Downtown not the place to raise kids, says Toronto Deputy Mayor

[vid]

My grandpa would make multi-day hunting and fishing expeditions in the 1950s, sometimes going as much as 20 miles from home, before he was 15, though usually with a friend or two. That kind of thing is unheard of now. I didn't even have the courage to leave my end of town by myself and wander around downtown until I was 15. Didn't ride the city bus by myself until I was 12. These days, even though the fare structure makes reference to under-12s riding alone having to pay fall fare, it almost never happens and when it does, the driver's first reaction is to ask the kid if they're lost.

[Doady]

I remember in middle school in grades 6 and 7 during the mid-90s, the school let us go anywhere we wanted during recess and lunch. However, when I got to grade 8 they changed their policy and all students, grades 6-8, were no longer allowed to leave the school property. It was sad, another example of the "helicopter parenting" trend, I think.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

That's not "common sense", that's damn near imprisoning your child...

Have a child and then get back to us.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by vid

12 to 13? Holy fuck!

I remember when I turned 6 and was allowed to go to the corner store by myself for the first time. It was near the highway so only older kids could go without their parents. I got two dollars worth of candy, which in 1994, for a 6 year old, was a shit tonne of candy.

Americans are fucking paranoid, man. I blame the media.

That's difficult to believe, but I'm sure it happens...still, personal experiences don't transfer to what is and is not acceptable. I think under most of today's circumstances, 6 years old is very young to be walking to a store alone. It may not be what some people want to hear, but it's true.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I can't tell if this post is serious or not, but crime rates across America were much higher in the 70s and 80s than they are now. Either way, not letting your kid out of the house unsupervised until teenagehood is just plain awful parenting, wherever and whenever you live.

It's obvious that these comments come from people who are not parents. I'm not sure why so many people on anonymous forums love to act like an authority on a subject they know nothing about, but it's really ridiculous. If some more parents were here to discuss this it would be a different story, but this is off topic anyway.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

That's difficult to believe, but I'm sure it happens...still, personal experiences don't transfer to what is and is not acceptable. I think under most of today's circumstances, 6 years old is very young to be walking to a store alone. It may not be what some people want to hear, but it's true.

I concur 100%. Parent of two kids (aged 6 and 4).

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by Doug

Yes escorting my 3 year old down 46 floors and across 3 blocks of wall to wall people and traffic to a crowded park is helicopter parenting.

Yes, because clearly I was talking about 3 year olds

Oh wait, no I wasn't. You just made that up.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

We live in different time...yeah I could walk up the street to friend's houses and to the store or school in the 70s/80s, but that's not a very common thing today. I would never let my child walk around anywhere alone - that's the way they get snatched or injured. Honestly I would say around 12-13 would be the age that I would let them out of the house alone. That's just common sense.

How are they supposed to get to school then? Would/do you walk them to school and back every day even when they're 10-11 years old? 12-13 is absurd. By that time in my day we were walking/bicycling/taking transit across town, either by our self or with a friend. As long as we weren't out too late.

It's the pussification of society I guess. Huckleberry Finn 2012 would have Huck and Tom go on the "adventures" with their parents watching their every move.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

That's difficult to believe, but I'm sure it happens...still, personal experiences don't transfer to what is and is not acceptable. I think under most of today's circumstances, 6 years old is very young to be walking to a store alone. It may not be what some people want to hear, but it's true.

And how - objectively - are "today's circumstances" different from those in the past? And no, Al-Kayda terrists aren't going to snatch your kid on their way to school.

This just sounds like lazy parenting to me. Far easier to trap your kid inside & supervised than to teach them to be able to take care of themselves.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I concur 100%. Parent of two kids (aged 6 and 4).

Thank you.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

And how - objectively - are "today's circumstances" different from those in the past? And no, Al-Kayda terrists aren't going to snatch your kid on their way to school.

This just sounds like lazy parenting to me. Far easier to trap your kid inside & supervised than to teach them to be able to take care of themselves.

I'm not talking about trapping kids in the house, but a 6 year old IS NOT able to take care of himself and you can be charged with neglect for allowing children that young to go about unsupervised. I am stating this as a teacher and a parent.

Like I said, come back and talk about this when you have a child. I believe everything about your stance would be different.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

Have a child and then get back to us.

So I guess you at least have one, preferably two (every child is different) kids that have reached the age of 12-13? If not you're talking out of your ass as much as you claim the rest of us are. How do you even know that those who don't agree with you don't have children (assume much?) or didn't have to care for a younger sibling or just children (for all you know it could be my profession). Anyway, there are a lot of people who don't agree with you, I know my mom wouldn't and last time I checked she did in fact have children.

Like vid, at 6 I went to school and the store (buying candy) by myself. At 13 I went to clubs and bars and drank and partied! (probably not that easy anymore nowadays in the Netherlands either cause they check ID's now and you have to be 16). You wanting to keep your kids in the house untill 13 is just a recipe for disaster in my opinion (stressed), you're free to raise your kids as you see fit of course but I can't imagen how kids wouldn't rebel against that in some form or other. Get back to us when they reach that age please.

Maybe a lot has to do with environment and culture, I see kids 6 years and younger playing on the streets all the time. There's nothing wrong with that especially if they're in a group of friends or with a slightly older sibling. You have to give kids freedom and the oppurtunity to assert themselves. If as a society you instill fear in them and everyone keeps their kids inside, it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy. A lot of things about American society and suburban living are starting to make sense.

I remember walking the gritty streets of (pre 92 Olympic) Barcelona at age 10 or so. Heroine siringes, heavy traffic, we knew to stay away from it because our parents raised us that way and didn't keep us sheltered, locked up in the house. What are you going to do when the day comes your teenager runs away from home and encounters all those things and different kinds of people (tolerance is another issue here) and all that?

I was basically raised with 100% freedom, the rules my mom (parents divorced) did have I largely ignored (poor her). She put up with it because my brother and I were good kids who did well in school, never did drugs, didn't get girls pregnant and were never arrested. Sure it made for many sleepless nights for my mom, but then again she still worries about stupid shit when it comes to us, it's part of having kids I guess, but you have to let that go.

Anyway, underaged drinking only became a problem here when rules got stricter. It's just so damn obvious that generally things work like that. This country doesn't have the ridiculously low rates of teen drug use, teen pregnancy and crime rates because we keep our kids sheltered.

[SHiRO]

On top of that, guess where kids are happiest. And surprise surprise, where do kids have it the shittiest? UK and US...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6360517.stm

btw I went on living on my own at 19 and I had my first job at 15. At 16 I was responsible for shifts at a pizza restaurant (don't ask which one ) So don't even try to come up with the "living with your parents at 30" shit. That's more common in Italy and Spain, not here.

[SHiRO]

More anecdotes to highlight the difference in culture...

-We have/had something called "Tienertour" here, which basically is an ultracheap train ticket for teens. I first went when I was 13, I think I remember it was valid for 4 seperate days and in the summer holiday you could take the train to go explore the country. To this day, that was the trip (one of 4) that took me the furthest north in the country, never been further north (in country) since then.

-My brother used to drive a delivery truck and one night he was driving with his girlfriend and they saw a large group of children in the age group 8-12. It was pouring rain and they seemed lost so he stopped. Turns out it was a scouting group (boys and girls) who where on a dropping (basically they get dropped somewhere and have to find their way back, don't know if the scouts in the US do it?). They were really far from where they should have been so he took the entire group in the back of his van between the boxes and helped them along. It was a very funny story because kids that age can be real smartasses.

Anyway, nowadays with cell phones and GPS there's even less to worry about with your children getting lost.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

So I guess you at least have one, preferably two (every child is different) kids that have reached the age of 12-13? If not you're talking out of your ass as much as you claim the rest of us are. How do you even know that those who don't agree with you don't have children (assume much?) or didn't have to care for a younger sibling or just children (for all you know it could be my profession). Anyway, there are a lot of people who don't agree with you, I know my mom wouldn't and last time I checked she did in fact have children.

Like vid, at 6 I went to school and the store (buying candy) by myself. At 13 I went to clubs and bars and drank and partied! (probably not that easy anymore nowadays in the Netherlands either cause they check ID's now and you have to be 16). You wanting to keep your kids in the house untill 13 is just a recipe for disaster in my opinion (stressed), you're free to raise your kids as you see fit of course but I can't imagen how kids wouldn't rebel against that in some form or other. Get back to us when they reach that age please.

Maybe a lot has to do with environment and culture, I see kids 6 years and younger playing on the streets all the time. There's nothing wrong with that especially if they're in a group of friends or with a slightly older sibling. You have to give kids freedom and the oppurtunity to assert themselves. If as a society you instill fear in them and everyone keeps their kids inside, it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy. A lot of things about American society and suburban living are starting to make sense.

I remember walking the gritty streets of (pre 92 Olympic) Barcelona at age 10 or so. Heroine siringes, heavy traffic, we knew to stay away from it because our parents raised us that way and didn't keep us sheltered, locked up in the house. What are you going to do when the day comes your teenager runs away from home and encounters all those things and different kinds of people (tolerance is another issue here) and all that?

I was basically raised with 100% freedom, the rules my mom (parents divorced) did have I largely ignored (poor her). She put up with it because my brother and I were good kids who did well in school, never did drugs, didn't get girls pregnant and were never arrested. Sure it made for many sleepless nights for my mom, but then again she still worries about stupid shit when it comes to us, it's part of having kids I guess, but you have to let that go.

Anyway, underaged drinking only became a problem here when rules got stricter. It's just so damn obvious that generally things work like that. This country doesn't have the ridiculously low rates of teen drug use, teen pregnancy and crime rates because we keep our kids sheltered.

Wow...calm down. There is no need for the emotional responses to this - it's just a discussion. And thanks for the look into your childhood.

It's obvious from the responses on this subject whether people have children or not.

Like I said, your perspective changes when you have kids - I have two - and you'll find that out if or when you do. I can say with all certainty a high percentage of parents will not allow their 6 year old off of their street/stoop/yard/etc. That's just common sense. And the 13 year old around drug addicts/homeless/street people is not something that the vast majority would allow either. There really is no argument about this...I want you to think about this discussion when you have a child. It will all seem different then (if you're a responsible parent) - I promise.

[BIMBAM]

People are angry with you because:

A) You're implying that they couldn't possibly be parents when many of them are.
B) You're more than implying that they are bad parents.
C) What you say is common sense isn't normal in most of the world. It certainly wasn't where I grew up. Views on children and child rearing can be very culturally relative.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by BIMBAM

People are angry with you because:

A) You're implying that they couldn't possibly be parents when many of them are.
B) You're more than implying that they are bad parents.
C) What you say is common sense isn't normal in most of the world. It certainly wasn't where I grew up. Views on children and child rearing can be very culturally relative.

People? There were only two others in the discussion, and neither has come forward to say they are parents. I'm pretty sure neither of them were. I don't really think "people" are angry. Only one parent chimed in so far - and agreed with me.

This is not really up for debate. Good parents operate within certain parameters, and some of the things mentioned here are outside of those parameters. Period. All parents are not responsible people, but those who are do not let 6 year olds wander around alone. I'm sorry if that angers anyone, but I am pretty sure those on the other side of this discussion are not yet parents. Therein lies the problem.

[SHiRO]

TarheelJ, that wasn't an emotional response. But that's OK you didn't get the rest of the post either.

I'm 100% sure that once I have kids I would do some things differently than I anticipated. I'm also 100% sure that will not include locking them up in the house untill they're 13.

The difference here is not the having kids or not having kids thing, the difference is having totally different viewpoints, my viewpoint also heavily influenced from being from a totally different culture. Maybe I should let friends who are parents post on here, how are you going to explain it when they don't agree with you (and they DON'T agree with you).

And since we're predicting things for eachother now, let me do one for you; when your kids turn 12-13 your perspective will probably have changed as well (at least I hope so), because precious little teenagers are going to put up with being held prisoner and that will come back to bite you in the ass one way or the other. Your kid hanging around the streetpeople/drugdealers might not be your choice once it comes to that...

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

TarheelJ, that wasn't an emotional response. But that's OK you didn't get the rest of the post either.

I'm 100% sure that once I have kids I would do some things differently than I anticipated. I'm also 100% sure that will not include locking them up in the house untill they're 13.

The difference here is not the having kids or not having kids thing, the difference is having totally different viewpoints, my viewpoint also heavily influenced from being from a totally different culture. Maybe I should let friends who are parents post on here, how are you going to explain it when they don't agree with you (and they DON'T agree with you).

And since we're predicting things for eachother now, let me do one for you; when your kids turn 12-13 your perspective will probably have changed as well (at least I hope so), because precious little teenagers are going to put up with being held prisoner and that will come back to bite you in the ass one way or the other. Your kid hanging around the streetpeople/drugdealers might not be your choice once it comes to that...

Good God...you're the only talking about "locking them up" and "being held prisoner". I never suggested any such thing. Don't put words in my mouth.

I have two kids, ages 9 and 13. I am a teacher and a parent. There is a big difference in perspective, and I'm sorry you don't yet realize that. This started with a simple comment, and as usual, someone like you comes along and blows it out of the water. It isn't all that important, and I don't care if you believe it or not. You will one day.

Now, talk amongst yourselves. I don't feel like arguing with you.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

This is not really up for debate. Good parents operate within certain parameters, and some of the things mentioned here are outside of those parameters. Period.

Agreed. Making inmates of your children is not good parenting.

All parents are not responsible people, but those who are do not let 6 year olds wander around alone.

There's nothing wrong with letting your 6 year old play in the park or playground down the street or let him/her walk to school or the cornerstore. In fact, I'm pretty sure that more accidents happen in the home to kids anyway.
It's especially OK if they're with friends or a slightly older sibling. And if it's not OK for a 6 year old (all kids are different), then it certainly is OK for a 8 year old or a 10 years old. What's not OK is to keep your 12 year old locked up in the house because that most certainly will cause problems.

I'm sorry if that angers anyone, but I am pretty sure those on the other side of this discussion are not yet parents. Therein lies the problem.

No the problem is that you can't accept that there are other cultures and other viewpoints. You probably don't even realize you are a very small minority that agrees that it's a good idea to rob 12 year olds from basic freedom.