Nova Centre | 64 m | 18 fl | U/C

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The same holds true with this obsession with getting the "best" proposal for any site. Up until recently we needed to be happy if we got any proposal at all. Not to say we should allow anything to go anywhere, but this isn't a perfect world and we cannot expect to get whatever some planner thinks is ideal every time. Stuff has a way of working itself out over time.

I don't think "best" exists. In a lot of cases in planning there are competing interests and typically it's impossible to please everybody. No matter what the city does, somebody will complain. With that in mind it's obviously not reasonable to hold off on a proposal just because not everybody's happy. Similarly, there's no such thing as a "zero risk" project or "zero risk" budgeting for the city. When people demand that of a project like the convention centre they are setting an impossible standard.

And yeah, STV publicized and presumably arranged for (paid? I don't know they did but I wouldn't be surprised) Saunders to come up and give his talk on why the convention centre is bad. When he did come up, he was very light on specifics for the Halifax case. He seems to have built somewhat of a career out of denouncing convention centres and not an unbiased observer.

The North American convention industry may be in decline but that isn't necessarily true in Atlantic Canada specifically, which has zero regional-sized convention facilities. I think it's also worth mentioning that this is more than just a money-making venture -- it is partly a public asset like the Metro Centre or the library. There's some benefit to having events locally even if the city does not directly profit off of them.

[mcmcclassic]

Here's my two cents worth. Halifax needs a development like the Nova Centre to spur development in the city centre. If the actual building doesn't "break even" financially, it will provide heaps of benefits for local businesses around it.

Aside from the dozens of construction workers Nova Centre will employ, it will provide jobs for the expanding businesses around it. Mr. Ramia indicated that a large portion of Nova Centre will be leased to financial services companies. As a 21 year old International Business major, I would love to have the opportunity to work in our city, and I am positive that other young (other experienced) business employees would love to stay home and work.

Let's take the "NO" out of Nova Scotia and make this province into one that is revered.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

And yeah, STV publicized and presumably arranged for (paid? I don't know they did but I wouldn't be surprised) Saunders to come up and give his talk on why the convention centre is bad. When he did come up, he was very light on specifics for the Halifax case. He seems to have built somewhat of a career out of denouncing convention centres and not an unbiased observer.

The North American convention industry may be in decline but that isn't necessarily true in Atlantic Canada specifically, which has zero regional-sized convention facilities. I think it's also worth mentioning that this is more than just a money-making venture -- it is partly a public asset like the Metro Centre or the library. There's some benefit to having events locally even if the city does not directly profit off of them.

These things are easy to lie about... they use aggregate figures for specific time periods. Obviously the economic downtown hurt practically ALL businesses. Unlike "sunset industries" its more about business activity in general and can't be compared to real sunset industries. Even if the trade show / convention industry was examined in this context it would still be considered in the growth stage... regardless of it maybe not increasing at an increasing rate post 2007.

Its an outright fallacy that there will be less trade shows... factually there are more because its the best way for B2B sales to occur.

These folks don't work in international business and quite frankly can have their opinion, but its not correct / based on real analysis. In fact, that guy is essentially running a mini convention to discuss how conventions are in decline.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

These things are easy to lie about... they use aggregate figures for specific time periods. Obviously the economic downtown hurt practically ALL businesses. Unlike "sunset industries" its more about business activity in general and can't be compared to real sunset industries. Even if the trade show / convention industry was examined in this context it would still be considered in the growth stage... regardless of it maybe not increasing at an increasing rate post 2007.

Its an outright fallacy that there will be less trade shows... factually there are more because its the best way for B2B sales to occur.

These folks don't work in international business and quite frankly can have their opinion, but its not correct / based on real analysis. In fact, that guy is essentially running a mini convention to discuss how conventions are in decline.

There's false information on both sides.

Aside from the rhetoric, the numbers are showing that the convention industry is in decline, but applied specifically to Halifax's context a new convention centre isn't necessarily a bad business decision.

The Nova Centre will not break even and will likely have to be subsidised; however, this is, at least in our predicament, a form of stimulus spending for Halifax's downtown, as this new infrastructure will open the city up to new markets it hadn't access to before.

So yes, Halifax will build the convention centre.
Yes, Halifax will increase its international profile.

Yes, we will continue to urbanise and bring density to our city, so that our increased tax revenues may bring this convention centre provincial subsidy to an end, along with meeting our broader, long-term goal of municipal debt tackling.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

The Nova Centre will not break even and will likely have to be subsidised; however, this is, at least in our predicament, a form of stimulus spending for Halifax's downtown, as this new infrastructure will open the city up to new markets it hadn't access to before.

Plenty of people are very selective in what they demand the government break even on. If they don't like something, it's got to turn a profit. If they like it, it should be subsidized.

In most cases if a venture is profitable then that's actually a sign the government is overcharging and perhaps involved in an area best left to the private sector. The big question for the government should be the cost/benefit in terms of social good vs. public spending.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

Plenty of people are very selective in what they demand the government break even on. If they don't like something, it's got to turn a profit. If they like it, it should be subsidized.

In most cases if a venture is profitable then that's actually a sign the government is overcharging and perhaps involved in an area best left to the private sector. The big question for the government should be the cost/benefit in terms of social good vs. public spending.

Given the track record of oil companies and private insurance companies -- I hardly think it's only the government that's capable of overcharging.

I suspect that with most people, even for things people 'like,' they'd prefer the profitable option as opposed to a subsidy. This is, however, not reality, as products and services will always be subsidised for the very poor. The goal, of course, is to have a balance of capitalism and socialism to ensure that spectrum of poverty is extremely tiny, with the bulk of the population existing within the middle-class, allowing people to work toward an honestly earned wealth.

As far as the Nova Centre's provision of social good vs. the public spending to build it, and then support it afterwards, ...we'll see.

Nevertheless, I'm thrilled this project is going forward. I'm excited for Halifax's downtown. I am just humbly trying to absorb all sides and opinions about this convention centre. I am very bias, in the sense that I love (and love a fuckin lot!) skyscrapers and the vibrancy density brings to cities. I just need to keep reminding myself, as I indulge in my excitment for what the downtown is gaining, that not all investments are necessarily money-making investments, even in the context of the downtown.

But I am certainly optimistic.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

There's false information on both sides.

Aside from the rhetoric, the numbers are showing that the convention industry is in decline, but applied specifically to Halifax's context a new convention centre isn't necessarily a bad business decision.

What numbers are these?

How is it an industry in decline? This is a layperson's view. Over time there have been more conventions / trade shows. Its not even worth debating... I've had the responsibility in the past of generating lists of trade shows, its mindboggling to see how many there are.

[HalifaxRetales]

By Saturday afternoon the trees already looked like this



not a good sign for attention to detail and upkeep

[kwajo]

Maybe it's a follow-up to the "dead" mannequin bodies, this time with plants

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

What numbers are these?

How is it an industry in decline? This is a layperson's view. Over time there have been more conventions / trade shows. Its not even worth debating... I've had the responsibility in the past of generating lists of trade shows, its mindboggling to see how many there are.

If you watch the STV program on youtube and the portion where Alan Ruffman is speaking - the Canadian convention numbers actually show a stable level, with a slightly increasing trend. Yet, if you listen to what he's saying - he's taking the US numbers and painting the picture that the Canadian convention market is declining as well when the graphics behind him clearly show that's not the case (for Canada).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

If you watch the STV program on youtube and the portion where Alan Ruffman is speaking - the Canadian convention numbers actually show a stable level, with a slightly increasing trend. Yet, if you listen to what he's saying - he's taking the US numbers and painting the picture that the Canadian convention market is declining as well when the graphics behind him clearly show that's not the case (for Canada).

Yeah, that was sad. One of many instances where the facts take a back seat when preaching to the choir. In the end however Alan Ruffman et al. have not been very successful at obstructing progress, thankfully.

A lot of people seem to think they "know" that industries like conventions are dying, but actually they are just speculating.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah, that was sad. One of many instances where the facts take a back seat when preaching to the choir. In the end however Alan Ruffman et al. have not been very successful at obstructing progress, thankfully.

A lot of people seem to think they "know" that industries like conventions are dying, but actually they are just speculating.

Yeah, speculation based on their "hunch"... just like how the world is going to end tomorrow.

Its all b/s. First of all, the "convention / trade show industry" isn't even an industry per se and it varies in success by the growth of specific industries. There are more information technology / ecommerce type of trade shows than ever in the past. Think about it... that industry didn't even really exist 30 years ago in the way it does now.

There has been an explosion in the growth of "green" conferences and trade shows. Nobody was having business-environment shows 20 years ago.

Industrial products will always have trade shows... its a convergence of industry, government and even academia. A foreign buyer needs the touch and feel of a product and its more cost effective for firms to sell in this way.

I don't even want to address the arguments of the other side because they aren't supported by any real evidence.

Furthermore, the whole judgement on how to spend public dollars is stupid. More money goes to support things that have no positive economic return for the government. Even at a loss, its one of the best vehicles to support regional business, particularly SME because it brings buyers to NS/Halifax/Canada.

Businesses employ people and giving them a venue is better than all these ridiculous loans you hear about in the maritimes.

I don't get why people think TCL is soo bad either? They've been in a sub par building for years.

I would be embarrassed to work in international business in Halifax and have to take foreign buyers to the current WTCC.

[halifaxboyns]

I find it interesting that a relatively new convention that seems to have sprung up in Halifax was the security forum that's been held in Halifax since 2009. Makes sense, considering Halifax's military and naval assets. But this to me is an example of a new conference (although still small) that could easily grow and benefit from the new convention centre.

I also think that there are other opportunities for new conferences as the economy improves. The fact that offshore oil is still going strong in NFLD and is likely something to grow in NS there is opportunities there. I'd personally like to see a major convention for the Canadian Institute of Planners in Halifax and maybe down the road a World Planners Congress (since the last one was in Vancouver some time ago).

[someone123]

I was down by the new Vancouver convention centre building the other night. I don't think there was a convention, but it was packed with people. There are a number of commercial spaces around the outside with restaurants and pubs and large outdoor patios. The boardwalk wraps around the building and people can climb up part of it. Lots of people were sitting on the benches and wandering around in the lookoffs.

If the Nova Centre's done well it could have a similar atmosphere. The covered area along Grafton could be a great year-round, basically all weather outdoor event space, for example. Hopefully over the course of the public consultations they will really nail down features like that and identify the most important design elements.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by HalifaxRetales

By Saturday afternoon the trees already looked like this



not a good sign for attention to detail and upkeep

Obvious vandalism by a disgruntled opponent. Round up the usual suspects.

[halifaxboyns]

Perhaps a symbolic representation of the reaction of the STV people?

[Northend Guy]

Originally Posted by HalifaxRetales

STV: "The trees are too tall! Take them down!"

[halifaxboyns]

Was just reading about the first engagement event on the 24th. There will be live streaming with an opening address from Chief Terry Paul. Apparently it's being held at the St. David's Hall and speakers will be limited to 3 minute presentations. I was reading the engagement goals too - loved the point (b) "Provide clear expectations on what can change and what cannot."

Hopefully that will quiet people to bringing the argument forward of we don't want tax payer dollars in this. That decision has been made. I also like that the first event is being held at a venue close to the site. While the second event is down at the Seaport Farmers Market (I probably would've chosen to stay close to the site for all of them), at least they are staying close to downtown. I just see a symbolic relationship of holding these events close to the site to keep people inspired to think, but that's just me.

[Waye Mason]

To me, while less than delighted at the P3 model, and not believing the TCL projections (I just don't believe them), there are a number of things about this that give me hope and excite me about the whole project, of which the CC is but a part.

1 - the project is $550 mil, right? Take out the convention centre part, at $160 mill, that still leaves $390 million in new development to be taxed. Divide that by 100 and times 3.5 (slightly lower than the actual commercial tax rate I can't be bothered to look up) and you get $13.65 million in tax revenue from the rest of the development. This means that the taxes from development more than cover the cost of leasing and operating the new CC, so it is a wash, or better than a wash, the city comes out a head, so lets stop hand wringing about it.

2 - moving the hotel to the Market street side, with the CC on the Argyle side, says to me that the whole site WILL be built all at the same time

3 - moving the hotel to the Market side means two smaller (in width) point towers on the Argyle side, which will be much better for the bar district.

4 - I really do get the feeling Ramia wants this to be his "legacy" to the city. This is why the consulting stuff is happening. He wants to sell this to the people, so that as many as possible look back and say "great job Joe" in 20 years.

As long as he gets the damn garage door off of Argyle this will be fine. Heh.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

To me, while less than delighted at the P3 model, and not believing the TCL projections (I just don't believe them), there are a number of things about this that give me hope and excite me about the whole project, of which the CC is but a part.

1 - the project is $550 mil, right? Take out the convention centre part, at $160 mill, that still leaves $390 million in new development to be taxed. Divide that by 100 and times 3.5 (slightly lower than the actual commercial tax rate I can't be bothered to look up) and you get $13.65 million in tax revenue from the rest of the development. This means that the taxes from development more than cover the cost of leasing and operating the new CC, so it is a wash, or better than a wash, the city comes out a head, so lets stop hand wringing about it.

2 - moving the hotel to the Market street side, with the CC on the Argyle side, says to me that the whole site WILL be built all at the same time

3 - moving the hotel to the Market side means two smaller (in width) point towers on the Argyle side, which will be much better for the bar district.

4 - I really do get the feeling Ramia wants this to be his "legacy" to the city. This is why the consulting stuff is happening. He wants to sell this to the people, so that as many as possible look back and say "great job Joe" in 20 years.

As long as he gets the damn garage door off of Argyle this will be fine. Heh.

Good analysis Waye, its not the worst P3 arrangement ever. Given that this is Halifax, this development will be our trade centre, etc for longer than intended and its worth the expenditure now while material and labour prices aren't as high as they will be.