Rail-based Transit Discussion

[musicman]

It is a limit of the rail bed mostly.. I remember going to montreal from campbelton a few years back and passing cars next to the 20 going through quebec... And as anyone knows that has been on it, you get dirty looks doing 120, it is much more common to be doing 130 or 140...

[scooby074]

I think max speed on the engines is ~100mph but the engines would never run max speed in daily service

I agree that the railbed is likely an issue, but there are traincars that can get high speed on "flat" track because the body tilts to compensate. These trains are used in Europe and Amtrak's Acela lines . The Acelas are capable off 150mph top speed.

First generations had maintenance issues due to the complicated tilt system but I think a lot of those problems have been worked out.


I also think that alot of the whistle stops on the Ocean should be eliminated. This would speed the trip immensely.

The Ocean route is 836 miles. It takes 22 hours 40 min currently. Thats an average of 36.8 mph!!!

Get that average up to 80 mph by increasing speed with better rolling stock and reducing stops and travel time drops to 10 hours 30 mins. This is getting more reasonable.

At 120 mph average its about 7 hours. A 120 mph average would likely require major track improvements however.

[Keith P.]

I wonder how much of the service reduction is due to labor issues. I noticed during the media interviews over the last couple of days that the VIA workers are represented by the CAW, a notoriously tough union. The attitudes of the union members interviewed were not impressive. At some point one wonders if management just said, "this isn't worth it" and threw in the towel.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I wonder how much of the service reduction is due to labor issues. I noticed during the media interviews over the last couple of days that the VIA workers are represented by the CAW, a notoriously tough union. The attitudes of the union members interviewed were not impressive. At some point one wonders if management just said, "this isn't worth it" and threw in the towel.

My sense is that rail transportation is highly politicized and completely uncompetitive. On the one hand you have the unions, and on the other you have a heavily constrained crown corp built atop the CN/CP monopoly (over track the public originally paid for). On top of all this there's the perception that highways are the serious or more legitimate infrastructure, and governments can sink billions into them without anybody raising an eyebrow. It does not seem like a recipe for good service.

A more reasonable alternative approach might be a bare-bones crown corp to oversee the natural monopoly of the national rail line infrastructure itself. They could auction off use of the track to the railway companies. Under a system like that you could have a company start up by buying some trains and providing a small passenger service.

[halifaxboyns]

I had a quick peak at the press release from VIA regarding the Ocean. I just wanted to confirm whether the service decrease was year round or if it was off-peak. The news release is quite specific for the changes to the Canadian - which is off-peak only. But for the Ocean, it isn't - so I would say that this service reduction will be year round.

[q12]

Halifax's former commuter rail service with pictures:

Station stops: Armdale, Rockingham, Bedford, Windsor Junction, Kinsac, Wellington, Elmsdale, Mount Uniacke, Windsor, Dartmouth etc.

http://www.novascotiarailwayheritage...os.htm#ARMDALE

http://www.novascotiarailwayheritage...s2.htm#WINDSOR

Last Train from Windsor in 2010 with pictures:

http://ns1763.ca/rail/whr-winjct-2010nov.html

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by q12

Halifax's former commuter rail service with pictures:

Station stops: Armdale, Rockingham, Bedford, Windsor Junction, Kinsac, Wellington, Elmsdale, Mount Uniacke, Windsor, Dartmouth etc.

http://www.novascotiarailwayheritage...os.htm#ARMDALE

http://www.novascotiarailwayheritage...s2.htm#WINDSOR

Last Train from Windsor in 2010 with pictures:

http://ns1763.ca/rail/whr-winjct-2010nov.html

Great websites.

Truly shows just how bad a state that rail transport has gotten to within the province. A shame to go from what we had, to what is is now.

[Waye Mason]

I just drove from Halifax to Ottawa to Kingston to Toronto and back... really drives how how big Canada is!

I don't think rail can compete with air for long distance passengers in Canada. Even if we built high speed rail, the ROI would be super low for doing it this side of Montreal, the place where rail should be competitive and supported by the provincial government is local/regional.

I would like to see studies on rail service from Moncton to Halifax, Halifax to Sydney, partnered with Acadian, maybe. Get the buses off the highways. I remember when the feds cut the Via route from Halifax to Sydney it was generating something like 55-65K a year ridership. The province already subsidizes that route a million a year (Truro to Sydney) to keep the freight line open.

I wonder if public ownership of the rail system with private operators is a better way to go.

[MonctonRad]

Good post.

I agree that transcontinental service can't compete with air service and that high speed rail would likely be prohibitively expensive outside the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. I would like to see daily train service from Halifax-Montreal and Toronto-Vancouver preserved though.

The focus for rail transit should really be for commuter rail and local intercity routes.

Here in the east, there should be commuter rail in HRM extending to Bedford with spurs to Windsor and Truro. There should also be a 2-3 times daily intercity rail service connecting Halifax-Moncton-Saint John. Along this route lives at least 900,000 people. Local intercity rail should be viable, especially since it delivers people from city centre to city centre. This is an advantage over air service. Lets get those busses off the road! Rail is a superior experience compared to moldy old busses.

[HFX]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Here in the east, there should be commuter rail in HRM extending to Bedford with spurs to Windsor and Truro. There should also be a 2-3 times daily intercity rail service connecting Halifax-Moncton-Saint John. Along this route lives at least 900,000 people. Local intercity rail should be viable, especially since it delivers people from city centre to city centre. This is an advantage over air service. Lets get those busses off the road! Rail is a superior experience compared to moldy old busses.

I'd honestly like to see it extend out to Lower Sackville right where the Link station is. With all the new housing developments going on out there and the already large parking area available (and able to expand) the light rail would see some high traffic for people who work in the city but live in those suburbs.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by HFX

I'd honestly like to see it extend out to Lower Sackville right where the Link station is. With all the new housing developments going on out there and the already large parking area available (and able to expand) the light rail would see some high traffic for people who work in the city but live in those suburbs.

The sad thing is that in the commuter rail study they predicted 42 boardings at Duke Street. The number of predicted boardings was actually reduced because of improved MetroLink and MetroX service. They don't seem to have considered rerouting buses to serve the commuter rail (!!), or transit-oriented development -- the focus is all on having people drive to a park-and-ride.

http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...0110ca1131.pdf

My impression is that HRM transit planning is still in the stone ages. A couple years ago they produced that pamphlet claiming that rail transit could only work in large regions of 1 million or more. Meanwhile, in Kitchener-Waterloo, LRT construction is set to start in 2014.

[scooby074]

High speed rail for this side of Montreal wouldnt be that expensive (relative) if the existing tracks were used and tilting trains such as Pendolino or the Voyager were ran on them. This would enable higher speeds and likely greater efficiency as the engines would be more modern.

Dropping many of the whistle stops would help too.

If the average time for a trip to Montreal was reduced from ~1 day to <10 hrs, I have no doubt ridership would increase.

Time is the Achilles' heel of train travel, shorten that and the trains benefits, such as the ability to have a good meal and walk around start to look enticing. And let's not overlook the ease of boarding and lack of being subjected to "security theater" and having your personal space invaded like what we're expected to grin and bear while boarding the plane.

[Waye Mason]

So this finally happened - low floor street car style trains allowed to run with traditional rail... FRA alternate compliance is a reality.

THIS MEANS we could reach for Stadler GTWs for the starter set on the regular rail line Duke Street to Halifax, and then extend the line down lower water and hollis, then fire it out the old railway cut or along Upper Water as a Toronto LRT style line.

Federal Railroad Administration Approves First Integrated Use of Stadler GTW Rail Vehicle for Denton County Transportation Authority (DCTA).

On Monday, June 4, 2012, Administrator Joseph Szabo of the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) in conjunction with the American Public Transportation Association Annual Rail Conference will formally announce approval of DCTA’s request to operate the Stadler GTW concurrent with traditional, compliant equipment. This means that for the first time ever; light-weight/fuel efficient, eco-friendly low-floor vehicles will be permitted to operate in rail corridors concurrently with traditionally compliant vehicles. The waiver, a first of its kind, will expand commuter rail options for transportation authorities across the United States. In 2009, the FRA’s Rail Safety Advisory Committee (RSAC) prepared a set of technical criteria and procedures for evaluating passenger rail train-sets that have been built to alternative designs. The alternative designs enable lighter, more fuel-efficient rail vehicles equipped with a Crash Energy Management system to commingle with traditionally compliant equipment. The DCTA/Stadler alternative design waiver is the first comprehensive submittal that follows the RSAC Engineering Task Force (ETF) procedures for Tier I equipment. The approval of the DCTA/Stadler waiver request demonstrates that the enhanced crashworthiness and passenger protection systems inherent to DCTA’s new rail vehicles meet the latest and most stringent safety standards in the U.S.

http://www.dcta.net/news-events/dcta...enu-id-59.html

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

So this finally happened - low floor street car style trains allowed to run with traditional rail... FRA alternate compliance is a reality.

I don't know how much this implies that everything will work out in a timely fashion for Halifax with the CN line, but it is good news.

The railway corridors in Halifax become a lot more useful if they can be extended along existing streets. The CN route is not that great on its own but if it were tied in with say a multi-modal downtown transit terminal (buses and ferries) and some suburban bus routes at other stations it would be great. There are a lot of ways the system could be incrementally improved without enormous capital outlays.

[halifaxboyns]

I would think it would be better for the service into the core to end at the Ferry Terminal. People don't seem to mind walking up the hill (winter or summer) and then you could ensure connections from the ferry. I like the idea though - anything that will improve the use of that train station. It is such a lovely old building and it deserves to be busy again.

[someone123]

I actually like a little bit of a walk on a commute. The South End rail station is too far away, but I think the ferry terminal would be considered a reasonable distance for a large number of downtown workers.

[Keith P.]

I think it needs to come in from the north, past the shipyard and Stadacona, terminating near Cogswell.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I think it needs to come in from the north, past the shipyard and Stadacona, terminating near Cogswell.

I agree that is an ultimate goal. I think a phased approach (Transit City, One City, Montreal 2008 transportation plan).

I just made this up while drinking coffee, but imagine some kind of 25 year plan, announced all at once, so that development factors this kind of thing into the equation.

Phase 1 - +18 months - Train Station to Bedford, four stops, Stadlers (Budds if we must).
Key part of this is that the bus routes need to be completely redone to feed the new stations.
Rules put in place to ensure streetcar is considered in design of streets when Cogswell is removed.

Phase 2 - + 3-5 years - new stops South Street, Larry Uteck, extended to Duke Street, where integrated Duke Street Station handles train and most buses routed from Burnside via 107 extension, Sackville via Glendale & Sackville Drive. Duke Street would be a key missing piece to allow interlining both bus to train and sackville to dartmouth/burnside.

Busways and HOV lanes leading to and from major interline stations.

Phase 3 - 5-10 years - Extend line down Lower Water, return via Hollis, along old railway cut (2 rails) past dockyard, shipyard, Richmond pier, Africville, Bayne Street, loop under fairview to go Mumford, some Bedford/Duke Express, go straight out to Bedford.

Phase 4 - 10-20 years - If Budds phased out or used to extend service to Dartmouth via railbed (Duke to Alderney, four stops). Possibly run new rail on or near 107 extension, up burnside drive, rather than big circle route currently used.

Phase 5 - 20-25 years - street cars on Quinpool and Robie again.

[someone123]

One aspect that I haven't heard much about is improvements to the CN rail line itself. I've heard that there are some necessary signalling upgrades, but the reports also talk about significant speed restrictions on the route -- that's why there are 38 minute travel times. I wonder how much these could be eliminated by adding barriers or improving crossings? I also wonder if HRM could sell the project to CN by dangling the carrot of some money that would result in mutually beneficial infrastructure improvements. HRM also could have used the bridge maintenance as a bargaining tool but they seem to have missed their window of opportunity there.

Much of the CN ROW is actually really nice in that it's in a trench and has no at-grade crossings. Not every city has that.

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

(Budds if we must)

I've mentioned this before, but there's a sweet spot between spending too much money on a gold-plated system and making a half-assed system that is less appealing than it could be and therefore less likely to be successful. I think attractive, modern, comfortable vehicles with proper loading are a key factor.

I wonder how much the talk of Budd cars is either false economy (councillors just know they're around and old so figure they're cheap). Another factor is people thinking back wistfully to the dayliners -- this should be a real transit line, not a historic recreation for tourists and curious locals.

[ILoveHalifax]

I don't believe that the rail line will ever work as a major transit line. There is not a lot of development happening, nor likely to happen along the Bedford Highway. And people live only on one side of the road, the other of course being water. Many of the streets off Bedford Highway have been there for ages with a variety of older houses that are not likely to be pulled down for a long time. It would be very difficult to develope car parks and stations and bus lanes along the highway. The best opportunity for development would be further inland where people can approach from all directions, and development could build density allowing people to live within walking distance of the stations. Cars could drive to a station and park. Buses could feed all the stations with a lot more ease.
I wonder about a rapid transit line down the middle of 102.
The train station is out of the way as well and not many people work in that area. Transit should move people as fast as possible to where they want to go without the sidetrips to out of the way places.