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Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > SSP: Local Vancouver > Sports & Outdoor Recreation

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  #1  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 8:29 AM
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Petition: Bring the NBA back to Vancouver

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  #2  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 5:10 PM
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I'm down for season tickets if and when it happens, but I won't hold my breath.
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  #3  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 5:35 PM
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We need to get this movement going!
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  #4  
Old Posted May 30, 2012, 5:39 PM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Awesome idea, I'm in.
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  #5  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 6:52 AM
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With Steve Nash and his recent injuries, I wonder if once he does retire, he'll be a part of why the NBA does make it's eventual return to this beautiful city.

Could there be an Aquilini and Nash effort to bringing an NBA franchise back to Van?
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  #6  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:06 AM
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As if it weren't bad enough if the NBA came back, but Aquilini as the owner too?

You do know that Nash has a business/personal relationship with Kerfoot and there was some tension with Aquilini during the MLS expansion process. I'd be pretty shocked if the two formed a relationship.
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  #7  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:17 AM
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Exactly, Nash will just spend more time on the Whitecaps and Team Canada
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  #8  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 8:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
As if it weren't bad enough if the NBA came back, but Aquilini as the owner too?

You do know that Nash has a business/personal relationship with Kerfoot and there was some tension with Aquilini during the MLS expansion process. I'd be pretty shocked if the two formed a relationship.
Yeah. Was just wondering, cause there was an article in the VS, that said that Nash wouldn't rule out being a part of an ownership team bringing the NBA back to Van. I'd love it for pro basketball to come to the city. Why not? I've always been an encourager for more pro sports in the city - and not just hockey - especially when the team isn't doing so well right now, would be nice to have other pro sports here in THIS city to talk about.
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  #9  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:32 PM
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Lokk at Toronto. Americans who end up playing in Canada will lay down, so the Raptors have virtually no chance to win a championship. Why would we want that here again? Bring MLB.
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 8:19 PM
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Yeah player attitudes ruined any desire I have to have NBA back. So concerned with taxes/endorsements/celebrity, like they don't still make enough for their grandchildren to spend to their heart's content without ever working.

In the NHL you rarely see that garbage with players, even in Edmonton/Winnipeg.
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  #11  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 8:20 PM
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Baseball please.
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Lokk at Toronto. Americans who end up playing in Canada will lay down, so the Raptors have virtually no chance to win a championship. Why would we want that here again? Bring MLB.
I think perspective on players is slowly changing, and the cultural landscape is changing too. When the Grizz came to town back in '95, a lot of the players were ignorant beyond the USA. Now, you've got a league where more and more international players from all over the world are coming and playing in the best basketball league in the world.

I know that NBA players had their attitude issues, but if given the chance to return, I think many would love to play and live here. Personally, I've always been supportive of this city to have more pro sports teams - we've got three (kind of) - NHL, MLS, CFL. Would love to add the NBA to that list, and maybe down the road (far down the road) - the MLB. Wouldn't that be fantastic to have that many sports franchises in our city, and to enjoy pro sports year round? That'd be cool.

Sometimes I envy Toronto. I know a lot of their teams haven't been very good, but at least they've got sports to discuss (their own teams) - Blue Jays in the Summer, Raptors/Leafs in the winter seasons, CFL talk too (for CFL fans in that city).

Personally, I'd welcome the NBA back, if Nash would be a part of a team that would bring it back. I think if the league is coming back, it'll be because of Nash being involved. He believes in this city, and it's market.

Edit: I think the NBA is a lot closer in returning than MLB coming into this market. Can't see MLB for a long, long, long time.
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  #13  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 10:24 PM
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I've written about this several times on this forum over the past 5 years or so, but strictly from a business case perspective, the NBA returning to Vancouver will happen LONG before we ever have an MLB franchise here (ie. notwithstanding each league's current and future positions about expansion, relocation, etc)

I say this as a baseball fan with little interest in basketball.

You can argue either way about the NBA, but anyone who thinks Vancouver can make a case for 2,500,000+ in attendance for MLB level baseball in this city is dreaming.
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  #14  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2013, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by phesto View Post

but anyone who thinks Vancouver can make a case for 2,500,000+ in attendance for MLB level baseball in this city is dreaming.
Why is that?

Vancouver (which grows by the day) already has a larger metro population than Kansas City, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Cleavland, and Pittsburgh. Vancouver is also statistically tied with Denver and is projected to overtake Baltimore in less than four years and St. Petersburg in less than five years.

So, in terms of population, Vancouver is already superior to five MLB cities, and will be superior to eight MLB cities in just a few years.

MLB may never come to Vancouver. But it certainly has the population size to support it.
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  #15  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2013, 1:27 AM
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Small market teams in baseball never win anything. Do we really want that?
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  #16  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2013, 1:31 AM
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wouldn't another stadium need to be built to house an MLB team?

NBA is definitely on the radar but I don't think it will happen any time soon.
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  #17  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2013, 1:33 AM
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Americans actually like to watch baseball, most people in Vancouver could care less.
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  #18  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2013, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Why is that?

Vancouver (which grows by the day) already has a larger metro population than Kansas City, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Cleavland, and Pittsburgh. Vancouver is also statistically tied with Denver and is projected to overtake Baltimore in less than four years and St. Petersburg in less than five years.

So, in terms of population, Vancouver is already superior to five MLB cities, and will be superior to eight MLB cities in just a few years.

MLB may never come to Vancouver. But it certainly has the population size to support it.
The population argument also holds true for the NBA to some extent.

There are a few reason I think the business case is far more difficult for MLB in relation to the cities you listed, irrespective of population trends.

For one, baseball is deeply rooted in the culture of most areas of the U.S. and most of those franchises, even in smaller markets are 40+ years old and are steeped in the culture of the City and corporate support. (Tampa Bay less so). I'm not saying this culture couldn't take root in Vancouver, but it would probably need to evidenced by a sustained period of support at more than just short-league A ball. Probably 5-10 years of proven support at AAA level would work.

This is reinforced by the fact that, in many of those smaller markets, there isn't a whole hell of a lot to do during the summer OTHER than to go to a baseball game. I've been to games in Baltimore and Pittsburgh, and I'm guessing those are probably better cities than most the rest of the list. In Vancouver, there are so many options for things to do in the summer that often times going to a sporting event is not up near the top of a lot of people's list...see the Lions troubles with attendance on some of the nicer summer evenings this season. Add on to that the shoulder season of April/May when the weather isn't great here, you'd have to have a roof, and you're still competing with hockey...

The case would also have to be made for TV ratings which wouldn't do great in the summer for the same reason...

The biggest reason though is simply that you'd have to make a case for Vancouver to more than double it's current sports capacity expenditure. Currently the Canucks, Lions, Whitecaps, Giants and Canadians combine for about 1,800,000 seats per year. You'd have to make a business case to support at least an additional 2,500,000 per year (based on MLB median attendance for 2013). This is something that is definitely supportable with a larger market even in a non-traditional baseball market like Miami or Toronto, but they are much larger.

Perhaps at some point if we keep growing at our current rate and there are cities/franchises that are stagnating, someone will come along and throw some money into a stadium to give it a shot, but I honestly don't see this happening in the next 20 years, at least. (and my gut says the NBA will be viable to come back well within this time frame almost for the sole purpose that it is in the dreary winter months when there is only hockey to compete with).
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  #19  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2013, 2:48 AM
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The business case for both MLB and NBA is crap. Population plays a small part compared to simply geography, nationality, and demographics.

For MLB it is popularity. The Vancouver Canadians being popular and selling well isn't the same as MLB. You have to either make a lot of money by filling seats or via an expensive TV deal for MLB to work in Vancouver.

Vancouer attendance stats:

2010 = 154,592
2011 = 162,162
2012 = 164,461
2013 = 184,042

Now let's compare to MLB:

#1 team in 2013 = LA Dodgers = 3.74 million
#30 team in 2013 = Tampa Bay = 1.51 million

Seattle was #25 on the list with 1.76 million

So that is over 8 times the attendance just to reach the bottom of the MLB in attendance over Vancouver at its peak in 2013. To do that you need a stadium, infrastructure, and remember an MLB team's payroll would jump drastically.

As a side note, the owner of the Vancouver Canadians himself said even AAA baseball would have a difficult time in Vancouver. If AAA in his eyes, someone who I'd claim is an expert in running a baseball team, would be a difficult thing to make money with or a go of it, MLB would have no chance. This isn't baseball country as much as baseball fans would like to think.

Now NBA.

NBA would be popular enough to make a go of things. For one, the season is more similar to hockey, the costs are probably more around that, but what NBA has trouble with are 1) the restrictive rules put on new teams (which is changing and has changed to a degree) and more largely 2) the players themselves.

Your average NBA player couldn't find Canada on a map. Heck many couldn't find states outside California, New York, and Florida on a map. It is a far different demographic both in race and in nationality.

NBA in 2011 had 78% black, 17% white, 4% Latino, and 1% Asian.

Now breaking down citizenship, in 2011-2012 they had a record 84 international (meaning non-American) players on the starting rosters total out of around 360 total starting roster players. That means 23% international players vs 77% American players. And of the international players, there were 8 from Canada.

Compare this to Hockey:

52.3% Canadian
23.4% American
7.6% Swedish
4.5% Czech
3.8% Russian
8.4% Other

So you have 1 in 4 players in the NHL being American and 1 in 2 players being Canadian. For a sport centered in North America, that works.

NBA being 3 in 4 players = American and many are from the south of the US, makes it difficult to convince them to play in Canada unfortunately. Just the truth.

So yes things are better today in the NBA than they were in 1995, but the league just due to team demographics, would still make having a viable competitive team in Canada very, very difficult.

Toronto has the 5th largest metro area population wise in all of North America, and #1 in Canada, and finds it difficult to compete in the NBA. How could Vancouver at 23rd in North America and 3rd in Canada have a chance in the long run?

Vancouver = Hockey followed by CFL and Soccer. I don't see that changing any time soon.


The final argument against both is corporate support. There is only so much corporate support across the board and business has to make a choice. Would they purchase into NBA support or would they put their money behind the Canucks? I think corporate support for NBA or even MLB would be difficult in this city.
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  #20  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2013, 3:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phesto View Post

Currently the Canucks, Lions, Whitecaps, Giants and Canadians combine for about 1,800,000 seats per year. You'd have to make a business case to support at least an additional 2,500,000 per year (based on MLB median attendance for 2013). This is something that is definitely supportable with a larger market even in a non-traditional baseball market like Miami or Toronto, but they are much larger.
First of all, out the 30 MLB teams, only 16 had a total attendance of 2,500,000 or more in 2013. In fact, eight teams had a total attendance between 1.5 million and 1.8 million.

So, your requirement of 2.5 million is invalid.

As I pointed out, Vancouver (which continues to grow rapidly everyday) already has a larger metro population than Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Kansas City and Milwaukee, and has a metro population that will surpass Denver, Baltimore and St. Petersburg in the near future.

Of these eight teams, four support 3 or more major league sports (in addition to numerous minor league sports):

Pittsburgh supports MLB, NHL and NFL.
Cleveland supports MLB, NBA and NFL.
Kansas City supports MLB, MLS and NFL.
Denver supports MLB, NHL, NBA, MLS and NFL.

There may be valid reasons why MLB will not come to Vancouver. But the argument that Vancouver's population is too small is demonstrably false.
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