London, England - France's 6th Largest City

[BevoLJ]

I'm not sure why it would surprise anyone that there are a lot of French people in London. I mean you have two of the most important cities in the world right next to one another. Both are amazing and fascinating, must visit as some point in life, cities.

How many New Yorkers are in LA I wonder? And NY and LA are on opposite sides of a continent. lol

[Nantais]

Originally Posted by nito

the meritocratic principles embedded within British society

Coming from a country which has just celebrated (with lot of pomp) an old lady's life whose sole merit was being born, this is quite ironic.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by nito

Both countries have seen the movement of peoples between each other; the key point being the trend of young, intelligent and economically active French citizens moving to the UK (primarily London), and old, economically inactive British citizens moving in the opposite direction to rural retreats such as Dordogne (-shire).

I would primarily put it down to the meritocratic principles embedded within British society, the heavily liberalised markets and an environment geared towards vibrant new enterprises that is simply not reciprocated in a country where the French state is overbearing and fixated on state-sponsored corporate behemoths.

Sorry to say man but this is nothing more than a good old British masturbatory post. Don't you watch those shows where British couples sell their house to start a restaurant or B&B in France or Italy? Two years ago I stayed at a camp ground in France run by a guy from Birmingham, you should have heard what he had to say about the meritocratic British society (and really? the UK is well known, rightly or wrongly for its class divisions).

I really have no stake in all of this, I'd just as well move to London as I would to Paris and depending on what field you're in or what you want to do there, either of those two is the better choice (and most of the time both). The French state on a whole is not more overbearing in any noticable way than the British one. Some aspects might be, but the UK has no lack of state overbearance. Just look up and count the cameras next time you're outside in your liberal and vibrant society.

I don't want to sound mean and I love both the UK and France alike, but posts like yours don't help on this already myth infested forum. About 90% of what is written here about places outside the US is pure bullshit and that includes your post.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Nantais

Coming from a country which has just celebrated (with lot of pomp) an old lady's life whose sole merit was being born, this is quite ironic.

Touché...

[urbanactivist]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

I'm not sure why it would surprise anyone that there are a lot of French people in London. I mean you have two of the most important cities in the world right next to one another. Both are amazing and fascinating, must visit as some point in life, cities.

How many New Yorkers are in LA I wonder? And NY and LA are on opposite sides of a continent. lol

Agreed. Any estimates on how many French people travel to London for holidays on any given Saturday? The cities being so geographically close, there are also many industries in which they are inextricably linked as well. For example... a friend of mine, originally from Texas, is an architect in London. But he also sings in evensong choirs as a side job. I was quite shocked to learn that over the last year, he had traveled to Paris four times with his London choirs to perform around the city. Anglican worship and French Cathedral worship styles are vastly different, especially where music is concerned, so I was surprised to learn that there is so much demand in Paris, but it is there.

In my month-long journey in the UK, I ran into Francophones in every city that I visited... Exeter, Bristol, Cardiff and London. From my impression, the French take plenty of opportunites to visit the UK, and vice versa.

If I lived there, I definitely would

[LtBk]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Sorry to say man but this is nothing more than a good old British masturbatory post. Don't you watch those shows where British couples sell their house to start a restaurant or B&B in France or Italy? Two years ago I stayed at a camp ground in France run by a guy from Birmingham, you should have heard what he had to say about the meritocratic British society (and really? the UK is well known, rightly or wrongly for its class divisions).

I really have no stake in all of this, I'd just as well move to London as I would to Paris and depending on what field you're in or what you want to do there, either of those two is the better choice (and most of the time both). The French state on a whole is not more overbearing in any noticable way than the British one. Some aspects might be, but the UK has no lack of state overbearance. Just look up and count the cameras next time you're outside in your liberal and vibrant society.

I don't want to sound mean and I love both the UK and France alike, but posts like yours don't help on this already myth infested forum. About 90% of what is written here about places outside the US is pure bullshit and that includes your post.

This kind of craps happens when you get too close to the US, the UK media portrayals continental Europe as some hellhole, or you governed by a center-right party whose ideology is close to the GOP party(thanks to Thatcher).

[nito]

Originally Posted by Nantais

Coming from a country which has just celebrated (with lot of pomp) an old lady's life whose sole merit was being born, this is quite ironic.

I take the view that it wasn’t a celebration of her personally, but of Britain, its culture, its people; essentially one big party. Think of it as the British equivalent of Bastille Day, except not every year, with more laughter and without the tanks. There is also the questionable and complex point as to whether it is as much of a burden to be the monarch, which counterbalances, or even outweighs the positives. Nonetheless, I fail to see how this is illustrative of Britain being more restrictive than France.

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Sorry to say man but this is nothing more than a good old British masturbatory post. Don't you watch those shows where British couples sell their house to start a restaurant or B&B in France or Italy? Two years ago I stayed at a camp ground in France run by a guy from Birmingham, you should have heard what he had to say about the meritocratic British society (and really? the UK is well known, rightly or wrongly for its class divisions).

I really have no stake in all of this, I'd just as well move to London as I would to Paris and depending on what field you're in or what you want to do there, either of those two is the better choice (and most of the time both). The French state on a whole is not more overbearing in any noticable way than the British one. Some aspects might be, but the UK has no lack of state overbearance. Just look up and count the cameras next time you're outside in your liberal and vibrant society.

I don't want to sound mean and I love both the UK and France alike, but posts like yours don't help on this already myth infested forum. About 90% of what is written here about places outside the US is pure bullshit and that includes your post.

I think you might have a rather jaundiced perspective of British society; this is the 21st century, not the Somme. That isn’t to say that it is some sort of rosy paradise; people can fall through the cracks, but the situation is far more preferable than in France where the state has a more commanding presence to do something with your life. Suffice to say, I have achieved what I have with my own business to date based on hard work

Why struggle against a bureaucratic stratified system, when you can be in London from Paris in just over 2hrs.

My first highlight would be the numerous long-term shareholdings that France holds in marquee ‘national champion’ companies across multiple sectors ranging from electricity, vehicle production, telecoms, gas, etc..., this phenomenon is pretty much non-existent in the UK; where state-supported industries were dropped long ago. You then have the protectionist attitude built into the establishment (refer to the Danone – Pepsi case) or interventionist policies. For instance, I could never envision a present-day British PM announcing a forced merger (as was in the case of Suez and GDF) to avoid a foreign takeover. In conclusion, the situation is best summarised by the World Bank’s latest Ease of Doing Business Report, where the UK came 7th (2nd in the G8), while France came 29th (6th in the G8), in the Index of Economic Freedom ranking, the UK came 14th, France 67th, and in the Economic Freedom of the World Index, the UK was 8th, France 42nd.

I also fail to see your point about cameras; there might be a lot of them, but they aren’t connected together and the vast majority provide sensible uses (e.g. along train platforms to provide clarity for drivers that nobody is stuck between the train and platform); I’d personally be more worried about police officers on-the-beat with firearms.

Should you have any further questions on whether Britain has a more restricted society relative to France, I shall point you in the direction of various rankings including Freedom of the Press, Bribe Payers Index, Democracy Index, Corruption Perceptions Index, Global Peace Index, Press Freedom Index, and Global Enabling Trade Report where the UK is ranked positively above France.

Originally Posted by LtBk

This kind of craps happens when you get too close to the US, the UK media portrayals continental Europe as some hellhole, or you governed by a center-right party whose ideology is close to the GOP party(thanks to Thatcher).

Continental Europe (excluding Germany, sensible & non-€ nations) is a hellhole at this precise moment; indecisiveness to sort the €-crisis once and for all is increasingly moving towards a break-up and potential global depression. Outside of that small € issue, the UK media is generally mixed on Europe, whether it be Sky News, the Guardian, The Economist or the BBC. The entire mis-management of the € in recent years however has probably turned many off further integration.

On a side note, the UK Government is currently composed of a coalition between the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats. Historically the Republicans and Conservatives would probably have aligned, but the modern-day Conservative Party are more akin to the Democrats on policies.

[SHiRO]

Wow, unbelievable...

If continental Europe is the hell hole, why were people burning down London 10 months ago?

There's nothing wrong with my perspective on British society, I'm just more realistic than you. Whereas there very much is something wrong with your perspective on France..."bureaucratic stratified system"? Are you claiming you can't start a business and thrive in France and that you have to go to London for that? Gimme a break...

The UK has plenty a protectionist attitute itself. Look at the reluctance to European integration, look at the stubborness in not joining the Euro eventhough you should have right from the start because that was the right thing to do business wise. Except you opted out for sentimental and protectionist reasons. There's nothing wrong with the Euro btw, the currency has performed great and is currently saving Europe from even deeper shit. There's a problem with fiscal unity and uneven economy and that's why politicians are calling for more integration, not less, like Merkel again did today! And who's standing on the side line? (with your own crisis btw, don't pretend the UK is doing well)

My point about cameras is that the UK is the biggest police state in western Europe, don't talk about the state having a commanding presence elsewhere when there are so many cameras that they can practically look into your home and when there are talks about privatizing police (which basically is the state hiring a third party to infringe on your rights without being accountable).

I love both the UK and France. I have family in the UK and friends I correspond with regurlarly. I visit France around 3 times a year. Both countries are ranked ridiculously low on all those freedom indexes you mention though and are more alike than you want to admit (the UK ranks 28th on the Press Freedom Index, below Namibia, Mali and Suriname). It's time for a reality check on your part.

[mousquet]

nito, you made it way too long when everybody here already knows by heart your usual speech. Once I got to (English?) rankings, I merely stopped reading.
I wish you better happiness.

[Vlajos]

France > England

[bricky]

I've also always wondered about the British Press's superiority complex towards Paris/France. Per capita income levels country wide are quite similar, with markedly less inequality in France. One can easily argue that France, from a visual/topographical/climate/food/fashion/cultural standpoint, is the nicer country. So what gives? The fact that London has become a bit of a playground for developing country rich people? That London specializes primarily in finance while Paris does not, and hence there are more very rich people in London?

If I wanted to pursue a career in banking or ancillary professional services, without question London is the better choice. But overall? I'm not so sure.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by bricky

I've also always wondered about the British Press's superiority complex towards Paris/France. Per capita income levels country wide are quite similar, with markedly less inequality in France. One can easily argue that France, from a visual/topographical/climate/food/fashion/cultural standpoint, is the nicer country. So what gives? The fact that London has become a bit of a playground for developing country rich people? That London specializes primarily in finance while Paris does not, and hence there are more very rich people in London?

If I wanted to pursue a career in banking or ancillary professional services, without question London is the better choice. But overall? I'm not so sure.

Yeah, I think that has more to do with a particular world view than it does with the reality of the two countries and cities.

North Americans also tend to have a warped view of France in particular. Often you hear people talk about France as if it is somehow impotent -- less consequential economy, no military, etc., even in comparison with the UK rather than the US. That's simply wrong. According to Wikipedia, France has the larger economy and its military spending is the same as the UK's.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah, I think that has more to do with a particular world view than it does with the reality of the two countries and cities.

North Americans also tend to have a warped view of France in particular. Often you hear people talk about France as if it is somehow impotent -- less consequential economy, no military, etc., even in comparison with the UK rather than the US. That's simply wrong. According to Wikipedia, France has the larger economy and its military spending is the same as the UK's.

The USA would likely be like Canada if it weren't for France.

[nito]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Wow, unbelievable...

If continental Europe is the hell hole, why were people burning down London 10 months ago?

There's nothing wrong with my perspective on British society, I'm just more realistic than you. Whereas there very much is something wrong with your perspective on France..."bureaucratic stratified system"? Are you claiming you can't start a business and thrive in France and that you have to go to London for that? Gimme a break...

The UK has plenty a protectionist attitute itself. Look at the reluctance to European integration, look at the stubborness in not joining the Euro eventhough you should have right from the start because that was the right thing to do business wise. Except you opted out for sentimental and protectionist reasons. There's nothing wrong with the Euro btw, the currency has performed great and is currently saving Europe from even deeper shit. There's a problem with fiscal unity and uneven economy and that's why politicians are calling for more integration, not less, like Merkel again did today! And who's standing on the side line? (with your own crisis btw, don't pretend the UK is doing well)

My point about cameras is that the UK is the biggest police state in western Europe, don't talk about the state having a commanding presence elsewhere when there are so many cameras that they can practically look into your home and when there are talks about privatizing police (which basically is the state hiring a third party to infringe on your rights without being accountable).

I love both the UK and France. I have family in the UK and friends I correspond with regurlarly. I visit France around 3 times a year. Both countries are ranked ridiculously low on all those freedom indexes you mention though and are more alike than you want to admit (the UK ranks 28th on the Press Freedom Index, below Namibia, Mali and Suriname). It's time for a reality check on your part.

I find it entirely bizarre that you opt to counteract my post with ever more obtuse tangents about riots, cameras and Britain supposedly being a police state, in a misguided attempt to lambast my previous comments, e.g. state-sponsored companies. Yet while you preach that you are a force against the spreading of ‘myths’ on this forum, you are simultaneously generating your own myths in the face of multiple independent indices, and clear cut examples that you have been unable to counter with any substance.

The reasons behind the disturbances last year are numerous; a key issue however (which I’ll revert back to later on) was the failure of the police to counteract early small-scale incidents with a levelled response. Once people (of all socio-economic groups) realised that the police weren’t going to act tough on looters, it spiralled out of control. This itself can be explained by the fact that while some police officers in the UK are given riot training, there is no real riot counter-force such as the National Gendarmerie in France. Secondly British mainland police do not utilise water cannon, rubber rounds or tear gas unlike their European counterparts.

I didn’t claim that you can’t start a business in France and thrive so I would be grateful if you could refrain from insubstantial quoting. Furthermore as someone who owns a business, I don’t even consider Britain as the best place to do business; there is still far too much red tape. What I did highlight with quantifiable reports is that the business conditions and the work environment are more conducive in Britain than they are in France.

Protectionism is an economic term for the polar opposite of free, transparent and liberal markets; I believe the term you are seeking in relation to resistance to further British integration within the EU is self-determination. It also wasn’t ‘stubbornness’ that prevented Britain joining the € currency union – it was common sense; i) Britain wasn’t ready to adopt the Euro, and ii) A currency union by itself is a disaster waiting to happen.... oh wait!

How on earth can anyone say not only that there is nothing wrong with the Euro, but that the Euro is saving Europe! Europe’s current predicament is down to the inherent flaws generated by the Maastricht Treaty and the adoption of the €; the creation of the currency union led to abnormal interest rates and cheap credit flooding into countries such as Ireland & Spain (feeding unsustainable and speculative property bubbles), and Greece (accelerating gross state fiscal irresponsibility). Now that the party is over, the cheap credit has ceased to flow and rates are now realigning. Yet at the same time, these same countries that are locked into a currency union (but not a political union) have discovered that there is insufficient regulatory framework, and most critically an inflexible monetary policy.

The situation in Britain isn’t great; indeed I think the government have probably cut too quickly in some areas, and not enough in others, with insufficient focus on growth and infrastructure investment. However if there is one thing I can credit the previous government with (and particularly Alistair Darling) it was that the tough decisions to resolve the British banks were undertaken a couple of years ago; had other European nations rectified their own banking situations, we might all be doing a lot better. Unfortuantely the failure to do so has seen the situation evolve into a full blown sovereign debt crisis; I dare not consider the potential ramifications had Britain adopted the Euro.

You might have a point if all the cameras nationwide were connected up to each other under some Orwellian centralised network, but they aren’t; firstly the vast majority of cameras aren’t even operated by public sector entities, they’re on located on private property. Secondly if Britain was a police state with aims for mass surveillance to somehow oppress its citizens, it does a pretty piss poor job considering that all the systems are separate from each other. Back-office civilian duties are being outsourced but frontline policing roles are not being privatised or outsourced. Referring back to my second paragraph, it comes across as odd that Britain is a sinister police state that won’t gas, fire or wash away citizens as is the case on the continent.

Indeed, Britain didn’t excel relative to other nations in some of those rankings, which is why I didn’t cherry-pick one over another (the rankings are published by a variety of independent organisations headquartered in territories including Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Switzerland, the UK, and the US to avoid bias); the point was to illustrate and conclusively debunk your illusionary claims, while at the same time reaffirming mine with regards to the two countries that this topic relates to.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by nito

The reasons behind the disturbances last year are numerous; a key issue however (which I’ll revert back to later on) was the failure of the police to counteract early small-scale incidents with a levelled response. Once people (of all socio-economic groups) realised that the police weren’t going to act tough on looters, it spiralled out of control. This itself can be explained by the fact that while some police officers in the UK are given riot training, there is no real riot counter-force such as the National Gendarmerie in France. Secondly British mainland police do not utilise water cannon, rubber rounds or tear gas unlike their European counterparts.

For one Britain is Europe. And where do they use rubber bullets?! (besides Northern Ireland I mean). Nice try, "mainland police do not use..." unless they need to use it, that is...

• Video Link

I didn’t claim that you can’t start a business in France and thrive so I would be grateful if you could refrain from insubstantial quoting. Furthermore as someone who owns a business, I don’t even consider Britain as the best place to do business; there is still far too much red tape. What I did highlight with quantifiable reports is that the business conditions and the work environment are more conducive in Britain than they are in France.

You have not provided any evidence for this except some silly ranking on a list by The Heritage Foundation.

How on earth can anyone say not only that there is nothing wrong with the Euro, but that the Euro is saving Europe! Europe’s current predicament is down to the inherent flaws generated by the Maastricht Treaty and the adoption of the €;

Absolutely false.

the creation of the currency union led to abnormal interest rates and cheap credit flooding into countries such as Ireland & Spain (feeding unsustainable and speculative property bubbles), and Greece (accelerating gross state fiscal irresponsibility). Now that the party is over, the cheap credit has ceased to flow and rates are now realigning. Yet at the same time, these same countries that are locked into a currency union (but not a political union) have discovered that there is insufficient regulatory framework, and most critically an inflexible monetary policy.

So that's a problem of those countries and THEIR economies and a sign that there is too little political integration, something that the UK for one is always frustrating. Thank you for disproving your own claim in the same paragraph...

Indeed, Britain didn’t excel relative to other nations in some of those rankings, which is why I didn’t cherry-pick one over another (the rankings are published by a variety of independent organisations headquartered in territories including Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Switzerland, the UK, and the US to avoid bias); the point was to illustrate and conclusively debunk your illusionary claims, while at the same time reaffirming mine with regards to the two countries that this topic relates to.

That's all fine and dandy but you're constantly talking about Continental Europe, the Eurozone and whatnot. A literal quote since you seem to have forgotten: "Continental Europe is a hellhole at this precise moment"
So no, not just France and the UK...

Look Nick, you need to take a good look at your own posts which come of as extremely pompous. I know the UK is not a police state, but don't go around how there is no state control and how continental Europe (when you really mean France) is worse or even go as far as calling it a hellhole and then accuse me of overstating things.

You called the UK a meritocracy vis-a-vis France in the week where you were celebrating the monarchy which is pretty ironic and you called continental Europe a hellhole not a year after the worse UK riots in decades and are now trying to minimize them because the police did not use watercannons?!

Do you really expect not to get called out on all this?

Ask yourself why you are having this debate with me, someone who loves both the UK and France and if it came down to things probably has a very slight preference for the UK because of language issues (not fluent in French), pop culture and (more) similar histories of our countries.

[SHiRO]

Anyway, let's see which is the best country tonight!

[JManc]

Originally Posted by urbanactivist

Agreed. Any estimates on how many French people travel to London for holidays on any given Saturday? The cities being so geographically close, there are also many industries in which they are inextricably linked as well. For example... a friend of mine, originally from Texas, is an architect in London. But he also sings in evensong choirs as a side job. I was quite shocked to learn that over the last year, he had traveled to Paris four times with his London choirs to perform around the city. Anglican worship and French Cathedral worship styles are vastly different, especially where music is concerned, so I was surprised to learn that there is so much demand in Paris, but it is there.

In my month-long journey in the UK, I ran into Francophones in every city that I visited... Exeter, Bristol, Cardiff and London. From my impression, the French take plenty of opportunites to visit the UK, and vice versa.

If I lived there, I definitely would

Paris and London are a 45 minute flight from one another. If I lived in either city, I'd spend a lot of time in the other.

[M II A II R II K]

France's proposed tax hikes spark 'exodus' of wealthy


16 Jul 2012

Read More: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...f-wealthy.html

.....

Many are fleeing a proposed new higher tax rate of 75 per cent on all earnings over one million euros. (£780,000) The previous top tax bracket of 41 per cent on earnings over 72,000 euros is also set to increase to 45 per cent. Sotheby's Realty, the estate agent arm of the British auction house, said its French offices sold more than 100 properties over 1.7 million euros between April and June this year - a marked increase on the same period in 2011. Alexander Kraft, head of Sotheby's Realty, France, said: "The result of the presidential election has had a real impact on our sales.

- Gilles Martin, a Swiss tax consultant, reported the same trend. "Since the socialists came to power in France, I have been deluged with inquiries from rich French people who would rather pay their tax in Switzerland," he told Switzerland's 20 Minutes newspaper.

- British estate agent Knight Frank said the tax plans had sent French interest in luxury London homes rocketing. Liam Bailey, Knight Frank's global head of residential research, said: "It is too early to see the impact of the proposed wealth taxes in France in terms of actual purchases in London. "But there is strong evidence from our web search statistics. "This evidence from web search activity backs up a noticeable spike in anecdotal comments from our office network, where French applicants have become much more noticeable in recent months."

- Prime minister David Cameron angered the French last month when he said he would "roll out the red carpet" to wealthy French citizens and firms who wanted move out and pay their taxes in Britain. He told the B20 business summit in Mexico in June: "I think it's wrong to have a completely uncompetitive top rate of tax. "If the French go ahead with a 75 per cent top rate of tax we will roll out the red carpet and welcome more French businesses to Britain and they can pay tax in Britain and pay for our health service and schools and everything else."

.....