Canadian Retail Thread

[esquire]

Originally Posted by vanatox

I think the one in Winnipeg closed a long time ago.

I think it was around 2000... it was turned into an outlet store at that point, which itself closed around 2008 or so.

HR's only presence since then was a small cosmetics counter and personal shopping suite about the size of a regular mall store (as opposed to a department store), but now that will be closing after Christmas.

There does seem to be a certain critical mass that is required to support a Holt Renfrew store. The very small ones like the one that used to be in Winnipeg and the one that remains for now in Ottawa is probably not going to appeal to those who spend big on clothes... they would likely want more selection than what a small store can deliver.

[big W]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think it was around 2000... it was turned into an outlet store at that point, which itself closed around 2008 or so.

HR's only presence since then was a small cosmetics counter and personal shopping suite about the size of a regular mall store (as opposed to a department store), but now that will be closing after Christmas.

There does seem to be a certain critical mass that is required to support a Holt Renfrew store. The very small ones like the one that used to be in Winnipeg and the one that remains for now in Ottawa is probably not going to appeal to those who spend big on clothes... they would likely want more selection than what a small store can deliver.

Yeah I read the store is just under 3,000 sf. That is tiny and makes sense to just close it.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think it was around 2000... it was turned into an outlet store at that point, which itself closed around 2008 or so.

HR's only presence since then was a small cosmetics counter and personal shopping suite about the size of a regular mall store (as opposed to a department store), but now that will be closing after Christmas.

There does seem to be a certain critical mass that is required to support a Holt Renfrew store. The very small ones like the one that used to be in Winnipeg and the one that remains for now in Ottawa is probably not going to appeal to those who spend big on clothes... they would likely want more selection than what a small store can deliver.

At least in the case of Ottawa, I think Holt Renfew probably saw the writing on the wall with the entrance of Nordstrom and Simons in a much more desirable shopping district with much larger stores. It kind of seems they sat on their hands and weren't willing to invest in the market and now that other retailers are stepping in, it seems it's too late.

FWIW, I've never actually visited Holt Renfew, but I can give a very strong recommendation for Harry Rosen. Their service is, bar none, the best I've ever received.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

At least in the case of Ottawa, I think Holt Renfew probably saw the writing on the wall with the entrance of Nordstrom and Simons in a much more desirable shopping district with much larger stores. It kind of seems they sat on their hands and weren't willing to invest in the market and now that other retailers are stepping in, it seems it's too late.

FWIW, I've never actually visited Holt Renfew, but I can give a very strong recommendation for Harry Rosen. Their service is, bar none, the best I've ever received.

FWIW, my experience at Holt's has usually been a little better than at Harry Rosen (more consistently good at Holts, where Harry was hit-or-miss depending on the associate) and my experience at Nordstorm in the states has easily matched those two.

Part of me wonders though if my experience at Nordstrom can be attributed to the generally better service I seem to get in the states.

[big W]

I tend to get better service myself at Henry Singer (similar but a local Alberta company only in Edmonton and Calgary), which is right across from Holt in Manulife Place here in Edmonton. Harry Rosen is out in West Edmonton Mall so I barely ever venture there.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

FWIW, I've never actually visited Holt Renfew, but I can give a very strong recommendation for Harry Rosen. Their service is, bar none, the best I've ever received.

Harry Rosen service is impeccable. They're knowledge, polite, friendly, approachable, and a joy to chat with. You never ever feel sales pressure from their staff. Holt Renfrew staff are abrasive, snotty, condescending, and they've flat out lied to me trying to get a sale. It's night and day between the 2 retailers. If Holts gets more competition in their segment of the market, they're in trouble if they don't do a 180 when it comes to their staff. Saks is on its way so they'd better clean house now. They have way too many nasty people working for them.

There's nothing worse than a crass person trying to pass themselves off as above it all. That's Holts staff in a nutshell.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by davidivivid

It´s infortunate considering Holt Renfrew was founded in Québec City 177 years ago...

I would have thought that they'd try and maintain a presence in QC for that reason. Ottawa is a surprise as well. It's as big as Edmonton and Calgary with similar income levels.

[1overcosc]

Ottawa has high average income but at the same time there's not a lot of rich people in the city.

Ottawa has a lot of people in the $80k-$120k range that skew the average numbers up, but considering its size it actually has a lot fewer $120k+ people than you'd expect.

In other words, Ottawa is full of people who are in that I'm-rich-enough-to-be-comfortable-but-not-rich-enough-to-buy-luxury-goods bracket.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ottawa has high average income but at the same time there's not a lot of rich people in the city.

Ottawa has a lot of people in the $80k-$120k range that skew the average numbers up, but considering its size it actually has a lot fewer $120k+ people than you'd expect.

In other words, Ottawa is full of people who are in that I'm-rich-enough-to-be-comfortable-but-not-rich-enough-to-buy-luxury-goods bracket.

Ottawans are also fairly conservative when it comes to their personal spending.

[Gerrard]

Luxury is aspirational, the 80-120k customer is exactly what keeps luxury in business.

Acajack might be right about conservative spending habits.

The other thing is the store was a tiny box without much selection and Montreal is 2 hours away, not to mention internet sales (which often have better selection and sizing, often cheaper prices and good return policies.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Luxury is aspirational, the 80-120k customer is exactly what keeps luxury in business.

Acajack might be right about conservative spending habits.

The other thing is the store was a tiny box without much selection and Montreal is 2 hours away, not to mention internet sales (which often have better selection and sizing, often cheaper prices and good return policies.

Most of the articles I've read on the topic of luxury retailing in Canada have emphasized the fact that it is largely international (i.e. Asian) consumers that are driving that trend. That's why Vancouver (forgive me) punches above its weight when it comes to having a large array of luxury retailers.

Toronto is obviously big enough to support those retailers on the strength of their own population, but mid-sized Canadian cities without a large influx of retail dollars from abroad are not really going to be hotbeds for luxury goods. Calgary is perhaps the main exception given its unique circumstances.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ottawans are also fairly conservative when it comes to their personal spending.

In less diplomatic terms, they're cheap!

[SpongeG]

what does service mean to you people here? when i have been to harry rosen i find them really annoying and pushy, i don't want you to talk to me or suggest something i might like, just leave me alone and let me look at a few things, i never shop there i don't buy designer i just like to look at it.

i don't know if thats service, if it is i call that annoying harrasment almost

[MalcolmTucker]

Service is them asking for what you want, getting it, and you are out with something ordered in a short amount of time that meets your needs more than you could have done shopping on your own.

Most of the time I like shopping by myself without interference, but good service in retail is like getting a haircut, sometimes it is better to trust the experts.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ottawans are also fairly conservative when it comes to their personal spending.

But it's also the capital. All those diplomats and embassy people. They're exactly the type of people that spend lavishly on themselves.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by isaidso

But it's also the capital. All those diplomats and embassy people. They're exactly the type of people that spend lavishly on themselves.

Your impression of the diplomatic set is very circa-1970. Not so much anymore. The foreign dips I've known tend to go down to Syracuse to shop.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

That's all I had to hear.

What else does anyone need? rock solid scientific proof. woot.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ottawa has high average income but at the same time there's not a lot of rich people in the city.

Ottawa has a lot of people in the $80k-$120k range that skew the average numbers up, but considering its size it actually has a lot fewer $120k+ people than you'd expect.

In other words, Ottawa is full of people who are in that I'm-rich-enough-to-be-comfortable-but-not-rich-enough-to-buy-luxury-goods bracket.

I'd be curious to know how you define these things. What's rich? What's rich enough to be comfortable? What's comfortable? What's rich enough to buy luxury goods? What's a luxury good?

I must also admit that I find some peoples' definition of rich to be curious. i.e., since when does one's salary imply one's wealth? I have a relative who's a CFP and he has dozens of clients with high annual salaries (north of $150K) but don't have a penny to their names in terms of savings. Are they rich?

[isaidso]

^^ I'd say you need a salary of about $250,000 to be rich these days. $100,000 to $250,000 is well off. Below $15,000 and you're in survival mode.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Your impression of the diplomatic set is very circa-1970. Not so much anymore. The foreign dips I've known tend to go down to Syracuse to shop.

Maybe I'm assuming they're comparable to the diplomatic set in London. They spend. Is shopping really that bad that people go to Syracuse? Or are these bargain shopping trips to Syracuse?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ I'd say you need a salary of about $250,000 to be rich these days. $100,000 to $250,000 is well off. Below $15,000 and you're in survival mode.



Maybe I'm assuming they're comparable to the diplomatic set in London. They spend. Is shopping really that bad that people go to Syracuse? Or are these bargain shopping trips to Syracuse?

Both. They're looking for bargains and stuff that's not on display everywhere in Ottawa. Ottawa is not a good city for shopping, in general.