HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum.

Since 1999, SkyscraperPage.com's forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web.  The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics.  SkyscraperPage.com also features unique skyscraper diagrams, a database of construction activity, and publishes popular skyscraper posters.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 1:52 PM
Private Dick's Avatar
Private Dick Private Dick is online now
Mal Vivant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: D.C.
Posts: 1,911
LA becomes largest US city to ban plastic bags

LA becomes largest US city to ban plastic bags

By Adrian Martinez
Published May 24, 2012

http://www.greenbiz.com/blog/2012/05...n-plastic-bags

This is a great day for the City of Los Angeles. The Los Angeles City Council just adopted a policy framework for banning single-use plastic bags. This makes it the largest city in the nation to adopt a policy to move toward removing these bags from our environment. As I wrote yesterday in my blog, the environmental and economic problems with these bags far outweigh any limited benefit they may have. Thus, the City Council made the right move in sending the city on its way to banning them in Los Angeles.

In developing this landmark program, the City Council took a measured and reasoned approach. The framework includes a six-month educational period of the ordinance where no ban is in place. After that initial six months, larger stores must phase out single use plastic bags. Twelve months after adoption of the final ordinance, small stores will also ban these bags. For paper bags, retailers will be required to charge 10 cents per bag starting one year from today. In two years, a study will assess whether to ban outright paper bags as well.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 2:15 PM
chubbydecker chubbydecker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 172
now if they could only ban plastic people!
__________________
soup is good food!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 2:53 PM
kingkirbythe....'s Avatar
kingkirbythe.... kingkirbythe.... is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 297
About time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 2:54 PM
Private Dick's Avatar
Private Dick Private Dick is online now
Mal Vivant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: D.C.
Posts: 1,911
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubbydecker View Post
now if they could only ban plastic people!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 3:15 PM
mind field's Avatar
mind field mind field is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The mitten state
Posts: 1,123
Great job los angeles, showing your progressiveness!
__________________
www.zeitgeistmovie.com
Last hour of the addendum explains how a resource based economy would revolutionize modern living and end many of society's problems.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 3:36 PM
emathias's Avatar
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,959
Only morons support this moronic trend.

Plastic bag bans are one of the most stupid, short-sighted, naively anti-pedestrian things in play right now.

"We can't stop cars, so lets stop some small thing that doesn't really have lobbyists and is completely meaningless change"

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Typical urban consumer A:

Drives to the grocery store using a 2-ton vehicle that required enormous energy to produce and far more energy to drive than a few plastic bags require.

Typcal lurban consumer B:

Doesn't own a car, thereby saving thousands of pounds of oil from being expended, walks to get groceries, saving fuel. Because he is walking and not driving, doesn't like having to carry around re-usable bags because it's inconvenient to have to carry them around, especially when it's warm out. Likes the so-called one-use plastic bags because they're stronger than paper, they don't dissolve in if it rains before he gets home, and he re-uses them as small trash-can liners or to carry paper things in the rain, or many other purposes (i.e. they're NOT "single-use" to him).

Which consumer is better for the environment? Which consumer does this STUPID law hurt the most? Only suburban idiots who DRIVE everywhere think that banning plastic bags is smart. Not being able to get a plastic bag to take stuff home when you're a pedestrian is just one more reason to buy a car.

This sort of nonsense really makes me swear like a sailor. SUV drivers telling people who don't even own cars that they can't have a plastic bag to carry home their groceries is SICKENINGLY OFFENSIVELY MORONIC.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 3:50 PM
mhays mhays is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,513
Those are good points emathias. Especially the bit about our focus on easy stuff that doesn't have constituencies, vs. stuff like cars that do. (Though the plastic bag industry has a big lobby and is fighting stuff like this hard.)

Since paper bags are also problematic, I'd favor a rule where a paper bag is 5c and a plastic one is 10c. You can have a bag, but it costs something, but something minimal.

And yes, walking is a hell of a lot more beneficial. But I'd still love to crack down on people who use a bag for every lunch rather than just carrying the freaking to-go box, or use 16 bags every time they buy groceries.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 3:56 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubbydecker View Post
now if they could only ban plastic people!
Would be much more meaningful for the environment.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 3:57 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 560
Not sure if people know this, but you can recycle those bags at most grocers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 3:59 PM
Private Dick's Avatar
Private Dick Private Dick is online now
Mal Vivant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: D.C.
Posts: 1,911
The energy used to make about 9 plastic bags is equivalent to the energy it takes to drive a car one kilometer.

National Academy of Sciences, 2010
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 4:02 PM
Private Dick's Avatar
Private Dick Private Dick is online now
Mal Vivant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: D.C.
Posts: 1,911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlajos View Post
Not sure if people know this, but you can recycle those bags at most grocers.
Well... you can put them in a bin there. LDPE bags are not cost-effective to recycle and over 90% collected go to landfills anyway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 4:28 PM
202_Cyclist's Avatar
202_Cyclist 202_Cyclist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,031
DC has had a plastic bag fee for about two and a half years now. Before this was implemented, opponents were predicting it would lead to a huge exodus of jobs, residents would move to Virginia because they have to pay five cents for a plastic bag or even worse, people would spontaneously start speaking French. Suffice to say, none of these fears have been realized. The five cent plastic bag fee, on the other hand, resulted in a significant reduction in the number of bags: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dc/...0_but_far.html .

"In its first assessment of how the new law is working, the D.C. Office of Tax and Revenue estimates that city food and grocery establishments issued about 3.3 million bags in January, which suggests a remarkable decrease. Prior to the bag tax taking effect Jan 1, the Office of the Chief Financial Officer had estimated that about 22.5 million bags were being issued per month in 2009..."

In the two and a half years since the bag fee was implemented, I think I have paid maybe fifty cents or one dollar total for all of the plastic bags I've used. It is really not difficult to: 1) bring reusable bags, 2) put a couple of items in a messanger bag or backpack, 3) carry one or two items. If none of those seem to work, I don't mind paying a big nickel for a plastic bag, with the revenue going (hopefully) to clean up the Anacostia river.

There are, what, more than seven billion people on this planet of ours. It is well past time that we stop using something like a shopping bag only once and then throw it out.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 5:08 PM
jaxg8r1 jaxg8r1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,429
Yeah, this isn't a problem in Portland. I walk in the rain constantly, I just ask them to double up the paper bags and its not a problem. Then when I get home I have two bags that I can use as garbage bags, etc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 5:47 PM
Boquillas's Avatar
Boquillas Boquillas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 80221
Posts: 1,304
Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Plastic bag bans are one of the most stupid, short-sighted, naively anti-pedestrian things in play right now.

"We can't stop cars, so lets stop some small thing that doesn't really have lobbyists and is completely meaningless change"

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Typical urban consumer A:

Drives to the grocery store using a 2-ton vehicle that required enormous energy to produce and far more energy to drive than a few plastic bags require.

Typcal lurban consumer B:

Doesn't own a car, thereby saving thousands of pounds of oil from being expended, walks to get groceries, saving fuel. Because he is walking and not driving, doesn't like having to carry around re-usable bags because it's inconvenient to have to carry them around, especially when it's warm out. Likes the so-called one-use plastic bags because they're stronger than paper, they don't dissolve in if it rains before he gets home, and he re-uses them as small trash-can liners or to carry paper things in the rain, or many other purposes (i.e. they're NOT "single-use" to him).

Which consumer is better for the environment? Which consumer does this STUPID law hurt the most? Only suburban idiots who DRIVE everywhere think that banning plastic bags is smart. Not being able to get a plastic bag to take stuff home when you're a pedestrian is just one more reason to buy a car.

This sort of nonsense really makes me swear like a sailor. SUV drivers telling people who don't even own cars that they can't have a plastic bag to carry home their groceries is SICKENINGLY OFFENSIVELY MORONIC.
Man, I don't even know where to begin with this.

First, I'm absolutely SHOCKED that you think eliminating plastic bags is "completely meaningless change." What are you talking about? Plastic bags suck, for thousands of reasons. I'm not going to get into them here, but they're easy to find.

Second, if you're walking to get your groceries, how does it hurt you to carry a few reusable bags? They fit inside one another (and you're probably not going to carry more than 2-4 full bags home with you anyway) and many snap together or fit over your shoulder, or fold up and fit in your pocket. Plenty of pedestrians do this. Your complaint sounds personal, because this policy doesn't seem to be targeting pedestrians in any way shape or form. "But I use plastic bags, and I'm an eco-conscious pedestrian, so they can't be bad!"

It's not a panacea policy intended to fix all ills. It's one step toward reducing wasteful consumption. Getting gas-guzzlers off the road and encouraging a less car-dependent lifestyle is still a goal. You have falsely painted this as some sort of ridiculous either-or scenario.

People keep forgetting the first of the three Rs is "Reduce!" Then reuse, THEN recycle.

It sounds like you need to be the change you want to see, instead of shoveling the blame everywhere but your own trough.
__________________
"Inspiration is for amateurs; the rest of us just show up and get to work." -Chuck Close

Flickr Blog Site
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 7:02 PM
J. Will J. Will is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,885
In Toronto plastic bags cost five cents, and are displayed seperately on your receipt. I always bring my reusable bag if I'm planning on going grocery shopping, but something I might be at the other end of the neighbourhood, and might want to stop in at the grocer there (they have some different items than the one right by my house), so I'll end up getting plastic bags.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 7:15 PM
pesto pesto is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
The energy used to make about 9 plastic bags is equivalent to the energy it takes to drive a car one kilometer.

National Academy of Sciences, 2010
Aren't these sold for about 1000 for $2 when you buy in mass? Assuming this includes a profit margin, the cost of production of 9 is almost too small to calculate.

Did you make this up or did the NAS?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 7:36 PM
emathias's Avatar
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Will View Post
In Toronto plastic bags cost five cents, and are displayed seperately on your receipt. I always bring my reusable bag if I'm planning on going grocery shopping, but something I might be at the other end of the neighbourhood, and might want to stop in at the grocer there (they have some different items than the one right by my house), so I'll end up getting plastic bags.
This is perfectly acceptable to me. Paying for something I receive isn't a problem, so being charged a few cents - up to a quarter, really - for a plastic bag doesn't bother me at all.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 7:48 PM
emathias's Avatar
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boquillas View Post
...
Second, if you're walking to get your groceries, how does it hurt you to carry a few reusable bags? They fit inside one another (and you're probably not going to carry more than 2-4 full bags home with you anyway) and many snap together or fit over your shoulder, or fold up and fit in your pocket. Plenty of pedestrians do this. Your complaint sounds personal, because this policy doesn't seem to be targeting pedestrians in any way shape or form. "But I use plastic bags, and I'm an eco-conscious pedestrian, so they can't be bad!"

It's not a panacea policy intended to fix all ills. It's one step toward reducing wasteful consumption. Getting gas-guzzlers off the road and encouraging a less car-dependent lifestyle is still a goal. You have falsely painted this as some sort of ridiculous either-or scenario.

People keep forgetting the first of the three Rs is "Reduce!" Then reuse, THEN recycle.

It sounds like you need to be the change you want to see, instead of shoveling the blame everywhere but your own trough.
I take it you're one of those naive hippies who thinks everyone is some young kid who wears jeans and sneakers everywhere and can carry around extraneous crap on the off chance they need to buy something, or has time to go home and get bags just to get a few groceries. You've got a narrow view of the world then, buddy. Plenty of us real people need to do real work and make real contributions to the world and don't really appreciate being told that small conveniences that make life easier and have very little real impact (I've read the anecdotes and the sob stories and, frankly, they're overblown and compared to other, bigger, more important issues, are NOT where we need to be focusing efforts).

And you're right, is IS personal. VERY PERSONAL, to be told that MY small choices are somehow worse than other peoples large choices. That's bull. You could fit every plastic bag I've ever used in the trunk of a car. I know this because I have about 10 years worth of plastic bags in my kitchen and they take up about the same space as one piece of luggage. Next time I move, if I haven't used them for some other purpose, I will recycle them - many of them are recyclable.

As I commented on another post, charge me for them. Hell, do what states do for aluminum cans, and put a deposit on them. If you put a 5 or 10 cent deposit on them, people would either bring them back, or you'd have an army of children and homeless people picking them up and turning them in to keep them out of landfills and trees. The returns could be recycled or disposed of safely.

I'll take the bags issue as something other than a personal attack when we start charging luxury car owners appropriate taxes. When we start charging appropriate taxes on people who live in extra large houses that require obscene amounts of extra energy to construct and then to cool and/or heat. People who have lawns in desert climates, etc, etc.

Yes, it's not "either-or," but most of those aren't even conveniences - they're luxuries. Luxuries have no real utility. A plastic bag has utility.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 8:05 PM
Reverberation's Avatar
Reverberation Reverberation is online now
disorient yourself?
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Whangamata
Posts: 2,831
I prefer plastic bags over paper or those crappy canvas ones. They double as small trash bags, lunch bags, doggie bags (for those who need to scoop), laundry bags on vacations, among other things. Suppose you buy ice cream and it melts, or some eggs break, or your milk leaks. Will a canvas bag contain the mess? Has it occurred to anyone that there may be a bacterial/sanitary issue with re-using bags without running them through the laundry? Will fruit still be held in the plastic bags that they give you in the produce section?

The only thing "progressive" about progressives in places like LA is that they are always progressively coming up with new things that you are doing wrong and trying to save you from them, regardless of how little difference it makes. Thanks to progressives, citizens of Los Angeles are no longer free to choose how they will carry their groceries home.
__________________
RT60
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 9:39 PM
edluva's Avatar
edluva edluva is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,974
Hate to sound like an ass but if you anti bag ban people had been raised near a major ocean (texans won't count bc they can give a shit about anything environmental big or small) you might feel differently about the significance of this ban.

And I suppose emathias feels that suddenly imposing major penalties on cars in a recession stricken car dependent nation would be more productive because of his "personal" stake in this? You don't by chance think this is solely about land fills do you? What myopia
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:37 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.