Gateway Discussion: Port Mann Bridge/Hwy 1/RapidBus

[East Van]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Some of it is temporary.

Not these ones east of King Ed overpass headed eastbound.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

One thing I learned from the last time I was in Germany (in the Black Forest) is that each community is responsible for its roads. If you get into an accident because the roads aren't clear or if a pothole damages your car, you can go to the police station in the local township and ask for compensation.

Of course, the first thing the police department will look at is the physical condition of your tires and brakes... because they don't want to shell out if they don't have to. However, they do have a sense of required responsibility.

Likewise, if you get into an accident, fault is not only about if you were in front or behind. The condition of the car is a strong indicator of fault as well. The person who has not maintained the safety featured of their car, namely the brakes and tires and other related components will have a higher chance of being at fault.

With systems like that and a culture that puts a high emphasis on precision, people and municipalities are highly motivated to keep their cars and roads in good condition. As such, roads can be built to accommodate higher speeds as more cars can safely travel at these speeds.

Britain's MOT ensures a higher standard when it comes to car maintenance. Japan has standards that are high enough that people usually don't even bother with the hassle of owning a car that's 10 years or older... which is why we import them. They're bought for pennies on the dollar and we use 'em here.

It keeps the nation's fleet of cars up to date, stimulates the domestic car industry (artificially, perhaps) and improved general road safety.

To insure a car you have to pass a detailed mechanical inspection, kind of like air-care here. Half the cars on the road here would likely not pass their mechanical inspection is most European countries and would never be able to be used on the roads there.

[dharper]

Does anyone know if they are ever going to put the webcams on the North end of the Port Mann bridge back online?

Also, why don't they pick an interchange and finish it. It seems that many of them are 75-80% finished, and they are just putting around on them. I am talking mostly about 160th and 176th street ones. It seems if they wanted to, they could finish those off in less than week.

[DKaz]

Where's xd_1771? I want to hear his take on this.

http://www.pmh1project.com/Construct...2020120427.pdf

[GeeCee]

New Willingdon overpass approaches appear to be nearly complete. Not sure when traffic is supposed to shift over, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner rather than later.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

New Willingdon overpass approaches appear to be nearly complete. Not sure when traffic is supposed to shift over, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner rather than later.

I've been impatiently waiting for this for a long time. Right now it's almost impossible to access the Central Valley Greenway cycle path if you're coming from BCIT because the only way across the freeway is on the west side of the overpass.

[GeeCee]

They're still pouring concrete as of today. I guess it's not quite as close to completion as I thought it was.

[go_leafs_go02]

Pot of Gold at the base of the new port mann:

[Really]

Well certainly a $3 billion pot of gold for the builders. For taxpayers, a pot of debt. It will take years before the tolls cover the yearly financing and operating costs. If traffic is under projections due to the tolls, people switching to transit, other bridges and people driving less, could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars for decades.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Really

If traffic is under projections due to the tolls, people switching to transit, other bridges and people driving less, could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars for decades.

You make it sound like that isn't worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

People planning to go to Patullo will quickly give up.

[go_leafs_go02]

You're going to see shifts on traffic volumes from the bridge to other spots during the first month or so, as people try to see what alternatives are around, but in the end. People taking the Port Mann now will most likely take it in the future, and you may see a higher shift from Pattullo and even Alex Fraser because of the additional capacity opening up from 5 to 10 total lanes.

It's during the off-peak or late night periods that you may see a drop in volume. Pattullo likely will be busier during those periods, but AM & PM Peaks, I doubt you see any drops in traffic volume, it will stay the same, or increase.

Golden Ears Bridge was under projections because you opened up a connection to two communities who never relied on travelling between them. Pitt Meadows and Walnut Grove could have been across an international border beforehand. As well, I don't think you save any time taking the Golden Ears Bridge north to Lougheed over the Pitt River Bridge onto the Mary Hill Bypass to bypass the Port Mann, if you did, it would be negated in the toll you'd be paying.

The Port Mann will be fine I think, the first month will be crazy and all over the place, but once traffic stabilizes, and people realize that the free alternative is not really realistic at peak times (Pattullo Bridge)

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Golden Ears Bridge was under projections because you opened up a connection to two communities who never relied on travelling between them.

One would have thought that those projections would have taken such an obvious fact into account. Since the the GEB projections were so optimistic it makes you wonder what obvious factor may have been forgotten when they were working out the expected traffic levels for the tolled Port Mann. High gas prices, perhaps?

[jlousa]

While it's still under projections, the traffic is increasing quite quickly. 2011 traffic was up 12.5% over 2010 traffic, and 2012 is up another 12% from 2011 numbers. So it's not quite as dire as it once appeared and will probably hit projections once the Port Mann opens up.

Source:
http://www.vancouversun.com/Traffic+...485/story.html

[Metro-One]

again, these is a saying in GIS, all models (predictions) are wrong, but some are helpful.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by jlousa

While it's still under projections, the traffic is increasing quite quickly. 2011 traffic was up 12.5% over 2010 traffic, and 2012 is up another 12% from 2011 numbers. So it's not quite as dire as it once appeared and will probably hit projections once the Port Mann opens up.

Source:
http://www.vancouversun.com/Traffic+...485/story.html

Yep, not surprisingly, it's not like providing a rapid transit route, where a bus route or a road already exists along the same or a very similar corridor.

Before the golden Ears Bridge, you'd never say, oh let's live in Walnut Grove or Langley and drive to Maple Ridge for work or school. The ferry that existed to the east was literally an hour plus in terms of delay at peak times (4-5 sail waits at 15 minutes per sailing during rush hours)

The toll had likely little or no impact on trips using the bridge during peak times. In the late evenings, yes, you may choose to drive over the Port Mann Bridge to avoid the toll at present, but I think once the Port Mann bridge has its toll, you will see even more traffic on the Golden Ears Bridge (I'm talking a 20% spike in traffic next year)

All just thoughts, and obviously no studies done on my end, but the doom and gloom about people cheaping out to save $6 a day on tolls is not going to happen in the end. Pattullo Bridge will fail miserably in traffic delays. Plus they're adding 50% capacity over the new bridge. Travel speeds will rise, travel times will drop, and people will learn to pay sooner than later.

[Metro-One]

And this is what I find funny about those against road / bridge expansion.

Either outcome they would equate it to failure.

GEB is under projection "what a waste of money, see we don't need new roads!"

GEB on projection "OMG, what a horrible mistake, encouraging people to drive!"

GEB over projection "See, I told you, all new roads instantly become grid lock!"

Thats what i find funny

Personally, I think it is great it is below projection. That means for once we actually built a structure with the future in mind, instead of it being full on opening day.

The same way the new transit bus connections over the bridge were not immediately full, the same is true with general traffic but both will increase are stronger live / work and economic ties are made between north and south of the river in that area.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Really

Well certainly a $3 billion pot of gold for the builders. For taxpayers, a pot of debt. It will take years before the tolls cover the yearly financing and operating costs. If traffic is under projections due to the tolls, people switching to transit, other bridges and people driving less, could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars for decades.

You make it sound like people switching to transit and driving less is a bad thing.

Aren't those societal benefits? Doesn't increased transit use benefit public infrastructure by using infrastructure more efficiently?

If people are paying a toll, or people are paying a transit fare, in the end, the public burden is reduced... except that money goes to local coffers instead of provincial ones (like the bridge toll does)

Increased traffic to the Patullo and other bridges... now THAT's something I can somewhat agree with. However, it will simply be people who should have been taking the Patullo anyhow. People who are going to New West and South Burnaby will now take routes through Surrey. People going to Coquitlam, East Vancouver, North Burnaby and Downtown will continue to take the freeway.

Hey, they could've made the bridge free to cross. THEN, you'd have people complaining about the cost.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by dharper

Does anyone know if they are ever going to put the webcams on the North end of the Port Mann bridge back online?

Also, why don't they pick an interchange and finish it. It seems that many of them are 75-80% finished, and they are just putting around on them. I am talking mostly about 160th and 176th street ones. It seems if they wanted to, they could finish those off in less than week.

That is the way Kiewet works. They tend to go around in circles and leave stuff 3/4 finished. I wonder if it has to do with contractual draws. Sea to sky was that way also. Look at the 168th interchange it took over 2 years. That is plain crazy. They would show up for night shifts and Kiewet would send them home as they did not book enough concrete or something

[Metro-One]

Yeah, same with the Pitt River Bridge, took them forever to finish it, and they never landscaped around the interchange at all, just weeds and rocks between the ramps.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

You make it sound like people switching to transit and driving less is a bad thing.

Aren't those societal benefits? Doesn't increased transit use benefit public infrastructure by using infrastructure more efficiently?

If people are paying a toll, or people are paying a transit fare, in the end, the public burden is reduced... except that money goes to local coffers instead of provincial ones (like the bridge toll does)

Increased traffic to the Patullo and other bridges... now THAT's something I can somewhat agree with. However, it will simply be people who should have been taking the Patullo anyhow. People who are going to New West and South Burnaby will now take routes through Surrey. People going to Coquitlam, East Vancouver, North Burnaby and Downtown will continue to take the freeway.

Hey, they could've made the bridge free to cross. THEN, you'd have people complaining about the cost.

GEB is an underbuilt overpriced bridge and is going to be a thorn in the side of Translink for years to come. If this was a ministry bridge it would be a different story as funding is different. We as tax payers paying into translink will be the ones that shell out the cash to the 3P partnership.

They money should have been put into the patello bridge or upgraded Surrey transit.

If you talked to 100 people in infrastructure be it an engineer or carpenter they would have said the same thing that the GEB is a pink elephant