HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum.

Since 1999, SkyscraperPage.com's forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web.  The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics.  SkyscraperPage.com also features unique skyscraper diagrams, a database of construction activity, and publishes popular skyscraper posters.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #4401  
Old Posted May 4, 2012, 5:40 PM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
I agree with Ottawan, right on the nose. But to eternallyme, I think we should also think about the local neighbourhood, by actually building stations on the Western leg, too:
- Scott/Island Park (@Richmond would be better, but compromising with reality)
- Scott/Churchill (@Richmond would be better, but compromising with reality)
- Richmond/Byron and somewhere between Golden and Broadview (however that curve through Rochester field works, but as close to Westboro as possible)
The line doesn't have to move over to Richmond/Byron at Rochester Field. It can, with the agreement of the NCC (a "compromise"), continue along the old CPR RoW (next to the Parkway) as far as Cleary, where it can make a fairly gentle transition to Richmond/Byron. Had we done some, ahem, planning, we could have arranged for that as part of the building of the Continental in exchange for more height, but since we don't actually plan in Ottawa until everything is already built, that particular opportunity slipped through our fingers. Anyway, the transition can still be done by either taking out the strip mall immediately east of Cleary OR going behind the Continental and taking out the old Harvey's (now a dentist's office) and the auto repair garage, just missing Kristy's Roadhouse.

Personally, I prefer the strip mall option because it too is destined to be turned into a condo tower, so the same sort of opportunity to get not just the route but a station too would exist.

As for a station further east to replace Dominion, it can be placed behind the Rogers building and the former RMOC offices (I'd call it "Kitchissippi" since it would be the only station to overlook the Ottawa River). It would be on its own for a bit of time, but given the condo craze in Westboro I think that would induce some redevelopment of that bit of wasted land (including the Rogers building with its large rear parking lot) immediately to the south and a better connection to Richmond Rd.

Quote:
- Sherbourne/Cleary
- New Orchard (these 2 could be combined into one station at Woodroffe, if necessary)
I'd keep them separate. New Orchard has quite a bit of stuff on its own to justify a station in its own right. Indeed, were it not for local NIMBYs in their condos nearby, there would be a station on the Parkway at New Orchard.
Quote:
- A Lincoln Fields with much improved access and integration (buildings over top!)
__________________
Ottawa's quasi-official motto: "It can't be done"
Ottawa's quasi-official ethos: "We have a process to follow"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4402  
Old Posted May 4, 2012, 5:55 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Blimey, we might have something approaching a consensus around here!

I agree completely with the above - you're dead on that if Carling gets the LRT line first, rapid transit service north of it would never improve. But I think things could actually get worse, and not just for people in Westboro.

Given that the TMP calls for the western LRT to go to Lincoln Fields (by whichever route) and then on to Baseline - but not Bayshore - there is going to be a big transferring problem at Lincoln Fields. People from Barrhaven will get first dibs on the train at Baseline, while their compatriots from Kanata will always be faced with fullish trains at Lincoln Fields (barring some kind of short-ending operating scenario along with infrastructure at Lincoln Fields to support it, namely a third track). Given that there are in fact more riders from Kanata than Barrhaven, this is a recipe for a lot of anger (Baseline apparently gets the LRT rather than Bayshore because *all day* ridership is higher to Baseline due to Algonquin College, whereas peak ridership is higher to Bayshore).

Now, imagine if you will a Carling LRT line, leaving the West Transitway from Dominion onwards still in place. All these Kanatans will be arriving at Lincoln Fields by bus and will be required to transfer to LRT going down Carling, all the while that the West Transitway - which they had been using up to the very day that LRT opened on Carling - remains available for use. How long do you suppose it would be before Kanatans and their politicians start demanding that their express buses be allowed to continue on as before? How long do you suppose that OC Transpo and Council could resist the political pressure? Before long we'd be back to a variant on the high cost system we have right now: BRT & LRT doing the same thing. Plans to rework Albert and Slater would also have to be shelved and chances are that buses from the Southeast Transitway and the abortive Hospital Link (whose riders would be facing a similar albeit less serious problem at Hurdman to those from Kanata at Lincoln Fields) would be through-routed with buses from Kanata to help "balance" things out downtown.

On the other hand, if you block off the West Transitway to buses by converting it to LRT, you instantly create pressure to do the right thing and extend a second LRT branch to Bayshore or Moodie, and with much of DND moving to the Moodie area, there would also be additional reverse flow ridership to justify the extension.
I definitely agree that an extension to Bayshore on a secondary branch is necessary at that stage, for the reasons mentioned.

1) Bayshore is a high-density residential area with significant all-day ridership. Forcing a transfer for the short distance (or a slow ride on Route 2) would be of little benefit given the high ridership. While all-day ridership is higher at Baseline on weekdays, it certainly is not on weekends - and even at midday, ridership is high at both locations.

2) Transfer issues at Lincoln Fields would be a major headache, especially in the morning rush hour when crowded trains would already be a problem for commuters coming from Kanata or Stittsville and forced to transfer into already packed trains (not to mention those originating at Bayshore). By locating their transfer at Bayshore, it would put them onto previously empty trains to start their trips, balancing crowds better. The only issue is in the westbound direction where some passengers may accidentally take the wrong train, but clear signage should minimize such.

3) It avoids having to build a Transitway at all from Pinecrest to Lincoln Fields, and allows use of bus lanes on Highway 417 until a train-specific tunnel can be built, resulting in cost savings for a short-term conversion.

4) It simplifies operations for Kanata and Stittsville-bound routes and eliminates a transfer to Bayshore for most passengers, and reduces transfers to other destinations. At all times of the day, the vast majority of passengers there are not internal, but are headed for Bayshore or beyond (mostly downtown) - interestingly, such is especially true outside peak periods due to local high schools and the Kanata North Business Park being the main service nodes there (terminating ridership at Terry Fox Station is very low due to the fact it is very pedestrian and transit-unfriendly in the area). The vast majority of passengers on local routes in Kanata are transferring, mostly to the 96 but some also to the 118, in order to get to in-town destinations.

5) It is true that extending to Moodie would help for DND passengers. However, until significant residential development takes place there (unlikely anytime soon), it would be of little benefit as it forces a transfer one stop from Kanata to Bayshore and the internal ridership would be extremely low at many times of day, especially evenings and weekends. Given the number of movements in the area, a separate, frequent (during peak periods) bus route would be more suitable until the LRT is extended to Kanata (long term).

IMO, Carling should not get any rail in the foreseeable future, but rather get bus lane treatment (i.e. in the 6-lane sections, convert the curb lane to bus-only and transit priority signals, and in the 4-lane sections, widen with a new bus-only lane), similar to, say, Baseline Road.

Median rail lanes on a surface street create a huge mess like the one created in Toronto on St. Clair Avenue, which was never designed for such. There are higher priorities (i.e. Bank Street, Montreal Road) for rail-based solutions which are necessitated due to the lack of any other suitable alternatives.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4403  
Old Posted May 4, 2012, 8:37 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,958
As long as;

a- it's not on the parkway

b-it stays a rapid transit service, and not a tram service
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4404  
Old Posted May 4, 2012, 10:56 PM
Cre47's Avatar
Cre47 Cre47 is offline
Awesome!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gatineau, QC
Posts: 1,659
So in my understanding from what I've heard in the news (TVA), Allan Hubley would vote against LRT if it doesn't go to the suburbs right now.
__________________
"However, the Leafs have not won the Cup since 1967, giving them the longest-active Cup drought in the NHL, and thus are the only Original Six team that has not won the Cup since the 1967 NHL expansion." Favorite phrase on the Toronto Maple Leafs Wikipedia page.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4405  
Old Posted May 4, 2012, 11:49 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
So in my understanding from what I've heard in the news (TVA), Allan Hubley would vote against LRT if it doesn't go to the suburbs right now.
Gloucester's a suburb, so we're good; even better if we make it to Nepean/Centrepointe in the first tranche, too.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4406  
Old Posted May 4, 2012, 11:55 PM
Cre47's Avatar
Cre47 Cre47 is offline
Awesome!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gatineau, QC
Posts: 1,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
Gloucester's a suburb, so we're good; even better if we make it to Nepean/Centrepointe in the first tranche, too.
From what I've understand, he meant like Kanata, Orleans and Barrhaven.

Also last week had heard a report about Gatineauès planning future. There was mention about possible rail to Buckingham, but I would guess it is going to be very range. Thought that politicians in Gatineau would be stick to buses only with their Rapibus.

Speaking of the Rapibus, lots of working on-going around the Montclair Blvd area and near the Casino. Might have already said it but the railway on Montclair was removed. Doesn't look like the roadway is paved just yet between the Casino and Montcalm.

Also on Montcalm they have partially reput the rail but on three of the four lanes of the roadway.
__________________
"However, the Leafs have not won the Cup since 1967, giving them the longest-active Cup drought in the NHL, and thus are the only Original Six team that has not won the Cup since the 1967 NHL expansion." Favorite phrase on the Toronto Maple Leafs Wikipedia page.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4407  
Old Posted May 5, 2012, 12:19 AM
Cre47's Avatar
Cre47 Cre47 is offline
Awesome!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gatineau, QC
Posts: 1,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinbottawa View Post
On the cover of the 24 hours today, they've miswrote Carling Ave and said Carleton Ave. Yikes!.

Another article from the Sun regarding businesses on Richmond Road in favor of the LRT.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/05/04/...y-bring-on-lrt

Now since Katherine Hobbs is in favor of LRT on Richmond and saying it is critical. Expected to be grilled by Ken Gray of course sometime in his blog.
__________________
"However, the Leafs have not won the Cup since 1967, giving them the longest-active Cup drought in the NHL, and thus are the only Original Six team that has not won the Cup since the 1967 NHL expansion." Favorite phrase on the Toronto Maple Leafs Wikipedia page.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4408  
Old Posted May 5, 2012, 12:31 AM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
From what I've understand, he meant like Kanata, Orleans and Barrhaven.
Yeah, I figured, and I was judt being kind of glib. For not entirely obtuse reasons, all of the inside-the-greenbelt suburbs got implicitly "urbanized" by amalgamation, so we get these sorts of weird vocabulary contradictions -- because really, there is no way to consider the Blair and Baseline termini as anything other than suburban, and yet with the current plan, we "don't have light rail going to the suburbs in our lifetimes" as an equally true statement. It's a paradox!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4409  
Old Posted May 5, 2012, 3:08 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
Yeah, I figured, and I was judt being kind of glib. For not entirely obtuse reasons, all of the inside-the-greenbelt suburbs got implicitly "urbanized" by amalgamation, so we get these sorts of weird vocabulary contradictions -- because really, there is no way to consider the Blair and Baseline termini as anything other than suburban, and yet with the current plan, we "don't have light rail going to the suburbs in our lifetimes" as an equally true statement. It's a paradox!
In many cases, densities are LOWER in the 1960s and 1970s era areas inside the Greenbelt than in large parts of Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4410  
Old Posted May 5, 2012, 4:21 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
In many cases, densities are LOWER in the 1960s and 1970s era areas inside the Greenbelt than in large parts of Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans.
Small houses on big lots. Canadian culture has changed a lot over the years.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4411  
Old Posted May 5, 2012, 4:53 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
In many cases, densities are LOWER in the 1960s and 1970s era areas inside the Greenbelt than in large parts of Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans.
I know, a paradox!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4412  
Old Posted May 5, 2012, 7:20 PM
S-Man S-Man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,469
You can add my voice to the consensus on running LRT down Byron. It's the only route that ever made sense, and they had planned all along for a secondary tram-type line for Carling, which should also exist.

Can't wait for Ken Gray to go on blindly about how running a new electric LRT line down an abandoned electric LRT corridor is INSANE, and how modern planners have it all wrong. Oh,and how Westboro was once a quiet place - you know, when he moved in, after they had torn out the rails and everyone had fled to the 'burbs.

History starts when Ken Gray moves in. Then he tries to freeze time through old codger-type bitching.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4413  
Old Posted May 5, 2012, 9:44 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,118
Anybody who believes that LRT will be delivered along Byron for $200 million or $80 million along the Ottawa River Parkway are kidding themselves. Just think of the cost of Baseline Station alone. Are we going to have level crossings at every intersection?

What we have been told is just confirmation of what we already knew, that Carling would be more expensive. This is not really news.

So, we don't put LRT on Carling does not mean that a tramway will ever be built as an alternative. The way things are going it is becoming clear that most of the current rapid transit plan will not be built by 2031. There will be no tramway on Carling, there will be no BRT on Baseline.

The problem with Byron is that it runs on the north fringe of the city. It is not central to the population. It provides good service from the west end to downtown, but it does not provide good service for anybody else crossing the city. The fact of the matter is that as congestion continues to get worse, cross-town bus service will also get worse and we will continue to limit our ability to redesign our cross-town arterials to make them more pedestrian friendly and promote intensification on those corridors.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4414  
Old Posted May 6, 2012, 3:28 AM
kevinbottawa kevinbottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
Now since Katherine Hobbs is in favor of LRT on Richmond and saying it is critical. Expected to be grilled by Ken Gray of course sometime in his blog.
Is Councillor Hobbs in favour of LRT on Richmond? In this article (http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/05/03/...mary-lrt-route) they quote her as saying, "My preference has always been the parkway...It's pretty and relaxing...Why shouldn't thousands of people get that view?...I appreciate the NCC's stance along the parkway. I just think it would be a better method for the sake of residents of Kitchissippi."
__________________
Ottawa needs a vibrant waterfront.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4415  
Old Posted May 6, 2012, 3:28 AM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Anybody who believes that LRT will be delivered along Byron for $200 million or $80 million along the Ottawa River Parkway are kidding themselves. Just think of the cost of Baseline Station alone. Are we going to have level crossings at every intersection?

What we have been told is just confirmation of what we already knew, that Carling would be more expensive. This is not really news.

So, we don't put LRT on Carling does not mean that a tramway will ever be built as an alternative. The way things are going it is becoming clear that most of the current rapid transit plan will not be built by 2031. There will be no tramway on Carling, there will be no BRT on Baseline.

The problem with Byron is that it runs on the north fringe of the city. It is not central to the population. It provides good service from the west end to downtown, but it does not provide good service for anybody else crossing the city. The fact of the matter is that as congestion continues to get worse, cross-town bus service will also get worse and we will continue to limit our ability to redesign our cross-town arterials to make them more pedestrian friendly and promote intensification on those corridors.

I'm guessing that the Byron corridor would likely come to 600-700 million (if it's 600 million for a 3 km subway downtown).

I agree that this won't serve the whole city as well as I would like because it's a suburban centric plan to get people from Kanata to downtown as fast and as cheaply as possible (commuter rail would have been a netter option if that was the goal).

I would like to eventually see a Carling tram to Lansdowne Park and a subway under Bank street turning under Rideau-Montreal to the old CFB Rockliffe. As much as it seems like some ridiculous dream that will never happen. Consider this;

We would end up with;
-LRT Baseline to Blair. Bayshore to Blair and Airport to downtown (30 km)
-Carling Tram (10 km)
-Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway (10 km)

So 40 km of rapid transit + 10 km tram

Suburbs and Eastern Ontario could be served with regional Go Transit style system, and then we can deal with the Québec side (convert Rapibus, extend under Hull's Laurier, across the river connecting to Rideau station and extend east to Blair via a new Aviation Parkway bridge).

So not counting Québec or the commuter rail, and assuming the city's estimates for the initial 12.5 km is correct, I estimate the cost for a complete inner greenbelt rapid transit to be around 7 billion dollars.

I know it sounds like an extremely expensive and impossible pipe dream, consider that Montreal's built 70 km of metro in 45 years and Vancouver built 68.7 km of Skytrain lines in only 25 years.

Oh, and how much money is the Ontario Gov' pouring in Toronto transit?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4416  
Old Posted May 6, 2012, 3:55 AM
Cre47's Avatar
Cre47 Cre47 is offline
Awesome!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gatineau, QC
Posts: 1,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinbottawa View Post
Is Councillor Hobbs in favour of LRT on Richmond? In this article (http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/05/03/...mary-lrt-route) they quote her as saying, "My preference has always been the parkway...It's pretty and relaxing...Why shouldn't thousands of people get that view?...I appreciate the NCC's stance along the parkway. I just think it would be a better method for the sake of residents of Kitchissippi."
And she says on that link having Richmond as the primary is a good thing transporation wise. A bit of contradiction by her part there???

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/05/04/...y-bring-on-lrt
__________________
"However, the Leafs have not won the Cup since 1967, giving them the longest-active Cup drought in the NHL, and thus are the only Original Six team that has not won the Cup since the 1967 NHL expansion." Favorite phrase on the Toronto Maple Leafs Wikipedia page.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4417  
Old Posted May 9, 2012, 9:49 PM
waterloowarrior's Avatar
waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 6,717
Watson on the Elgin St Station: Show me the money
http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/05/09/...n-st-lrt-mayor
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4418  
Old Posted May 9, 2012, 10:52 PM
jeremy_haak's Avatar
jeremy_haak jeremy_haak is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Posts: 2,933
I have to give credit to Gillin; he's actually pledged monetary support which is far more than pretty much anyone else I've heard. It's a bit surprising though, because I can't see the Lord Elgin benefitting *that* much from a nearby subway station.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4419  
Old Posted May 10, 2012, 12:45 AM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
I have to give credit to Gillin; he's actually pledged monetary support which is far more than pretty much anyone else I've heard. It's a bit surprising though, because I can't see the Lord Elgin benefitting *that* much from a nearby subway station.
Maybe he's actualy in it to better the city...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4420  
Old Posted May 10, 2012, 1:07 AM
bradnixon bradnixon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Watson on the Elgin St Station: Show me the money
http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/05/09/...n-st-lrt-mayor
Didn't he just say a couple weeks ago that there was no way, no how, even if it wasn't a money thing because it would slow down the trains too much?

It's too bad we can't have an adult discussion about this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:42 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.