HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum

Since 1999, the SkyscraperPage Forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web. The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics. Welcome!

You are currently browsing as a guest. Register with the SkyscraperPage Forum and join this growing community of skyscraper enthusiasts. Registering has benefits such as fewer ads, the ability to post messages, private messaging and more.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #4481  
Old Posted May 15, 2012, 11:00 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
You would never run it in true 'mixed' traffic but I know what you are saying. What should have happened is that you run the trains in an exclusive left lane and the buses in an exclusive right lane. The bus lane would only be exclusive during peak periods. Local traffic would use the remaining lanes. You would simply close the MacKenzie King bridge to regular traffic. It isn't used much anyways except for transit and you have two other bridges close by that are better used.

Now that we know that this will be the busiest LRT system in North America from day one, the original plan of having surface rail on Albert and Slater would have taken the pressure off a tunnel that is going beyond normal useage. There will be problems with the tunnel. It is inevitable. And how do we move people when there are problems? We won't. There is so little redundancy built into the plan that moving people will be next to impossible if a train breaks down on the LRT line. Don't kid yourself. It is going to happen.

As someone living in the south end, why should we be penalized with second class service and forced permanently to transfer either at Hurdman or Bayview? I know this is the way things appear to be going, but how will this make transit attractive particularly during off-peak hours? As it stands, neither route is a direct route towards downtown (look at a map) and both will require two transfers to reach a local neighbourhood. I can tell that this is not appealing in the least. Why would I use transit for my occasional trips downtown unless I expect problems finding parking? I won't. This plan will be too slow and too unreliable. Two transfers and then find out that you missed your local bus by 1 minute. No way. This is a prescription for permanently low ridership.
That's why they would have needed the tunnel (or an elevated corridor) from day one, and run crossover movements when extensions east and west are built. If they had planned the north-south with the tunnel, that would have been a perfect proposal IMO, with easy extensions east and west (and southeast).

One of the big mistakes of the current proposal (and it is not too late to change it) is that there is no connectivity with the Southeast Transitway. The major problem mentioned was - no surprise - the NCC and their lands (which they don't have no plan for, and even if the alignment was skewed, the current BRT station becomes available). Another possibility is a two-level train station setup with the junction west of Hurdman in the end (with separate in-station platforms) or a V-shaped station.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4482  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 12:21 AM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post

I don't like STF's either. So let's get rid of the damn cars.
To get rid of the cars, you need good rapid transit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post


First step: extend the damn O-train to Hull.
Too many transfers for Gatineau residents (local to Rapibus, Rapibus to O-train, O-Train to OLRT), unless we convert Ripibus or convert POW to bus.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4483  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 12:36 AM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
You would never run it in true 'mixed' traffic but I know what you are saying. What should have happened is that you run the trains in an exclusive left lane and the buses in an exclusive right lane.
Unfortunately, that wasn't the final plan that was approved for the N-S LRT (oddly, it was eliminated as an option early on). Instead, we would have had buses and trains sharing the second lane out, with bus bays and light rail platforms in the right curb lane, meaning that buses would not only be sharing the same lane as the trains but would also be turning in and out of that lane. A knock-on side effect of this design decision is that the BRT platforms, which are currently built as bulb-outs in the first lane allowing place for passengers to sort of organize themselves, would instead be pushed back into the sidewalks (generally speaking, the current BRT platforms would be converted to LRT platforms while the intervening spaces in other blocks that are currently loading/parking zones would have become bus bays). The net effect of this would be to increase dwell times.

On top of all that, the LRT platforms were only going to be two cars long so even if someone decided to extend the track down to Hurdman and remove the buses, we'd soon run out of train capacity and fixing that problem would not be easy since the planning had not considered future platform lengthening.

Quote:
Now that we know that this will be the busiest LRT system in North America from day one, the original plan of having surface rail on Albert and Slater would have taken the pressure off a tunnel that is going beyond normal useage.
We might become the busiest LRT system in North America, but I have my doubts. I'm pretty sure that Calgary's CTrain is already operating at a higher capacity than the Transitway in peak periods, and that's before the West LRT line opens up early next year and it's before Calgary starts running 4-car trains.

Ridership growth is on Calgary's side, both in terms of population and employment growth (relative and absolute) as well as the fact that since ridership per capita is lower in Calgary it has more "room" to grow faster than in Ottawa (i.e. it can "catch up"), resulting in more riders in absolute terms. We'll probably retain a lead in ridership per capita for some time, if not indefinitely - and as it is, Calgary is in fact ahead of Vancouver so for a smaller city to have higher ridership per capita is quite possible.

For these reasons, I expect that by the time Ottawa finally gets around to operating LRT downtown, Calgary will be well ahead of us in absolute numbers and there's little chance we'll ever exceed them again once they do get past us.

Quote:
As someone living in the south end, why should we be penalized with second class service and forced permanently to transfer either at Hurdman or Bayview?
People in Kanata can fairly ask the same question: as things stand right now, they will be getting second class service compared to their fellow suburbanites from Nepean once the West LRT is built. Worse still for them compared to those from the south end, Kanatans actually outnumber Nepeanites in transit volumes so the decision to favour Nepean is not even "fair" on a pure numbers game, which at least it is for southerners versus easterners.

Quote:
I know this is the way things appear to be going, but how will this make transit attractive particularly during off-peak hours? As it stands, neither route is a direct route towards downtown (look at a map) and both will require two transfers to reach a local neighbourhood. I can tell that this is not appealing in the least. Why would I use transit for my occasional trips downtown unless I expect problems finding parking? I won't. This plan will be too slow and too unreliable. Two transfers and then find out that you missed your local bus by 1 minute. No way. This is a prescription for permanently low ridership.
I agree there - the Southeast Transitway should be slated for conversion, and provision made at Hurdman to facilitate it. In the longer term, the western approach to downtown will be busier than the eastern approach due to the fact that Kanata and Barrhaven are growing faster than Orleans, so adding people from the south (as nominally planned) over the long term is sheer folly - and that's before we deal with people from Gatineau.
__________________
Ottawa's quasi-official motto: "It can't be done"
Ottawa's quasi-official ethos: "We have a process to follow"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4484  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 1:34 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,303
Quote:
We might become the busiest LRT system in North America, but I have my doubts.
I guess time will tell but Calgary does operate two routes while we will only have one. Our ridership will concentrated on only one rail line. We are also moving a greater percentage of our ridership onto LRT. With the exception of central neighbourhoods, all downtown ridership will be forced onto LRT. Calgary still maintains direct service to the north central and south east part of the city and the west end until the Western LRT is opened. Per capita ridership is lower in Calgary because Calgary Transit is not effective in moving people except to downtown. This is the flaw in moving so much towards a hub and spoke set up. It creates too many transfers when you destination is not on the hub route.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4485  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 1:43 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,303
Quote:
so adding people from the south (as nominally planned) over the long term is sheer folly
And this is exactly why a surface route connected to the south would have been useful. You avoid getting this glut of passengers whether at Bayview or Hurdman. It is going to be a problem either way. We ultimately need more than one rail route through downtown. It is absolutely necessary to get STO buses out of downtown. More than one downtown rail lines is the plan in Calgary. It is the plan in Edmonton. It already exists in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4486  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 2:14 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,615
About the western situation, the easiest answer (and my preferred answer) is to extend to Bayshore at the same time as Baseline. Ridership would be better balanced out as both those from the southwest and west would start on an empty train rather than crowding a half-full or full train; a very high-density area and major trip generator would be served and it would simplify things BIG TIME for Kanata and Stittsville routes - reducing transfers for the vast majority of passengers in the area at all times of day. I estimate at least 80% of trips starting or ending in Kanata and Stittsville leave that area, mostly on Route 96 (some on Route 118), even during off-peak periods, and those destined to (or transferring at) Bayshore have a direct trip there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4487  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 3:00 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
To get rid of the cars, you need good rapid transit.
I was being facetious.

Quote:
Too many transfers for Gatineau residents (local to Rapibus, Rapibus to O-train, O-Train to OLRT), unless we convert Ripibus or convert POW to bus.
Depends on who is travelling from where to where. Even a modest extension to Hull would eliminate transfers for a good number of trips, esp. for fedgov workers in the Big Ugly Buildings who live near the O-Train on the Ottawa side.

No transit system can eliminate all transfers for all trips, but a transit system that never expands is never going to eliminate any for any.

O-Train to Hull. Choo-choo.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4488  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 3:15 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
I was being facetious.



Depends on who is travelling from where to where. Even a modest extension to Hull would eliminate transfers for a good number of trips, esp. for fedgov workers in the Big Ugly Buildings who live near the O-Train on the Ottawa side.

No transit system can eliminate all transfers for all trips, but a transit system that never expands is never going to eliminate any for any.

O-Train to Hull. Choo-choo.
Yes, an O-Train to Hull would:

* Reduce transfers from the south end to those buildings, and significantly shorten travel time (as well as improve transfers to STO)

* Reduce transfers and significantly shorten travel time for MANY employees that live in Gatineau and work at Confederation Heights

* Reduce transfers from Carleton University for students living in Gatineau
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4489  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 2:21 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,303
http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/05/15/...on-plan-revamp


Quote:
Costs could force transportation plan revamp


By Jon Willing,Ottawa Sun

First posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 05:37 PM EDT | Updated: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 09:41 PM EDT

The city's planning department has offered a window to what could come out of a review of Ottawa's transportation master plan, which might be too ambitious for today's economy.

A work plan for the review won't go to the transportation committee until June 6, but a new report for the planning committee published Tuesday suggests "there is a likelihood" that not all the projects in the transportation master plan can be completed by 2031 as currently set out in the document.

"Consequently, there is a need for an affordability analysis for all projects and services identified within the planning horizon," the report says. "This will also include a review of the capital and operating costs of various transportation modes and their impacts on the tax rate for the provision of these services."

The 2008 transportation master plan is the city's chief blueprint for moving people around the city until 2031. It was written with the expectation that Ottawa's population will be 1.14 million by that year. The document explains what infrastructure should be built, when it should be built and what the budget implications are.

About $8.3 billion worth of specific public transit, cycling, pedestrian path and road projects are recommended in the plan.

It appears the city is trying to come up with solutions that could be implemented sooner rather than waiting another two decades.

"Where possible, the review will identify interim solutions, such as extension of the O-Train in advance of implementing north-south light rail transit to provide progress towards the desired end-state result," the planning report says.

The city is also updating its official plan and infrastructure master plan. All three reviews will run concurrently.

The planning committee meets next Tuesday.

jon.willing@sunmedia.ca

Twitter: @JonathanWilling
Surprise, surprise, the 2008 Transportation Master Plan was a pipe dream. The question becomes, how little will be built? I expect all the secondary transit routes will be chopped since the main East-West LRT is going to blow the entire budget for the next 20 years. You may see a train in Orleans in the year 2500 and Kanata in 3000.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4490  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 2:25 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Yes, an O-Train to Hull would:

* Reduce transfers from the south end to those buildings, and significantly shorten travel time (as well as improve transfers to STO)

* Reduce transfers and significantly shorten travel time for MANY employees that live in Gatineau and work at Confederation Heights

* Reduce transfers from Carleton University for students living in Gatineau
* Would be empty most of the time

* serve few students from Gatineau because Carleton is an English only University
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4491  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 3:22 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
* Would be empty most of the time

* serve few students from Gatineau because Carleton is an English only University
It would take a few years, but I predict that you would see more and more Carleton students attracted by the cheap rents, fast reliable train trips and lower drinking age choosing housing in Gatineau if the O-Train was extended, the same way many Carleton students are currently choosing to live in the South Keys/HuntClub areas, which was unthinkable in my undergrad days.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4492  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 4:36 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
It would take a few years, but I predict that you would see more and more Carleton students attracted by the cheap rents, fast reliable train trips and lower drinking age choosing housing in Gatineau if the O-Train was extended, the same way many Carleton students are currently choosing to live in the South Keys/HuntClub areas, which was unthinkable in my undergrad days.
Only if the O-Train replaced Rapid Bus, otherwise it would only serve the government buildings.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4493  
Old Posted May 16, 2012, 5:06 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Only if the O-Train replaced Rapid Bus, otherwise it would only serve the government buildings.
Doesn't have to, even if the O-Train ran just one stop towards Térasses de la Chaudière, there's a fair bit of residential that could be potential student housing within a kilometre of Montcalme and Taché
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4494  
Old Posted May 17, 2012, 5:24 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
* Would be empty most of the time
That's what a lot of naysayers said about the existing O-train.

Quote:
* serve few students from Gatineau because Carleton is an English only University
A) You'd be surprise how many Quebecers and francos go to Carleton, and

B) Inducement. You make it easy to get from low-rent Hull to Carleton, and, voilà, low-rent parts of Hull become more student-y.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4495  
Old Posted May 17, 2012, 1:32 PM
toaster toaster is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
It would take a few years, but I predict that you would see more and more Carleton students attracted by the cheap rents, fast reliable train trips and lower drinking age choosing housing in Gatineau if the O-Train was extended, the same way many Carleton students are currently choosing to live in the South Keys/HuntClub areas, which was unthinkable in my undergrad days.
Tell me again why Ottawa should spend hundreds of millions to make it easier for people who work and go to school in Ottawa to live (and pay taxes, eat, shop, etc) in Gatineau.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4496  
Old Posted May 17, 2012, 2:22 PM
Ottawan Ottawan is offline
Citizen-at-large
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Expat (in Toronto)
Posts: 737
Quote:
Originally Posted by toaster View Post
Tell me again why Ottawa should spend hundreds of millions to make it easier for people who work and go to school in Ottawa to live (and pay taxes, eat, shop, etc) in Gatineau.
1) It would not cost hundreds of millions to do this extension.
2) It would make the overall transit system more efficient by shortening commutes, and having people live on the high-capacity corridors, thereby saving money for Ottawa.
3) It would raise the rental rates/prices in Hull, which would have spin-off effects that are difficult to predict, and could result in different demographics choosing to live in Ontario offsetting the students that move over there.
4) It would revitalize downtown Gatineau, and I do not see why we should be playing shell games with our neighbours. What is good for downtown Ottawa is good for downtown Gatineau, and vice versa.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4497  
Old Posted May 17, 2012, 2:28 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by toaster View Post
Tell me again why Ottawa should spend hundreds of millions to make it easier for people who work and go to school in Ottawa to live (and pay taxes, eat, shop, etc) in Gatineau.
This is a worrisome way of thinking. Ottawa-Gatineau is in reality one city, one metropolitan area and the political divide is an artificial creation of the provinces. Our transportation infrastructure should reflect real needs to move people and not be clouded by politics. This same sort of thinking is why it is so hard to get a new badly needed bridge built across the Ottawa River. Politics have ghettoized this city like no other in the country and we don't need to add to this by not providing adequate transportation infrastructure across the Ottawa River.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4498  
Old Posted May 17, 2012, 2:29 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by toaster View Post
Tell me again why Ottawa should spend hundreds of millions to make it easier for people who work and go to school in Ottawa to live (and pay taxes, eat, shop, etc) in Gatineau.
Like Ottawan said, and also because those students I was talking about were more for balancing load/usage in both directions throughout the day, the primary beneficiaries would still be for people living along the O-Train corridor and in the South End commuting to Gatineau (I know a few poor sadistic types who live in Hunt Club and commute to Gatineau everyday, when everything about our road and transit networks make that among the most difficult commutes in the region!)

Last edited by McC; May 17, 2012 at 6:10 PM. Reason: grammar, QFT by eternallyme below
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4499  
Old Posted May 17, 2012, 5:23 PM
bikegypsy's Avatar
bikegypsy bikegypsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
* Would be empty most of the time

* serve few students from Gatineau because Carleton is an English only University
Most Francophones are bilingual. I know several of them who went to Carleton U.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4500  
Old Posted May 17, 2012, 5:33 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
Like Ottawan said, and also because those students I was talking about were more for balancing load/usage in both directions throughout the day, the primary beneficiaries would still be people for living along the O-Train corridor and in the South End commuting to Gatineau (I know a few poor sadistic types who live in Hunt Club and commute to Gatineau everyday when everything about our road and transit networks make that among the most difficult commutes in the region!)
Not to mention that a large number of people live in Gatineau and work in Ottawa outside downtown, especially Confederation Heights - the time savings would mean not only fewer transfers and a much shorter transit trip, but it would be even quicker than by car to go from downtown Gatineau to Confederation! The fact it could easily connect DIRECTLY to Rapibus (without having to send those buses into Ottawa) would be a HUGE advantage. That would mean far fewer buses having to cross the rivers during peak periods.

All that would be necessary would be a rehabbing of the Prince of Wales Bridge, a passing track on Lemieux Island and a station most likely at the end of the stub track at Montcalm/Tache.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
   
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > SSP: Local Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:33 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.