Ranking US/Canadian cities by pedestrian intensity.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by Chef

I don't want to get into one of the silly pissing matches that some posters here specialize in but to suggest that the pedestrian experience in MSP is less than in Columbus, Richmond, Louisville, Indianapolis, Hartford, Providence, Cincinnati, or Kansas City is absurdly misinformed. That is pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

I never compared it to any of those cities. What I said is that a large percentage of the downtown (even the western half) is covered by parking lots and above ground garages. You said that was not true, even though it absolutely is true. It is not just the eastern half of downtown/the area around the Dome that gives over a huge percentage of its land to parking. The western half of downtown is also guilty of that.

I'm not concerned about how its pedestrian intensity compares to those other cities you listed, as that had nothing to do with anything I said. You are making a strawman argument by even bringing up all those other cities. That is not what we were talking about.

[ColDayMan]

Originally Posted by Chef

I don't want to get into one of the silly pissing matches that some posters here specialize in but to suggest that the pedestrian experience in MSP is less than in Columbus, Richmond, Louisville, Indianapolis, Hartford, Providence, Cincinnati, or Kansas City is absurdly misinformed. That is pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

It may not be less but it certainly isn't more than about half of those cities listed. Meaning, it's comparable.

[Derek]

Yay the butthurt is starting!

[cabasse]

i too prefer segun's list. things have been changing very quickly over the past decade, and a number of cities on Cirrus' list are probably much different now than even 5 years ago. midtown atlanta's pedestrian environment has been growing by leaps and bounds with the influx of thousands of new residents. those condo towers have been filling up fast, and they're in the process of building new apartment highrises even in this down market. downtown is also in the middle of a total about face with all the new streetscape beautification projects going on; the street car (u/c) is going to change downtown more than anything built since centennial olympic park.

i'm not butthurt because i know things have improved hugely since the time i joined this forum 10 years ago, and regardless of various opinions here at SSP, the city i currently reside in is going to continue to improve. (especially if we get lucky and pass the t-splost tomorrow!)

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Boquillas

I'd argue Austin is too high. Though it has walkable neighborhoods around the university, the legend is different than the reality. Austin is a sprawling post-war sunbelt city outside of the university/cbd areas, and I would argue the CBDs of Fort Worth and San Antonio, while having fewer residents, are more human-scaled and walkable than the broad grid of Austin's downtown, which was designed at a scale thought to suit (at the time) the center of TX gov't.

Replace it with Denver, which might even be Tier 3 in many areas.

I sort of agree. At least, we don't deserve to be on there for any reason connected to our current built environment. At least not citywide, yet. Still, Austinites do love to get out and walk and enjoy their city. Even in my neighborhood which is hardly urban, there are plenty of people walking around, catching the bus and riding their bicycle for transportation. And in the areas where Austin is urban and dense, it's very urban. West Campus is one of the most urban areas of the state with one of the highest densities.

I do disagree with you that grid system layouts are less friendly to pedestrians, the logic being that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, and the grid system design delivers that.

I'll say one thing. I have been viewing all building permits and site elevations lately on the city's website, and one thing I did notice is there are a ton of urban pedestrian oriented projects in the works for just about every corner of Austin (except for West Austin where growth is discouraged).

[Cirrus]

OK guys, here's my only response to the hurt feelings: Just about everybody has a walkable central business district. To rank highly on a list like this, your city's walkability has to extend far beyond those areas.

When folks complain that a low ranking isn't fair because their CBD has gotten so much better in the last 10 years, that actually reinforces my opinion that their city belongs in the lower tiers, because it tells me they aren't even thinking about walkability outside the CBD.

Cheers.

[cabasse]

good clarification, to which i respond: the up and coming westside district, tons of condo and retail growth along the beltline corridor and recently completed developments/new retail in downtown decatur should also be mentioned; even the buckhead business district is rapidly becoming much more walkable, as strange as that might sound.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by cabasse

even the buckhead business district is rapidly becoming much more walkable, as strange as that might sound.

I'm not sure what it is about Atlanta forumers relative to other comparable cities, but there appears to be no appreciation of nuance.

Buckhead isn't walkable. It's postwar suburban sprawl. If Buckhead is walkable, everywhere is walkable, and we might as well shut down the thread.

Manhattan is the same as Alpharetta, because both have at least one sidewalk, and that's that, I guess.

[mhays]

"Appreciation of nuance"....well put.

[cabasse]

i can appreciate the difference between buckhead and manhattan, so why the sarcasm. i didn't even attempt to draw a comparison, and no way in hell would i even mention alpharetta. the two are completely different. all i said was that it was becoming more walkable. i'm regretting even mentioning it now.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by cabasse

good clarification, to which i respond: the up and coming westside district, tons of condo and retail growth along the beltline corridor and recently completed developments/new retail in downtown decatur should also be mentioned; even the buckhead business district is rapidly becoming much more walkable, as strange as that might sound.

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not sure what it is about Atlanta forumers relative to other comparable cities, but there appears to be no appreciation of nuance.

Buckhead isn't walkable. It's postwar suburban sprawl. If Buckhead is walkable, everywhere is walkable, and we might as well shut down the thread.

Manhattan is the same as Alpharetta, because both have at least one sidewalk, and that's that, I guess.

Talk about the appreciation of nuance - Cabasse didn't say that Buckhead is walkable. He said it's becoming more walkable. Neither did he say Alpharetta is Manhattan.

I don't see how any one with normal human reasoning can deduct and then extrapolate that from what he wrote. But then again - the extrapolation comes from someone who states that one can easily find streets without sidewalks within easy walking distance of Five Points - and then I realize human reasoning is not really what I'm dealing with.

[mhays]

True, Cabasse's statement made sense. I was agreeing generally.

[Omaharocks]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not sure what it is about Atlanta forumers relative to other comparable cities, but there appears to be no appreciation of nuance.

Buckhead isn't walkable. It's postwar suburban sprawl. If Buckhead is walkable, everywhere is walkable, and we might as well shut down the thread.

Manhattan is the same as Alpharetta, because both have at least one sidewalk, and that's that, I guess.

Ironic then, that you took Cabasse's statement that Buckhead is "rapidly becoming much more walkable", and then made black/white claims about the current walkability of the place. I'm not feeling that the lack of nuance is with the Atlanta forumers - they are merely being defensive in regards to lists that have been created - which by their nature are going to lack nuance.

Statements saying certain cities are "hopeless" with regards to walkability, is a pretty strong example of a lack of nuance.

[cabasse]

christ, not all atlanta forumers are unreasonable. i would never try to compare atlanta to any of the great cities in Cirrus' top tiers, but i don't think it's unreasonable to say it's getting pretty close to "the great mass in the middle" - cities like denver or indianapolis. i didn't mean to get dragged into yet another measuring contest; this is all opinion anyway.

Originally Posted by Omaharocks

Statements saying certain cities are "hopeless" with regards to walkability, is a pretty strong example of a lack of nuance.

indeed! nashville and charlotte are making big strides in revitalizing (or rebuilding) their urban cores and adjacent neighborhoods, and to call them hopeless is the epitome of a lack of nuance.

[Boquillas]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I sort of agree. At least, we don't deserve to be on there for any reason connected to our current built environment. At least not citywide, yet. Still, Austinites do love to get out and walk and enjoy their city. Even in my neighborhood which is hardly urban, there are plenty of people walking around, catching the bus and riding their bicycle for transportation. And in the areas where Austin is urban and dense, it's very urban. West Campus is one of the most urban areas of the state with one of the highest densities.

I do disagree with you that grid system layouts are less friendly to pedestrians, the logic being that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, and the grid system design delivers that.

I'll say one thing. I have been viewing all building permits and site elevations lately on the city's website, and one thing I did notice is there are a ton of urban pedestrian oriented projects in the works for just about every corner of Austin (except for West Austin where growth is discouraged).

Don't get me wrong-- I still place Austin above the other TX cities, just not so high on the list nationwide. Where Austin is walkable, it beats every other Texas city hands-down, plus there's more to do in its walkable districts than say Houston or Dallas. I don't have a problem with Austin's grid either (I prefer grids), just the width of the streets. Believe me, San Antonio wishes it had the kind of pedestrian-friendly developments Austin has had over the past few years. However, I still prefer the scale of San Antonio's few pedestrian-friendly areas. Houston Street is only two lanes, and the only five and six-lane streets downtown are on the outskirts-- Santa Rosa and Cesar Chavez.

But I'm still of the opinion that all TX cities are a long way from being in the top half of any list

[Vancity4life]

Dunno...Vancouver Should not be counted out of the running because...in terms of downtown living density...NYC is #1 obviously...San Fran is #2...but here's where the surprise comes in...Vancouver, BC, Canada is #3 and it's projected to be # 2 by 2020...I grew up in Van and I assumed there's always parties everywhere at all times at the night...the first time i realized this wasnt the case was when i was 14 in downtown portland oregan....this was the first time i said What the F*ck? A lot of American downtowns are empty apparently...This was bizzare to me because It didn't matter what neighborhood or time it was in Vancouver, It was Lively, and F*cking Packed...It's weird that as a canadian the first time I was legitimitely Culture Shocked was Downtown at Midnight in A Huge American City (LA, Portland, Seattle) and there was no one to be seen... Was this the zombie apocalypse? nope....just american cities I guess...shit....

[jaxg8r1]

Originally Posted by Vancity4life

Dunno...Vancouver Should not be counted out of the running because...in terms of downtown living density...NYC is #1 obviously...San Fran is #2...but here's where the surprise comes in...Vancouver, BC, Canada is #3 and it's projected to be # 2 by 2020...I grew up in Van and I assumed there's always parties everywhere at all times at the night...the first time i realized this wasnt the case was when i was 14 in downtown portland oregan....this was the first time i said What the F*ck? A lot of American downtowns are empty apparently...This was bizzare to me because It didn't matter what neighborhood or time it was in Vancouver, It was Lively, and F*cking Packed...It's weird that as a canadian the first time I was legitimitely Culture Shocked was Downtown at Midnight in A Huge American City (LA, Portland, Seattle) and there was no one to be seen... Was this the zombie apocalypse? nope....just american cities I guess...shit....

I suppose I've had different experiences. Vancouver is truly impressive but I find that for a lot of the peninsula it is lacking in activity at night, especially for having such high density. Obviously there are places that are busy, but thats the case in just about all major cities.

Admittedly, most of the time I've spent in Vancouver has been on Davie Street (which is busy), but on the walks back to the hotel (stayed in multiple areas on parts of the peninsula and granville as well) the transition is dramatic.

I find Old Town in Portland, as well as Capital Hill in Seattle to be just as busy as Downtown Vancouver. But each has its own flavor, and DT Vancouver has significantly more residential density than the other two.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Vancity4life

Dunno...Vancouver Should not be counted out of the running because...in terms of downtown living density...NYC is #1 obviously...San Fran is #2...but here's where the surprise comes in...Vancouver, BC, Canada is #3 and it's projected to be # 2 by 2020.

I think you are referring to city proper densities here. Both Montreal and Toronto have higher densities in the central city - and significantly more pedestrian activity. Not to say Vancouver isn't pushing above its weight in this respect , as it is.

[agrant]

I can't speak for other cities, but the only streets in downtown Vancouver that have any noticeable pedestrian activity are the ones with retail. I'm sure many other cities are the same that way. So for Vancouver - Robson, Davie, Denman, Granville are the big ones downtown. Also, areas adjacent to water during the summer, and Water Street in Gastown. Areas around transportation hubs (Broadway and Cambie, also Broadway and Commercial Dr.) are pretty busy all year. High density residential does not mean there will be a whole lot of people wondering around. You have to have places these pedestrians will want to be walking to...

[kool maudit]

vancouver is not some sort of 24 hour party town. vegan potluck until 3 maybe.