Why does the American rust belt do so much more badly than the Canadian side

[flar]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

Yes, but keep in mind that Ontario (primarily Toronto of course) is by far the largest recipient of international migrants in Canada.

In any event, I'm not suggesting that there has been a huge emptying of Ontario's manufacturing belt to the promised land of Alberta. I just don't accept your proposition that there is nowhere in Canada for people in Ontario to move to.

Curiously, I'm doing the reverse migration, from the West to Toronto, in a couple of weeks.

My point is not that there's nowhere to go, it's just that people aren't making permanent moves for work. The area around my hometown has lots of skilled trades with experience in oil and gas (Sarnia area) and a lot of them have went out west for work, but they generally leave their families behind and maintain their permanent residence in Ontario. Just in my own family, four have went out west for work this year, but it's all temporary. There's no work in Sarnia right now, but this will have to become a more permanent condition to get people to sell their homes and move.

[kevike]

Originally Posted by Onn

Like others have said here that's probably because people and businesses have no where else to go in Ontario. Those are the big cities! Last year in college here in the US I had a Canadian professor who teaches Canadian Politics here and US Politics at the University of Windsor. He travels acorss the border to teach the class. He was telling us how he always asks Canadian students where in Canada they thought their future careers would be. They would always tell him somewhere in the Ontario region. By contrast, he would tell them that for his US students their job possibilities coud be in a number of states around the country.

The real problem for the US side is that we simply have too much space. So many manufacturing plants are being torn down or simply abandon. A couple of old GM plants were recently torn down in Metro Detroit, with the Packard plant in Detroit being next. There simply is no industry that could ever fill that amount of space anymore. It's also an issue with office space, with a lot of former auto supplier or technology company offices sitting empty. Retail and very high end office space are doing alright, but these aren't major projects were talking about here. At least not since 2007...When housing prices were high everyone was talking like they were rich. Many housing prices literally doubled in value. Now since everything crashed people are saying prices will never go that high again.

I was really surpised about all of the windmills in Southern Ontario. Those weren't there just 10 years ago. We still have nothing like that in the rust belt states. They seem like a sensible idea to generate engery in rural areas that doesn't cost a lot. Only now are these states (not the frederal government) even talking about alternative forms of energy. Notice more solar pannels creeping up little by little. That is one area where the US has fallen sorely behind the curve.

You've already been set straight on the wind farms, here's some interesting information on solar energy-


"The CSP (solar power) market so far has a bright future. About 17.54 GW of power projects are under development worldwide, and the United States leads with about 8.67 GW, according to GTM Research. Spain ranks second with 4.46 GW, followed by China with 2.5 GW."


Others have suggested you have an agenda for misleading readers of this forum. I would guess that you're just the type who always assumes the worst of the US.

[jodelli]

Originally Posted by flar

There's no doubt that's where the jobs are, but most people don't want to move out there. Lots of people go temporarily. Few actually want to stay.

Originally Posted by Reesonov

Why have so many stayed then?

What has happened in my personal experience, including family, friends, and coworkers, is that Canadians have become increasingly mobile within our own country.

In my hometown of Windsor I have met people who have come here from places like Cape Breton, New Brunswick, and the Rock, nearly all who have kept in close touch with their original homes and periodically or permanently return there. Some headed to Alberta when things started to dry up here.

Myself included, seven family members and six friends of mine were all in Calgary at one time or other; all but four of us came back. And I like the place.

I myself have spent more time in the GTA in the last ten years than I did in the entire rest of my lifetime

It's not a trend, it's just circumstance.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

Very fitting analogy. Calgary's role/importance within Canada is just like Madison, Wisconsin's role/importance in the United States.

Of course I agree that none of Canada's major banks will move to western Canada, but you and flar might ask yourselves, if there is nowhere in Canada for under-employed Ontarians to move to, why have Calgary and Edmonton (and to a lesser extent, Vancouver) been the fastest growing cities in Canada for over a decade now?

Okay your sarcasm is well deserved..Calgary is more important to Canada then Madison is to the States..I was just pulling out the first small American westernish city off the top of my head, and Madison was the first place I thought of.

[mhays]

Westernish? It's in the Midwest, i.e. the middle east.

[Reesonov]

Originally Posted by Razor

Okay your sarcasm is well deserved..Calgary is more important to Canada then Madison is to the States..I was just pulling out the first small American westernish city off the top of my head, and Madison was the first place I thought of.

No problem. Just need to sometimes keep you viceroys in the capital accountable when it comes to keeping track of affairs out in the hinterland .

Interestingly, after a little digging around looking for statistics to support my argument, I learned that interprovincial migration has been usurped by international migration with respect to the main source of population growth in Calgary in the last five years. So, I'm beginning to consider the possibility that it is at least possible, even plausible, that you, jodelli, and flar have a point. Maybe.

[P. Alouishous]

I don't know if I'm from the wrong part of Ontario or the wrong social stratum, but the only people I know who moved to Alberta moved to the resort town of Banff in their early twenties to have fun for a few years.

I know a lot of people who moved to B.C. though. Most of them moved back after the charm wore off and they realized how much more expensive it is to live there.

A lot of people move far away when they're young for the adventure, but when it's time to settle down things would have to be pretty bad in the area you grew up if you're willing to abandon your family and only see them once or twice a year.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P. Alouishous

I don't know if I'm from the wrong part of Ontario or the wrong social stratum, but the only people I know who moved to Alberta moved to the resort town of Banff in their early twenties to have fun for a few years.

I know a lot of people who moved to B.C. though. Most of them moved back after the charm wore off and they realized how much more expensive it is to live there.

A lot of people move far away when they're young for the adventure, but when it's time to settle down things would have to be pretty bad in the area you grew up if you're willing to abandon your family and only see them once or twice a year.

Just thinking about it, I know quite a few people from Ontario who have moved west - almost all of them to Alberta or BC. All of them permanently.

Most of them are Franco-Ontarians, but I think this is just a reflection of the people I know in Ontario. I also know some anglos from Ontario who have moved west.

These tend to be people from Ottawa, Eastern Ontario and Northeastern Ontario. A few more distant family members and friends from Southern Ontario have also moved west.

Other than Ottawa Franco-Ontarians crossing the river to live in the neighbouring city of Gatineau in Quebec, this move west is the only significant number of interprovincial moves by Ontarians that I know personally that could resemble anything like a trend.

[bricky]

It's interesting how, judging from the Canadian comments here, there seems to be a lot less geographic mobility in Canada than in America. I get that no one wants to move to Saskatchewan or Newfoundland. Pretty much no one in America wants to move to Kansas either. But growing up around NY, a lot of people I know moved away from "the center of the universe" to places like North Carolina or Denver or rural Northern California. Not to mention LA, Washington, even a surprising number to Hong Kong. And I doubt that they will ever move back here permanently. That being said, salaries are definitely higher in NY/NJ than in North Carolina for example. But they moved anyway, I suppose because of cost of living or quality of life (more space). So it seems kind of odd that more Ontarians and even Torontonians (?) don't move to Calgary or Halifax or Vancouver.

[rousseau]

The one thing I do envy about the U.S. is the geographical variety you have. Take a look at the map of southern Ontario: we're basically blocked in. It's like an island here. The west is too far away, and you don't have the draw of a warmer climate the way the south or the west coast is for people in the U.S. northeast, and to the east we've got Quebec, which is forbidding due to the language difference (and language laws). In some ways we're sort of stuck.

We also have a much smaller population, so there's less to go to. Nobody in Toronto is going to "up and make a fresh start in Winnipeg," for example, though it happens the other way. I guess I'm speaking from a distinctly southern Ontario perspective.

Americans move all over the place. My sister is married to an American: they lived in Florida for a time, and now they're in the Finger Lakes region of New York. Many of the Americans I got to know while in Asia have moved all over the place since their return to the U.S.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by bricky

It's interesting how, judging from the Canadian comments here, there seems to be a lot less geographic mobility in Canada than in America.

I would disagree strongly with that. I've lived in three Province myself, and know countless people who have lived in 2+ Provinces. For many decades now people have flocked in droves from Newfoundland and Montreal to Toronto, from Ontario to Western Canada, from Saskatchewan and Manitoba to points East and West, from small towns to big cities, etc. I'd bet if you could find stats on the matter Canadians would be MORE mobile if anything.

So it seems kind of odd that more Ontarians and even Torontonians (?) don't move to Calgary or Halifax or Vancouver.

No. You're drawing this conclusion based on a few posts in an internet forum. If you want to find actual numbers, StatsCan might have some such relevant information on their website. As massive number of people in Calgary and Vancouver are from Ontario.

[mrnyc]

edite!

[mrnyc]

for the hater.. and any other more interested peeps -
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cleveland - csu's innovative wind corkscrew
at progressive field ballpark




downtown cleveland waterfront


proposal for lake erie off cleveland


brookville, oh


and the grand daddy of ohio wind turbines
bowling green, oh

[MolsonExport]

I read recently in the Economist that Canadians are the second-most mobile people on earth, but less than half as apt to move in a given period than their American counterparts, which are far and away the most mobile people.

[vid]

A lot of people from Thunder Bay moved to Alberta but come back to Thunder Bay quite regularly. It isn't uncommon to see really expensive shiny pickups or sports cars with Alberta plates in this city, driven by people who are from here and have come back as sort of an advertisement for why we should move west.

I don't personally know very many people who have moved to Alberta though. I know a lot who have moved to Vancouver (and a few went from there to Alberta), and I know of more people who moved from Toronto to Thunder Bay than the other way around.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by hamster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments

Ontario is now a recipient of the equalization payments after years of paying them to other parts of Canada.

No suprise that the west (AB, SK, MB) is the main payer.

There is nothing similar to this in the USA. No state shares state tax revenue with another state.

There may be some sharing at the federal level though, but that is mostly borrowed money anyway.

If Ontario had a less corrupt and smaller government this wouldn't be the case.

[vid]

If we had more than one political party to vote for we could make that a reality.

[Nexis4Jersey]

How bad is the corruption in Canada? I know in Quebec people get murdered over it , but whats the rest of Canada like? From down here it seems rather peaceful and functioning...

[vid]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

How bad is the corruption in Canada? I know in Quebec people get murdered over it , but whats the rest of Canada like? From down here it seems rather peaceful and functioning...

In Ontario it is mostly limited to either:

If it is a Liberal government, the Premier creates an agency of the provincial government, operating at arm's length, to do essentially nothing and staffs it with his friends, who all earn $100,000+ salaries

If it is a Conservative government, the Premier half-privatizes government departments by splitting them into a half dozen or so companies operating at arm's length, and appoints his friends to run them for $100,000+ salaries

There is also a third option:

The NDP is elected and all the teachers and nurses start earning $100,000 salaries. Hundreds of provincial agencies that don't do anything are created, but not staffed.

We also have that weird phenomenon where any project started by a previous government is cancelled and replaced with an identical programme when power changes hands. For example the 1990s NDP government planned new highways around my city. The PC government that was elected after them cancelled the project just as construction started, and then made a new plan for highways around my city. Just after construction started, the Liberals were elected, and they promptly cancelled that project then made a new plan for highways around my city. Construction has just begun, which is a good sign that the government is going to change hands so that they can be cancelled again, and then replaced by a new plan in about 8 years. Government's call this "commitment". Those of us who aren't blinded by partisan hackery call it "bullshit".

[Reesonov]

Originally Posted by vid

We also have that weird phenomenon where any project started by a previous government is cancelled and replaced with an identical programme when power changes hands. For example the 1990s NDP government planned new highways around my city. The PC government that was elected after them cancelled the project just as construction started, and then made a new plan for highways around my city. Just after construction started, the Liberals were elected, and they promptly cancelled that project then made a new plan for highways around my city. Construction has just begun, which is a good sign that the government is going to change hands so that they can be cancelled again, and then replaced by a new plan in about 8 years. Government's call this "commitment". Those of us who aren't blinded by partisan hackery call it "bullshit".

I love this country.