Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Ah, the good old social engineering trope. You do realize that by definition every decision which affects society is social engineering? Maintaining the status quo is certainly social engineering, while pursing change is also definitely social engineering.

Def have to disagree. Seen enough social engineering over the last couple of decades to witness eventual public backlash. Be it the provincial NDP guvmint's union pay scales and other gender requirements on non-union provincial highway projects during the 1990's or its female/transgender requirements for replacement candidates of existing male NDP MLA candidates.

Or the Liberal's carbon tax or the HST.

I can go on and on and on. At the end of the day, public opinion eventually turns again same.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

That's my two cents.

I really can't find anything at all to fault in your stream of consciousness...

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth

also I should add that I think a major decision like this should be put to a PLEBISCITE

just like the games were.

Synchronicity. That's exactly what had been going through my mind for the last few days.

[Dave2]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Hmmmmm. Vancouver's far-left, COPE, back in the day - 1984 to be exact - opposed the construction of the new new Cambie Street Bridge - in order to replace the old, derelict, sub-standard structure of immense proportions. In fact, common traffic reports, back in the day, reported about "fires" on the adjacent wooden sidewalks during the summer months as a result of discarded cigarettes.

But guess what?

Van City voters voted overwhelmingly in favour of the new 6-lane Cambie Street Bridge on March 14, 1984 as recommended by then Cov Transportation engineer Bill Curtis. A good reasonable man. Left-wing COPE's pleas on the status quo fell on deaf ears. Makes common sense.

Ironically, a certain theme can be juxtaposed today in that regard - the southwest piers of the new Cambie Street Bridge were constructed, circa 1982, and the then BCTV news did a story on same as they were constructed without public knowledge or plebiscite approval (under centre-left mayor Mike Harcourt's tenure). Why the new piers when the bridge wasn't even approved yet?! (Because of the adjacent condominium development requirements)

It was just good common sense.

Back then, Bill Curtis was the CoV's chief transportation engineer. And a reasonable one at that.

Today we have Jerry Dobrovolny in that same position, who is now involving the CoV in "social engineering". Nothing to do with regional transportation logistics. In fact, quite the opposite. Not most people's cup of tea.

BTW, Dobrovolny lives in New Westminster and was a former left-wing New Westminster city councillor who is now doing the bidding of left-wing councillor Geoff Meggs. The same left-wing New Westminster councillors now opposing the new Pattullo Bridge. Great!!

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/streets/...ridge_book.pdf page 8 relates the story.... The choices were building a new north end Nelson/Smithe section connecting to the Connaught Bridge, or building an entirely new bridge. LOL at the first option, the bridge would be 100 years old in 2012.

I've wondered where I should post this clipping I found last week. This may be the place....


scan0019 by Splashcat, on Flickr

Nov 18 1984 is the date the Connaught Bridge closed says the pdf. Meanwhile, ... an act that is big enough to play BC place takes the stage



Michael Jackson on the Victory Tour Nov 18, 1984 by bev. davies, on Flickr

[Vestry]

SFUVancouver's post on the previous page is right on point.

Another interesting set of relevant data:



This really says a lot about how the bus-to-Skytrain commute in East Vancouver still needs to be made more attractive. The viaducts seem to serve Vancouver itself even moreso than the suburbs.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vestry

SFUVancouver's post on the previous page is right on point.

This really says a lot about how the bus-to-Skytrain commute in East Vancouver still needs to be made more attractive. The viaducts seem to serve Vancouver itself even moreso than the suburbs.

Great chart. Rapid transit along the Burrard inlet would help a lot of those darker colored areas.

Is there any possibility of adding a WCE station in East Van and/or North Burnaby? It seems like that would be the cheapest bang for the buck.

[CPE]

Originally Posted by Vestry

This really says a lot about how the bus-to-Skytrain commute in East Vancouver still needs to be made more attractive. The viaducts seem to serve Vancouver itself even moreso than the suburbs.

But that's like taking a chart of the Cambie Street bridge and then finding out that most of the traffic comes from the Cambie corridor and that we need to improve transit along Cambie. Theres always going to be car traffic no matter how good the transportation system is.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Great chart. Rapid transit along the Burrard inlet would help a lot of those darker colored areas.

Is there any possibility of adding a WCE station in East Van and/or North Burnaby? It seems like that would be the cheapest bang for the buck.

I believe it was considered. The problem is wherever you put it access wouldn't be easy. There's a lot of industrial built along the waterfront and where there isn't any, there are steep grades.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Vestry

This really says a lot about how the bus-to-Skytrain commute in East Vancouver still needs to be made more attractive. The viaducts seem to serve Vancouver itself even moreso than the suburbs.

It's far easier to take your car into town partly because of geography. Renfrew's at the bottom of a cut, which means you're walking uphill within a few blocks.

From 1st avenue, there's NO east-west Bus and 1st is a major car thoroughfare. so it's a no-brainer to take your car. Walking/Bussing to Renfrew SkyTrain means two transfers.

Hastings is still a slow route and while people DO take the #16 all the way downtown, many (especially women) prefer to take a more direct express bus that is faster and doesn't take on as many passengers from the DES.

From 22nd Ave, it's still quick to get in a car and jet down either 22nd, Grandview or Broadway to get to Clark.

The REASON those downtown viaducts are used by East Vancouver's residents has little to do with the viaducts themselves, but rather the efficient road network from East Vancouver having lots of opportunities to disperse traffic. The Clark St. viaduct and Terminal Ave. being no-light streams of traffic also help.

The only potential choke point is Commercial Drive. Other than that, it's clear sailing to get to the viaducts.

Removing the viaducts won't reduce the traffic coming from East Vancouver, it will simply spew them out onto local streets.

From points east of Boundary, residential areas have to directly go past a SkyTrain station (Lougheed Hwy) or have to deal with enough traffic so that taking the train is worthwhile.

In short, East Vancouver doesn't have to wade through much congestion or traffic. About half of the journey will be along express arterials (Clark Drive West) so unless you live next to a SkyTrain, the car will still be very attractive for a long time. If you live next to Rupert or Renfrew station, it still involves a transfer... (albeit an easy one)

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

BINGO!!!

Translink has never removed a circa 1999 Translink MRN route unless it was a new and "superior" alternative. And frankly, CoV's alternative could be categorized as inferior at best.

Translink has also never removed a circa 1999 designated "Truck Route Network". To wit, during 2003, Surrey City council requested Translink's "Truck Route Network" designation removal of 32nd Ave., west of Hwy 15 to Hwy 99, from Translink (because of a huge political outcry from local residents) and Translink DECLINED.

With alot of political pressure, Surrey City council, within the past year, again requested that Translink remove the same "Truck Route Designation" and were declined again by Translink.

So... regarding BOTH viaducts... what makes Van City believe that they are "so special"?!

It's pretty clear that they're trying to sway public opinion. If they make the PUBLIC want the viaducts to come down, Translink (which is a political organization) will be pressured by their constituents to remove it from the MRN.

[WarrenC12]

There was a lot of talk about this on CKNW this morning. Surprisingly a lot of support for removing the viaducts.

I don't agree with removing them (today anyway), but some one salient point was brought up a few times I had to agree with. "We shouldn't be listening to David Pratt and Bruce Allen to plan our city." Those clowns really do have a Rush Limbaugh style following here.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Vestry

The viaducts seem to serve Vancouver itself even moreso than the suburbs.

...which implies that a decision by Vancouver voters one way or the other has a fair bit of legitimacy.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

It's pretty clear that they're trying to sway public opinion. If they make the PUBLIC want the viaducts to come down, Translink (which is a political organization) will be pressured by their constituents to remove it from the MRN.

You forget that the CoV is just a small component of Translink, which is comprised of all of the municipalities in Metro Vancouver. I doubt that the rest of the municipalities will agree.

As a I stated earlier, Translink has both the MRN and the Major Truck Network (which also encompasses both the Georgia and Dunsmuir Viaducts).

Previous Translink precedents have already been cast in stone. To wit, in Surrey a major public outcry, by residents along 32nd Ave. between Hwy 15 and Hwy 99, for the removal of the MTN designation was declined by Translink in 2003 and recently again. BTW, Surrey council supported that MTN removal.

I don't see Translink approving the removal of the MRN and MTN designation of the viaducts, when they have declined same requests from Surrey council and Delta council on similar matters.

As an aside, I just came across this Jan., 1971 photo of the viaduct overpasses of Main St. under construction.



Source: http://pasttensevancouver.tumblr.com...geoviaduct1971

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

As an aside, I just came across this Jan., 1971 photo of the viaduct overpasses of Main St. under construction.

You know, those cantilevered abutments that support the spans are actually a lot less obtrusive than the ones on most of the overpasses you see.

[East Van]

Living close Notre Dame for 10 years, I took the viaducts 90% of the time. Most people I knew in this neighborhood also used this route.

Living next to the PNE for the next 10 years I split my 50/50 between Powell & the viaducts. I used the Georgia viaduct to exit DT most times to get back to the hood.

I'd like to see these slabs of concrete stay & get tied into a network of roads to get in/out of the core. Not everyone is trying to sit through a dozen lights to go 4-5 km.

[trofirhen]

With the new Port Mann bridge, and the entire Gateway project set to open reasonably soon, I would think this would mean that the whole project will collect more traffic, both Eastbound and Westbound, of course.

For the Westbound traffic, while some of it will of course be destined for the Ironworkers' Bridge crossing, and other places in Vancouver, surely much of it will be heading for downtown itself, as is the case now ..... only in (presumably) larger volume flow.

As such, will this not put even more demand for access to downtown from the point of origin (Gateway)? If so, removing the Viaducts might prove about the worst city road engineering project in many moons. I mean, imagine the increased downtown-bound (or outbound from downtown) traffic all being forced onto a grid road system ... which uses (ulp!) traffic lights?

This is going to create the biggest gridlock this side of Hooterville, if that's the case. (Others will disagree, of course)

[Pinion]

I was just offered a job in south Vancouver and turned it down because traffic is such a nightmare. It's the second job I've turned down because of a lack of decent road infrastructure in Vancouver proper. I'd rather commute east.

And I live in a much more central location than most people, so I can't imagine how much the no highways policy has hurt.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I was just offered a job in south Vancouver and turned it down because traffic is such a nightmare. It's the second job I've turned down because of a lack of decent road infrastructure in Vancouver proper. I'd rather commute east.

And I live in a much more central location than most people, so I can't imagine how much the no highways policy has hurt.

Do you live in Burnaby?

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by st7860

Do you live in Burnaby?

No.... does this bar not show up on the message board for you?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I was just offered a job in south Vancouver and turned it down because traffic is such a nightmare. It's the second job I've turned down because of a lack of decent road infrastructure in Vancouver proper. I'd rather commute east.

And I live in a much more central location than most people, so I can't imagine how much the no highways policy has hurt.

^^^^

The highways policy seem bizarre to me. I can understand people not wanting their leafy disticts torn up by freeways, yet I have to agree that South Van is a traffic nightmare, having lived there briefly,once, plus being obliged to drive through it on jobs. Everything seems funnelled onto the arterial roads, and they're consequently choked and rabid.

Frankly, of course the governmant cannot afford it, having spent $$$$$? on Whistler-Howe Sound improvements plus 2010 (- and I'm not knocking The Olympic Games; don't get me wrong -, only saying it was very expensive, and as I understand, did not reap the expected financial awards in vastly boosted tourism or investment).... it would seem that infrastucture funds are high and dry.

Regarding traffic inflow and outflow at the soon-to-be (it seems) former Georgia / Dunsmuir Viaducts, it might be interesting to re-open the road fantasy thread, or start a Viaduct Replacement Fantasy Thread. On this issue, somethin's gotta give ... and somethin's gonna give, ..... like it or not.