Re-reading Kunstler

[mhays]

Seattle would allow the house, but if among bungalows it would be protested by the neighbors. On a hillside over the water (where a lot of newer/modern houses tend to be) it would be more accepted.

[JManc]

^ and expensive.

Originally Posted by CGII

Do you believe that subdivisions of single family homes are developed any differently? They too are commercial enterprises, and custom built units represent a tiny fraction of total construction.

True but developers are not going to experiment by designing as master-planned community with ultra modernist houses...especially ones that are geared towards average middle-class families. Apartment dwellers and commercial building tenants are less focused on the exterior design and more concerned about modern amenities. Modern styles tells prospective tenants "hey, this building is new and modern"

[Mr Downtown]

One thing that's pretty telling are homebuilder showcases (Parade of Homes and the like). Fifty years ago they were showcases of modern design and laborsaving devices. Today they are showcases of opulence (and "gadget green").

As for single-family homes, they are a market that adjusts very quickly and readily to buyer preferences. Except in California, most new houses are actually built by fairly small-time enterprises that only have 10 to 50 houses under construction at a given time, and many are built by a solitary guy with a pickup truck who hires subs. If the more-contemporary model sold faster, he'd build more of them. Since the one that looks like a train wreck between an Edwardian castle and a French chateau actually sells faster, he builds more of them. Extensive research into stylistic preference is unnecessary; revealed preference is all too apparent.

[vid]

Platform Photographers / Jorge Taboada

[Centropolis]

that's not too far off from some streets here, vid. the difference is (probably) wealth/culture and street connectivity.

[matthew6]

Originally Posted by vid

Platform Photographers / Jorge Taboada

Is this from a Sim City style game?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by matthew6

Is this from a Sim City style game?

Looks like a normal suburban neighborhood in Mexico.

[strongbad635]

I'm a religious KunstlerCast listener, and have read three of Kunstler's books (Geography of Nowhere, Home from Nowhere, and The City In Mind). IMO, Kunstler has mostly good points to make. His gloomy outlook on our future, while a bit alarmist and probably more negative than reality, is based on solid information and real trends that will probably continue into the future.

His critique of modernism strikes a real chord with me. In The City In Mind, his chapter on the city of Rome is an incredible tome to the real intrinsic value of the classical orders. How they reflect positive human psychology, remind us of where we're coming from (and thus give us a better idea of where we're going), and present to people a vision of civilization as stable, intelligible and on a basic level, consistent. Modernism's rejection of these psychologically calming elements is truly disorienting to many, and I heartily agree with Kunstler that it has at the very least contributed to our culture's sense of listlessness and confusion in the past century.

Kunstler's disdain for the skyscraper, while borderline annoying, is valid on some levels. Truly walkable, eco-friendly, walkable, and good urbanism works best with buildings that are between 2-10 floors. Tall enough to maximize lot footprint, but not so large that they require power-hogging elevators and sophisticated climate control systems. Personally, I think some skyscrapers can exist quite nicely in an urban fabric if they are forced to behave humanely on their first few floors with relation to the street. A while back Kunstler did a virtual tour of my homwtown, Baltimore, using Google Street View. He concluded that podcast with a zoom in on the Legg Mason Tower (which has recently been re-named the Transamerica Tower since Legg Mason has built another skyscraper for its HQ in Baltimore's Harbor East area). It is one of those typically banal, despotic enormous towers from the 1970s that grace (read: degrade) many sunbelt cities. Perhaps if it hadn't been designed as a giant fortress on ground level it would have contributed more to Baltimore's downtown.

I sincerely hope Kunstler's doom and gloom about our energy future is an exaggeration, but right now our technology isn't offering the kind of solutions we'll need to avoid changing our behavior. Solar panels and wind turbines are great, but they also require the use of rare-Earth minerals to produce. And do you know why they're called RARE Earth minerals? Because there are only very small amounts of them in the Earth. And they cannot be produced synthetically in any significant quantity. That will put a serious ceiling on how much energy we're going to be able to produce using solar and wind. Jeremy Rifkin has some interesting (and more positive) opinions about our energy future in his book The Empathic Civilization. I think I stand somewhere in between him and Kunstler. I don't think we're going to stave off a necessary change in our behavior no matter how much we enjoy using so much energy per capita.

Some of Kunstler's opinions about certain cities aren't really so accurate. He's right to point out the banality and disgustingness of some downtowns (like Atlanta), and he admits that Detroit and Cleveland are pretty hard up, burned-out shells, but he also lumps Baltimore, Memphis, and Pittsburgh into that category. He clearly needs to visit these three cities, because they have all really cleaned up their centers and made significant strides toward future re-population.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by strongbad635

Some of Kunstler's opinions about certain cities aren't really so accurate. He's right to point out the banality and disgustingness of some downtowns (like Atlanta), and he admits that Detroit and Cleveland are pretty hard up, burned-out shells, but he also lumps Baltimore, Memphis, and Pittsburgh into that category. He clearly needs to visit these three cities, because they have all really cleaned up their centers and made significant strides toward future re-population.

Excuse me? He also needs to revisit Downtown Atlanta, a place he absolutely hates simply due to the region it happens to be located in (although I don't believe he would be particularly welcomed here on a return visit).

On his only visit here, he absolutely went out of his way to portray the place in the worst, most negative light imaginable - focusing on loading docks, parking garages and blank walls off of the main corridors. He completely ignored ANYTHING positive about the place at all, and there is quite a lot to offset all of the negatives.

As far as Downtown Atlanta being "banal and disgusting" in your words, that is a total crock of shit.

[vid]

Originally Posted by matthew6

Is this from a Sim City style game?

It's a subdivision in Mexico City. I posted it to show that subdivisions can be made with modern architectural designs.

[mhays]

You can do a CMU (or whatever) box pretty cheaply, just like you can do a shed cheaply. Not really the same. I wonder if they leak.

[strongbad635]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

As far as Downtown Atlanta being "banal and disgusting" in your words, that is a total crock of shit.

Nice retort. Better to name-call and use coarse language than to provide any real information (or even a coherent opinion). Like I said, I've been to most of the same cities Kunstler has been to. Sometimes I have agreed with his assessment, and sometimes I have disagreed with it. I never qualified it to be anything other than my own perceptions.

I visited Atlanta in 1998 and 1999 for conventions, in 2004 for a personal trip to see friends, and again last year for business. Each and every time, I visited downtown and found it to be severely lacking in street life, pedestrian friendliness, and general spacial composition. The underground seemed like a ghost town. Distances were too large for walking to be a practical alternative to driving. I DID see a ton of blank walls, a/c grilles, loading docks, and parking structures. Centennial Park seemed to me an amorphous space, ill-defined and not particularly well-suited to public events as many other urban parks.

These are all my personal observations, as an outsider and someone who has no emotional attachment to Atlanta and absolutely no investment in my opinion of the city either way. It's not even close to the worst urban environment I've ever been to, but it certainly wasn't what I would call good either. Just the musings of an unmotivated neutral outside observer without an agenda either way. Perhaps with the handle "atlantaguy" you may have a bit of an emotional reaction to somebody painting a less than glowing picture of Atlanta? Perhaps???

That being said, some of the other places I've been in Georgia, particularly the small towns and their centers, were truly wonderful spaces. the old center of Marietta comes to mind immediately, as does downtown Savannah, which is one of the best-designed urban places in North America IMO.

[mhays]

Atlantaguy, you might try visiting some other cities. This will help you gain some perspective. This sort of comparison tends to be relative.

I wouldn't call Downtown Atlanta "disgusting" (it does some things fairly well) but compared to a lot of cities in the US, and particularly elsewhere, it is pretty banal in my opinion.

[llamaorama]

In those same Mexican neighborhoods they like to put the electric meters out front on posts by the street like mailboxes. Judging by the number of dials are those things often actually multi-family?

Anyways DT Atlanta has some interesting things, helps if you have an eccentric way of appreciating stuff. John Portman's Marriott and it's cavernous atrium like the rib cage of a massive animal...yearly filled with cosplaying anime geeks... down the street is the CNN HQ, etc.

Wouldn't want to go there on vacation though

[Uptowngirl]

I'm an Atlanta native...and DT Atlanta has real problems. John Portman was a disaster for the city, he turned all his buildings inwards...killing off all streetlife. I remember going downtown to help set up for a convention, and wanting to be out of Peachtree Center (and the fast food) I went outside looking for a cafe. Nothing. Concrete wall after concrete wall. (Now there is the Hard Rock but I'd hardly call that a local eatery).

Midtown is *much much* better fortunately.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by strongbad635

Nice retort. Better to name-call and use coarse language than to provide any real information (or even a coherent opinion). Like I said, I've been to most of the same cities Kunstler has been to. Sometimes I have agreed with his assessment, and sometimes I have disagreed with it. I never qualified it to be anything other than my own perceptions.

Nice try, but there was no name calling. It was an attack on your opinion that Downtown Atlanta is "banal and disgusting." Still a crock of shit, whether it comes from you or Kunstler/Kuntsler.

I visited Atlanta in 1998 and 1999 for conventions, in 2004 for a personal trip to see friends, and again last year for business. Each and every time, I visited downtown and found it to be severely lacking in street life, pedestrian friendliness, and general spacial composition.

How nice. Sounds like you either never left the convention center area (on the far westside of the core), had blinders on or were channeling Kunstler with this totallly false and uninformed view. There are over 200,000 workers/students/conventioneers/tourists Downtown on every single workday - in addition to over 30,000 residents. The streetlife in the core is vibrant, and I challenge you to prove that it is not pedestrian friendly. Spatial composition is purely subjective. As far as your friends go, I suspect that they are suburbanites that know nothing of the city, which is common here.

Perhaps you need to secure a knowledgeable tourguide, talk to your hotel concierge or simply check the web.

Just one fantastic neighborhood in the freaking HEART of Downtown that was practically under your nose:

http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/atlanta/fai.htm

The underground seemed like a ghost town.

More BS. I'm hoping that you didn't have a problem with the demographic that now supports Underground, but it is NOT a ghost town by any means. During lunch hours, the place is packed with students and office workers. They also have the latest pouring hours in the city (4:00am). Unfortunately outside of special events, the majority of the white population avoids the place - an unfortunate "perception" situation thanks to some of the local media, and residue from the Rodney King disturbances years ago. But a ghost town? No.

I freely admit that the immediate areas to the west and south of Underground are challenged when it comes to cleanliness and aesthetics, but it is still vibrant.

At any rate, it is an historic jewel that any city geek/architecture fan needs to see.

http://underground-atlanta.com/about-us/welcome.html

Distances were too large for walking to be a practical alternative to driving.

Yes, Downtown is large. Especially if you are accessing it from the convention center area. This is why taxis and public transit exist. Again, your hotel concierge and the web are your friends. Avail yourself of their knowledge and suggestions.

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/guide

I DID see a ton of blank walls, a/c grilles, loading docks, and parking structures.

Which you will find in practically EVERY U.S. city if you are looking for them.

Centennial Park seemed to me an amorphous space, ill-defined and not particularly well-suited to public events as many other urban parks.

Now THIS is AN insult. Centennial Park replaced a wasteland of auto-centric businesses, surface lots and many marginal and totally trashed out empty buildings. It was unsafe and blighted to the max. It is now clean, green, safe and beautiful - and attracts millions of locals and tourists alike with many events yearly. It has also been the catalyst for billions of dollars of investment surrounding the park in the form of museums, mixed-use development and tourist attractions. These include the now under construction National Center for Human and Civil Rights, the coming National College Football Hall of Fame, the existing World of Coke and the largest aquarium on the planet. It has become the regions new town center - something that has been absent from the metro for decades.

If you have a problem with the design, take it up with the respected firm of EDAW - the same folks that gave us Yerba Buena Gardens in San Francisco.

http://www.centennialpark.com/

These are all my personal observations, as an outsider and someone who has no emotional attachment to Atlanta and absolutely no investment in my opinion of the city either way. It's not even close to the worst urban environment I've ever been to, but it certainly wasn't what I would call good either. Just the musings of an unmotivated neutral outside observer without an agenda either way. Perhaps with the handle "atlantaguy" you may have a bit of an emotional reaction to somebody painting a less than glowing picture of Atlanta? Perhaps???

I personally think you doth protest too much. You got caught making an asinine statement, and are now attempting to backtrack - badly.

That being said, some of the other places I've been in Georgia, particularly the small towns and their centers, were truly wonderful spaces. the old center of Marietta comes to mind immediately, as does downtown Savannah, which is one of the best-designed urban places in North America IMO.

I'm very glad to hear this, but there is SO much more, including in the immediate metro area. And of course Savannah is amazing - it was designed by the British in the 1700's.

I'm sorry if I come across as overly harsh, but check out my join date. I have been enduring these mindless attacks and bashing of my adopted home for YEARS - which is why I hardly ever post here now. Your remarks combined with my hatred of Kunstler prompted this response.

As a liberal gay man that isn't even from here , I am completely disgusted with the homophobic Kuntsler and his blind followers. I suspect you are too intelligent to be of the later group. I DO happen to love this place, and you couldn't blast me out of here

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by mhays

Atlantaguy, you might try visiting some other cities. This will help you gain some perspective. This sort of comparison tends to be relative.

I wouldn't call Downtown Atlanta "disgusting" (it does some things fairly well) but compared to a lot of cities in the US, and particularly elsewhere, it is pretty banal in my opinion.

mhays, let me preface my response with the fact that I have nothing but admiration for you, and have enjoyed your posts for years.

That being said, I have been in the travel industry my ENTIRE adult life and have seen much of the world. This includes every major U.S. city with the exception of Dallas, Denver, Houston and Portland. Your Downtown is is my absolute favorite for a metro of under 5 million.

Just so you know, I am from NE Ohio originally and did NOT just fall off of the turnip truck from some podunk town in the rural South.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by Uptowngirl

I'm an Atlanta native...and DT Atlanta has real problems. John Portman was a disaster for the city, he turned all his buildings inwards...killing off all streetlife. I remember going downtown to help set up for a convention, and wanting to be out of Peachtree Center (and the fast food) I went outside looking for a cafe. Nothing. Concrete wall after concrete wall. (Now there is the Hard Rock but I'd hardly call that a local eatery).

Midtown is *much much* better fortunately.

Yawn. You have been extremely harsh on your hometown ever since you left - on this and other forums I peruse.

Just so you know, Portman SAVED Downtown Atlanta in the late 60's, early 70's. His designs - while totally fortress-like, were a response to the times they were built. The Merchandise Mart was the singular reason that we are now a top 5 convention city/top 3 wholesale trade mart city, period. I would suggest you read up a little on the history of your hometown over the last 40+ years. The streetlife surrounding Peachtree Center these days is wall to wall pedestrians during a large portion of the day - something that certainly flies in the face to your dated claims.

As far as the "concrete wall after concrete wall" crap, were you searching for lunch options behind the canyons of buildings on Harris or Courtland? It certainly does NOT describe Peachtree Street now, or even over 15 years ago.

And yes, if you aren't too comfortable with "urban" Downtown, Midtown is much, much more attractive and "new."

[hauntedheadnc]

atlantaguy: Perhaps, rather than attacking individual forumers, you would rather address Kunstler's tour of downtown Atlanta? You'll note that he does swing through what I believe is the Fairlie-Poplar neighborhood that, if I understand you correctly, atones for all the other sins of Atlanta's center city. You'll further note that he actually compliments it.

Seriously -- you and the other Atlanta forumers need to lower your blood pressure or something. Every time anyone comes on here and says that Atlanta is anything less than the apotheosis of American urbanity, you all lose your shit. It's tiresome. Atlanta is fine for what it is, but taken as a whole (so don't trot out the hair-trigger outrage), Atlanta and the Atlanta metropolitan area are not the best that American urbanity has to offer, or even than the South has to offer. Live with it. Deal with it. Fix it. But don't throw a temper tantrum about it.

Kunstler is a very influential urbanist that a lot of us might have more to say about and I'd rather not see this thread closed due to bickering.

On another note, I finished Geography of Nowhere and have moved on to Home from Nowhere. Like vid with his sandwiches, I usually attend to it when I'm in the bathroom, so it's going to take me a while to work through it.

[TarHeelJ]

BIG yawn. You obviously haven't seen some of the bullshit that people post about Atlanta (disgustingness?). It's ridiculous at times and, posted about ANY city, would warrant a defensive stance (I'm sure a similar post about Asheville would easily get you going). Get your story straight before you start with the accusations of temper tantrums. It's aggressive and unnecessary posts like yours that bring out rebuttal. I mean, why even comment?

Most people realize that Atlanta is not "the apotheosis of American urbanity", but on that same note it isn't the antithesis either. It's somewhere in between, especially in it's urban areas (like downtown).

And Kunstler is a well-known hack.