YVR - Airport & Destinations Discussion

[mezzanine]

^ good to hear, but it would be nice to see a qantas tail fin at YVR...

[Gordon]

When did China Eastern increase flights to yvr

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

^ good to hear, but it would be nice to see a qantas tail fin at YVR...

There used to be, for many years, going back to the 1960s. At one point, for a short time, Qantas even had a YVR-Tahiti scheduled nonstop ... hard to believe, but true.

[Valley_Refugee]

Qantas is highly unlikely. They are in deep trouble and cutting long-haul routes. AC and Air New Zealand (with a change in Auckland) probably have the market well-covered. Plus, Qantas has leveraged American and WestJet codeshares/interlines from LAX for Vancouver service.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee

Qantas is highly unlikely. They are in deep trouble and cutting long-haul routes. AC and Air New Zealand (with a change in Auckland) probably have the market well-covered. Plus, Qantas has leveraged American and WestJet codeshares/interlines from LAX for Vancouver service.

Yes, I know Qantas is in deep touble, and won't be coming back to YVR. Interestingly, I read (I forget where) that now even Australia is feeling the "siphoning-off" of customers by Emirates, and to a lesser exent, Qatar Airways, both of which have acccess to Australia's major cities.

I used to think it would be great to have Emirates into YVR (they got SEA-TAC, anyway), but know I realize how parasitic EK is, like a giant squid, sucking passsenger traffic from North American, European, and Oceanic countries.

Lets hope those 787s for service to India arrive ASAP, and as for an "Eastern" transit point, Istanbul would be ideal for Vancouver (into the Middle East, Africa ....)... although that's a LONG way off, if ever.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee

Qantas is highly unlikely. They are in deep trouble and cutting long-haul routes. AC and Air New Zealand (with a change in Auckland) probably have the market well-covered. Plus, Qantas has leveraged American and WestJet codeshares/interlines from LAX for Vancouver service.

Had a friend do the YVR-LAX run, and was told that 2/3 of the seats were connecting to Qantas flights.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I used to think it would be great to have Emirates into YVR (they got SEA-TAC, anyway), but know I realize how parasitic EK is, like a giant squid, sucking passsenger traffic from North American, European, and Oceanic countries.

What's wrong with this? Transit passengers is the core of their business strategy.

[mezzanine]

Hmmm...

Air Canada discount line set for takeoff
BRENT JANG - TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jul. 30 2012, 6:21 PM EDT


An arbitrator has selected Air Canada’s final offer to forge a new contract for pilots, clearing the way for management’s proposal to launch an international discount airline.
...
The discount leisure carrier is to be based in Vancouver. Air Canada is planning an ownership structure that would keep its stake at less than 50 per cent, while giving minority stakes to a foreign airline and a financial player yet to be confirmed.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...rticle4450393/

[YVR Bruce]

Originally Posted by deasine

What's wrong with this? Transit passengers is the core of their business strategy.

Canada's strategy toward Gulf carriers seems to me to be an unusually enlightened one. It confounds me why anyone, much less this site moderator, if that is the case - would be so keen to outsource such a major national service (CDN global air travel).

Take a look at the impact on BA and Qantas. They have been hit v badly by EK with national employment impacts. BA and QF people no doubt look on with envy to Canada's policy re EK.

I operate a company within the full reach of asian competition. Perhaps Deasine might volunteer his/her livelihood. With the stated attitude, it would be comforting to learn that those in favour of EK at YVR have full exposure to such one-sided trade.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

Canada's strategy toward Gulf carriers seems to me to be an unusually enlightened one. It confounds me why anyone, much less this site moderator, if that is the case - would be so keen to outsource such a major national service (CDN global air travel).

Take a look at the impact on BA and Qantas. They have been hit v badly by EK with national employment impacts. BA and QF people no doubt look on with envy to Canada's policy re EK.

I operate a company within the full reach of asian competition. Perhaps Deasine might volunteer his/her livelihood. With the stated attitude, it would be comforting to learn that those in favour of EK at YVR have full exposure to such one-sided trade.

I just commented that their business strategy is based on transit passengers. Secondly, my positions do not affect my ability to moderate. Moderators are clearly allowed to discuss in affairs but only need to step into a dispute when needed. This is the position that all moderators at SSP:Vancouver have been using.

The impact the gulf state carriers will make to Canadian carriers cannot be compared to the impact they have made to European carriers, not unless they gain fifth freedom access at European airports. For Europe, I don't really need to explain, you can't even book a ticket to Europe from the airlines website.

For routes to the pacific, transpacific routes or routes over the North Pole are shorter from every point in the country:

Originally Posted by Statistics from GCMAP

2 segment path: 10990 mi
YVR (49°11'38"N 123°11'04"W) DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) 1.4° (N) 7306 mi
DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) HKG (22°18'32"N 113°54'53"E) 80.1° (E) 3684 mi

Direct path:
YVR (49°11'38"N 123°11'04"W) HKG (22°18'32"N 113°54'53"E) 309.1° (NW) 6392 mi

Originally Posted by Statistics from GCMAP

2 segment path: 10583 mi
YYZ (43°40'38"N 79°37'50"W) DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) 40.4° (NE) 6899 mi
DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) HKG (22°18'32"N 113°54'53"E) 80.1° (E) 3684 mi

Direct Path:
YYZ (43°40'38"N 79°37'50"W) HKG (22°18'32"N 113°54'53"E) 346.4° (N) 7810 mi

The only markets Gulf State carriers can potentially affect are routes around the gulf and routes to India. Even then, it really doesn't greatly affect Canadian carriers, because most of the business on these routes are on European carriers and Asian carriers. From the west, all connection points are pretty equal. From the East, Europe still retains the advantage of geography, and if Finnair were a bit more aggressive in its routes, it would have the best position.

Originally Posted by Statistics from GCMAP

2 segment path: 8723 mi
YVR (49°11'38"N 123°11'04"W) HKG (22°18'32"N 113°54'53"E) 309.1° (NW) 6392 mi
HKG (22°18'32"N 113°54'53"E) DEL (28°34'07"N 77°06'44"E) 288.4° (W) 2331 mi
2 segment path: 8914 mi
YVR (49°11'38"N 123°11'04"W) LHR (51°28'39"N 0°27'41"W) 34.4° (NE) 4723 mi
LHR (51°28'39"N 0°27'41"W) DEL (28°34'07"N 77°06'44"E) 80.0° (E) 4191 mi
2 segment path: 8665 mi
YVR (49°11'38"N 123°11'04"W) DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) 1.4° (N) 7306 mi
DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) DEL (28°34'07"N 77°06'44"E) 75.5° (E) 1360 mi

Originally Posted by Statistics from GCMAP

2 segment path: 7747 mi
YYZ (43°40'38"N 79°37'50"W) LHR (51°28'39"N 0°27'41"W) 51.6° (NE) 3556 mi
LHR (51°28'39"N 0°27'41"W) DEL (28°34'07"N 77°06'44"E) 80.0° (E) 4191 mi
2 segment path: 8259 mi
YYZ (43°40'38"N 79°37'50"W) DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) 40.4° (NE) 6899 mi
DXB (25°15'10"N 55°21'52"E) DEL (28°34'07"N 77°06'44"E) 75.5° (E) 1360 mi

I can't see how EK would have a major impact on business at YVR.

I find it pretty interesting that you brought up the BA and QF case. I've done a piece on this, and without a doubt the Kangaroo-route has been greatly affected by competition from gulf states. But it really isn't as simple as that; there are many other factors:

1. Every carrier is affected by fuel prices and fuel prices do put tremendous stress on the viability of a long-haul route. BA and QF are not making any profits on their long-haul routes between Australia and Europe. BA's premium cabin ticket prices to Australia are sometimes comparable to some of their routes to Asia and the United States: but notice it takes a lot less fuel to fly to those destinations.
2. Geographic positioning of QF's "Kangaroo Route" partner BA is not strategically placed and has no advantage to its competitors. For passengers connecting to BA to other destinations in Europe other than LHR, they would essentially be overflying to reach their final destination (keep in mind all routes to Europe connect at SIN, or BKK/HKG, so that makes a total of 2 connections). Not counting Gulf-state carriers, QF and BAs partnership have also been challenged by other carriers such as SQ and CX. Moving forward, this is only going to get worse with more Chinese carriers stepping into the picture. In fact, CZ cleverly brands their Europe to Australia route via Guangzhou as the "Canton Route." CAPA has done an analysis and finds carriers such as CZ are pushing airfare prices so low that European carriers can't possibly match or else they would be loosing profit on each sale. They've even got some of the traffic between Australia and the United States because of their low prices, even though it's a much longer route.
3. Australia has really opened the door to gulf-state carriers, not only by granting them more slots and allowing them to increase capacity, but also allowing Australian airports as connection cities to New Zealand. Essentially, this increases competition not only for routes between Europe and Australia, but within their backyards. EK has fifth freedom routes at MEL, SYD, and BNE.

At the end of the day, there's a fixed pie businesses need to understand. There's most likely not going to be a larger pie anytime soon. The more carriers come in, the more share of the pie they are going to get, and the less of a pie you can have. If you can't compete with other carriers, you get a smaller share. Plain and simple.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

Canada's strategy toward Gulf carriers seems to me to be an unusually enlightened one. It confounds me why anyone, much less this site moderator, if that is the case - would be so keen to outsource such a major national service (CDN global air travel).

I disagree. the feds blocking gulf carriers from more access to YVR limits choices for people who fly internationally.

[YYCguys]

I recently used YVR after not been through there is almost a year! What is going on in the A/B wing? Lots of construction. I seem to remember hearing that there was an expansion going to happen, but earlier this month, my take on it is that this looks like just renovation to the interior and not a footprint change.

I guess I'm too lazy to look back into this thread too far to find out. Maybe someone who frequents this thread can direct me to the appropriate pages or website links with details, timelines, and/or renderings?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

I recently used YVR after not been through there is almost a year! What is going on in the A/B wing? Lots of construction. I seem to remember hearing that there was an expansion going to happen, but earlier this month, my take on it is that this looks like just renovation to the interior and not a footprint change.

I guess I'm too lazy to look back into this thread too far to find out. Maybe someone who frequents this thread can direct me to the appropriate pages or website links with details, timelines, and/or renderings?

having spoken with someone in YVR Sales, it seems that Pier B (and A) are being revamped and modernized, with West Jet as the main tenant. (apparently, this has been in the planning stages for several years already)

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

having spoken with someone in YVR Sales, it seems that Pier B (and A) are being revamped and modernized, with West Jet as the main tenant. (apparently, this has been in the planning stages for several years already)

Greetings from the Fairmont Hotel. I just flew in from SYD this morning and from what I can see definitely a lot going on on the A/B piers. Looks like they are building out of pier B closest the the terminal so a definite footprint change. But the info on the website is quite vague as to what is actually happening.
Looks like it will be a decent improvement !

[YYCguys]

Post 3950 has a pic of part of what is to come with the Pier A/B expansion, and in speaking with an airline employee working in that area of the airport, that particular rendering is in line with what he told me. He told me that there will be swing gates in the A/B area, enabling Westjet, which will be the primary tenant of the both the A and B piers, to have seamless transfers domestically and internationally. Whether this is actually executed as planned remains to be seen, of course.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I disagree. the feds blocking gulf carriers from more access to YVR limits choices for people who fly internationally.

Given the storm that Emirates seems to churn up, I'd very much like to see Qatar Airways, or even Turkish Airlines into YVR. We need something more than what we have regarding overseas connection points.

[casper]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I disagree. the feds blocking gulf carriers from more access to YVR limits choices for people who fly internationally.

We have the experiment going on south of the boarder. A year or two after the Emirates enters the market, we will see if it has an impact on the European carriers. Seattle has already lost SAS.

[YVR Bruce]

I can't see how EK would have a major impact on business at YVR. ..... Plain and simple.[/QUOTE]


That analysis does not square with that of EK, who clearly want into the YYZ and YVR markets. Indeed, the Dubai goverment's analysis too; the latter seemed happy to play hardball with Canada at the national and NATO / military level trying to force their way in.

Greater China is now heading toward 10 heavies a day from YVR, and it would seem that EK and perhaps SQ were calculating that India may be worth the equiv. of say 5/day in 10 yrs time. 25% of that would be a big hub-feeder. For what local and national commercial benefit?

[deasine]

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

That analysis does not square with that of EK, who clearly want into the YYZ and YVR markets. Indeed, the Dubai goverment's analysis too; the latter seemed happy to play hardball with Canada at the national and NATO / military level trying to force their way in.

Greater China is now heading toward 10 heavies a day from YVR, and it would seem that EK and perhaps SQ were calculating that India may be worth the equiv. of say 5/day in 10 yrs time. 25% of that would be a big hub-feeder. For what local and national commercial benefit?

EK may, on the surface, want YVR but I can tell you YYZ is where the money is. And flying an A380 is a clear indication their YYZ-DXB is profiting. While I don't have concrete evidence, I don't think the SEA-DXB route is their most popular route right now, where some note an average of perhaps 5 J-Class revenue passengers. Aside from transporting passengers in the aviation business, transporting cargo is also an important factor but this is something I'm not in the position to analyze about.

Sure there might be no real local/national commercial benefit for passengers bound for the Indian market from Canada/North America. What will benefit is the added jobs that will result as these airlines hire for a YVR base, or sign on business with a contracting operator that will need to hire more people to service these airlines. But this perhaps doesn't amount to anything substantial in a national sense. However, the Canadian share of the Indian market has been low to begin with, let me explain:

• Air Canada does not have any flights to India and relies on codeshares from Lufthansa via Frankfurt, or Jet Airways via Brussels.
• In the West (YVR), there are no direct routes operated by AC to any of Air Canada's partners related to the Indian travel market. All of this market is taken over by Asian Carriers (Cathay Pacific with many flights to India from HKG, and China Airlines, also with many daily connections via TPE base), or by European Carriers (British Airways via LHR, or Lufthansa via FRA). Where AC will benefit is if passengers book an AC codeshare operated by Lufthansa because of Lufthansa-ACs sharing profits scheme.
• In the East, it's again back to Lufthansa and Jet Airways. Jet Airways has fifth-freedom rights at its Brussels "hub" and thus operates to YYZ. This codeshare relationship with Jet Airways is really limited and has not expanded to flights to Asia. If AC can do this, and capture part of the North America-Indian travel market via an Asian city, where AC operates one leg, and Jet Ariways operates the other, this is when they can begin increasing their presence. But until then, there is ot much real revenue benefit for AC. Again, it goes back to the Lufthansa relationship.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by deasine

EK may, on the surface, want YVR but I can tell you YYZ is where the money is. And flying an A380 is a clear indication their YYZ-DXB is profiting.

Well, yes and no to the bolded part. EK wants daily into YYZ, that is their ultimate goal, all this other talk of serving YVR and YYC is just to get daily rights into YYZ. When the government has called this bluff (and offered rights to fly into both airports with no additional YYZ they have rejected it).

They operate the A388 on the route because with only 3x weekly service they have to make the most of it, and that is why they deploy their largest aircraft there. To get the most seats (first, biz, and economy) into YYZ every week.