there is more redevelopment in the downtown area like in Toronto , Calgary ,Vancouver so on.

Other think very alien to the US is tower in park concept a 15 to 20 story apartment place in the suburbs in low density sprawl single family homes that was very popular in the 60's and 70's and was not popular in the 80's and 90's and now making a come back with highrise condos.


In the US city with more costly land value and higher desity build mix use store-fronts like this




And in the US starting in the 20's ( do to Euclidean zoning of the 20's ) and areas with lower land value or lower desity build one story store-fronts like this.





This look is very popular in the sun belt cities like in the south west and may be the Mexican architecture has some thing to do with it . Well building in Mexico are built out of clay not brink and bright colors and one story store-front is very popular .

Canada was never really into this do to we do not have the Euclidean zoning of the 20's and we are not close to Mexico and we looked more at the UK than the US.

And it could be that city planning schools are different here than the US or we looked at Europe city planners.
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 29, 2012, 2:38 AM
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You really need to stop lumping the entire South and West into one big general category. Most of the area you're referring to IS NOT as you describe. Everyone has learned from your past threads that you are talking about L.A./Phoenix/Albuquerque, so how about referencing those cities rather than the "sunbelt" or the entire southern and western U.S.? Most of the South has nothing like the "Mexican architecture" pictured above, so it's kind of offensive to be included in your analysis when it just isn't true.

Last edited by TarHeelJ; Apr 29, 2012 at 3:24 AM.
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2012, 3:16 AM
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Sad to say, city planners have had almost no influence over the built form in either the US or Canada. City planners do not determine what will be built. The differences between US and Canadian cities are actually rather small when you compare cities from the same era and similar geography. Most of the differences that do exist have to do with climate and culture.
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 29, 2012, 6:46 PM
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I'll give you an overview of my home town of Slough, Berkshire, England. a town of 130,000 just to the west of London. Though there are various small hamlets that have existed here for hundreds of years, the real growth in population began when the Great Western line was built in 1840. In the interwar years mass suburbanisation began in the UK especially around London and Slough grew rapidly in the 1920's and 1930's. this is when the majority of its growth occurred. growth resumed after the war but strict green belt laws meant that Slough was built out by the 1970's and there has been only the been a few subdivsions since.

Planning controls are much stricter in the UK and the second world war had a massive effect on car ownership in the UK. It was not till the 1960's that it overtook the levels seen in the 1930's. Consequently most shopping areas have limited parking in comparison to the US.

Also most shopping areas have kept to historic town centres or old village centres have been the focus of new suburban shopping areas. So most 'strip' retail is a mix mostly pedestrian focused streets with a mix of buildings from different ages as older buildings have been demolished for new.

There has though been some out of centre development and most towns have kept it fairly limited.


Slough Town centre.
















Massively redeveloped since the 1930's till the 1990's. The high street is still going strong. It is the shopping malls that need to be demolished and rebuilt as they no longer meet modern retailer requirements. The high street is partially pedestrianised. The town centre was half demolished in the 1960's to build an inner bypass. It was hideous. Currently it is in the process of being rebuilt as a proper avenue and hopefully a prettier town centre will emerge



Farnham Road. The biggest suburban street outside the town centre. Built in the 1920's in the first boom. Few of the original buildings left as has been rebuilt in stages in the 1950's 1970's and now. This street is on the edge of the massive trading estate, The shops here are a mix of family owned business, there are lot of shops that are focused on the building trade, electricals. Still a heavily asian areas, though the Polish have made big inroads here.


















A typical small suburban centre (langley) with a mix buildings and a purpose built shopping mini mall with flats. Though there are terraces built near the railway station, the majority of the area was built in the 60's and 70's. This area has banks, small supermarkets, opticians, fast food places dentist etc.















Here is a prettier suburban high street formed round the historical core of Burnham. Though part of Sloughs built up area it is across the city boundary in the much richer South Bucks. The main road was built around the old high street and so it is not traffic choked like others in Slough.




















Suburbs in the UK are planned. Planners often designated spots were small parades of shops would be built so people could walk to some shops for everyday needs.

For example here is one from the 1950's set around a green. Notice it lost part of it to cater for the growth in car ownership. A smaller selection of shops than Langley and as it is not on a main road suffers from a lack of passing trade.





Contrast it with this parade from the 1970's




It's on a through road near a trading estate, hence the ever popular tesco express and is continually busy.



Here are the two main retail parks in Slough

This one is more home furnishing focused. Many councils placed bulky good restrictions in their parks, so that they could only sell electricals' or furniture. In the last decade or so more traditional town centre stores have moved out of town.





This one contains two clothing stores and a general retailer, rather than the traditional tenants of the other park.





These aerial shots cover the remaining out of centre retail strips for Slough, thats all for a town of 130,000.



     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2012, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
Sad to say, city planners have had almost no influence over the built form in either the US or Canada. City planners do not determine what will be built. The differences between US and Canadian cities are actually rather small when you compare cities from the same era and similar geography. Most of the differences that do exist have to do with climate and culture.

Has some one who has gone to school I can tell you that is not true at all.Try building mobile trailer park in city and they will not allow it.

Try putting up neo sign and big signs and you see how hard it will be to get okay .Try poping up strip clubs and night clubs on every street and you see how hard it is .

IT IS CALLED CITY ORDINANCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is Euclidean zoning ?? The Euclidean zoning of 20's separate residential ,commercial ,industrial in zoning areas.This was main thing in US that killed mix use building starting in the 20's .

The sun belt cities and very much the south west was very strong on property rights and very much against city planners and government telling what they can or cannot belt.

Have you ever gone to Mexico and Brazil ? If so there are are homes built with no city permit yes no city permit !!!

Other parts of the US and Canada are very stong on CITY ORDINANCE and Zoning laws and needed a permit to built any thing.



Quote:
You really need to stop lumping the entire South and West into one big general category. Most of the area you're referring to IS NOT as you describe.
The south west in the US use to be part Mexico and I do know the Mexico look is bright colors and clay not brink .

Quote:
Everyone has learned from your past threads that you are talking about L.A./Phoenix/Albuquerque, so how about referencing those cities rather than the "sunbelt" or the entire southern and western U.S.? Most of the South has nothing like the "Mexican architecture" pictured above, so it's kind of offensive to be included in your analysis when it just isn't true.

Why ? Because cities in the sunbelt and south west do not have old history like other cities in the US that will look older. And alot of those single story store -fronts there seems to be alot of them there than other parts in ths US.

I'm well aware LA is very unique city in world that look and feel urban and hybrid urban/suburban urban look and feel where most other cities do not look like this in the world.

I'm well aware Phoenix/Albuquerque look newer than LA and more car urban suburb look and feel.

And I'm well aware Las Vagas look even newer Phoenix/Albuquerque and Las Vagas is suburb nothing urban suburb looking at all other than very small down town.

I'm well aware San Francisco has it look and feel.I have not look at Dalls or Fort Worth but it looks very spread out .

But the bright colors and building built out of clay not brink and single story store-front is Mexico look that got that look from colonial spain architecture.


Quote:
We hear alot about comparisons like these between the US in Canada, but the reality is the differences weren't that big and we're fairly familiar with them. What I think might be a more edifying comparison, however, would be looking at how the process of transitioning retail to an autocentric model went down in Australia, the other suburbanized new world country, which I don't think we hear enough about. Just, I'm not sure the US vs. Canada thing will bring us very far (essentially it started a little later than in the US and didn't go quite as far basically end of story), but I feel like Australia might yield some interesting discussions as checking out their suburban mainstreets on google maps makes me realize how different their suburbs are to those here, and I'd be fascinated to know some more about the history.

When you go to cities in the US or Canada built in the mid 60's to now for the most part they look the same .But from 1920 to mid 60's that not case.



Look at Rational Plan3 pictures in the UK they have more common in the none sub belt cities that was strong on dark brown brick or gray brick than the bright colors .




Cities in US and Canada was strong on mix use like this and narrow street but the Euclidean zoning in the 20's in the US killed this .


This could easy be 40's and 50's strip in Toronto


Where in the US alot cities in 40's and 50's where putting this type of strip up do to Euclidean zoning and most people where driving by that time .And by the 60's the building where pulled back from the road and bigger parking lot .



Canada did not have Euclidean zoning so they where stronger on mix use to 60's

The cities in the 60's in Canada killed the urban look and we never got suburb urban look so became very car centric and suburb look.
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 30, 2012, 10:30 PM
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Well you have admitted in your other threads of this same nature that you only know about Albuquerque LA and Phoenix, yet now you claim to know about the entire southern and southwestern U.S.? Which is it?

Your threads seem to have no real purpose and you don't know what you're talking about when you refer to the "sunbelt". The built form of LA is nothing like the built form of Memphis, Atlanta, or Richmond - all of which are in the American South that you are including in your theories.
     
     
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Old Posted Apr 30, 2012, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TarHeelJ View Post
Well you have admitted in your other threads of this same nature that you only know about Albuquerque LA and Phoenix, yet now you claim to know about the entire southern and southwestern U.S.? Which is it?

Your threads seem to have no real purpose and you don't know what you're talking about when you refer to the "sunbelt". The built form of LA is nothing like the built form of Memphis, Atlanta, or Richmond - all of which are in the American South that you are including in your theories.
The only claims I made about southern and southwestern US was about the building built out of clay not brink ..

Also alot of single story store-front in the southern and southwestern US I see that I do not see too many in the none sun belt cities like I do in the southern and southwestern US .

And part about the sun belt cities and very much the south west was very strong on property rights and very much against city planners and government telling what they can or cannot belt.

Also the sun belt cities where lose on sprawl and lose about non mix use.The flat land and desert or semi desert may also play big part too.

Last edited by nec209; May 1, 2012 at 4:35 PM.
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted May 8, 2012, 3:58 AM
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Have you ever gone to Mexico and Brazil ? If so there are are homes built with no city permit yes no city permit !!!
yes, they are called favelas. Its easy for the city administration to remove ONE irregular house. But when dozens or hundreds of families sprout suddenly in a place, what politician will order them removed?
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Old Posted May 8, 2012, 8:43 PM
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The only claims I made about southern and southwestern US was about the building built out of clay not brink ..

Also alot of single story store-front in the southern and southwestern US I see that I do not see too many in the none sun belt cities like I do in the southern and southwestern US .

And part about the sun belt cities and very much the south west was very strong on property rights and very much against city planners and government telling what they can or cannot belt.

Also the sun belt cities where lose on sprawl and lose about non mix use.The flat land and desert or semi desert may also play big part too.
You have already noted more than once in other threads that you only know about Phoenix, LA, and Albuquerque and you don't have the same information about other cities in the region. The things you say are not true about the entire sunbelt - most of which is nothing at all like those 3 cities. If you are only talking about those three then it would seem best to state that and not include a huge area of the U.S. that you admittedly aren't familiar with, don't you think?

Buildings in the South are very much built of brick and not of clay as you claim above. Also the South in mosly not flat and there is no desert. You are obviously referring to Arizona/New Mexico/Southern CA as you have stated in the past - not the entire southwestern and southern U.S.

Last edited by TarHeelJ; May 9, 2012 at 4:00 AM.
     
     
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