Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[bob rulz]

Why is it a bad thing that TRAX and FrontRunner trains are nearly empty at certain hours? I'm sure peak-hour ridership more than makes up for that. And as far as I'm concerned, public transportation is a public SERVICE - it should be available as often as it's feasible to do so (shame about UTA's late night service).

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Why is it a bad thing that TRAX and FrontRunner trains are nearly empty at certain hours? I'm sure peak-hour ridership more than makes up for that. And as far as I'm concerned, public transportation is a public SERVICE - it should be available as often as it's feasible to do so (shame about UTA's late night service).

Amen. It's like looking at an empty road at an off time and saying that it shouldn't be there because no one's using it. It's a lame way of looking at transit.

[Hatman]

If I remember right, the average utilization of capacity of US transit systems nationwide is about 1/3... 37%, if I'm not mistaken. This number is achieved by dividing the passenger-miles by seat-miles. This means that transit seats spend most of their total traveled miles empty. (I tried to find a source, but in my rush I could only find BART's numbers from San Francisco - 37%)
Imagine TRAX headed downtown in the morning. Let's imagine that it's full, 100% capacity utilized. Great! But then that train turns around and goes back to the suburbs, taking all that capacity with it. If we're lucky we may get 25% capacity, but probably much less.
It's the 'chair-lift' dilemma; half of what a chair lift does is move skiers up to the top of the slopes. The other half is returning all those empty seats to the bottom of the mountain for more skiers. This is why transit vehicles usually have a higher standing capacity than seating capacity - so that they don't go around all day hauling empty seats.

This may sound bad, but take a moment to consider cars. The average car has 5 seats, and 1.2 passengers. That gives you a whopping capacity utilization of 24%. So already cars are an inferior use of transportation capacity, and this is before we talk about land-use (parking lots and ultra-wide highways) and emissions, and all the other 'social costs' of preferring cars over other modes.
It makes me so frustrated when people complain about empty trains and buses from the comfort of their empty cars.

[bob rulz]

Completely agreed.

I think I remember reading that there are 5 times as many parking spaces as there are people in this country. Or maybe it's 5 times as many parking spaces as there are cars.

Either way it's a terrible statistic.

I wish there was an easy way to convey to people who complain about the amount of money that we spend on transit that we spend far far more of their hard-earned money subsidizing cars, roads, and parking spots.

[ajiuO]

I think the 5400 S. experiment has failed and it's time to get rid of that weird ass traffic system. My sister lives in the area and says that there are constantly accidents... And the way that the turn lane system works confuses people... Now a pedestrian has been killed... I think we should probably just get rid of that. It helps traffic a little bit but it's not worth it.... It's just too confusing for a lot of people. Most people have never seen something like that and I have no clue how it works.

[brankrom]

Just renewed... well, extended my Hive Pass. Her's a copy of the email I received:

You are receiving this email because you purchased your Hive Pass either in February or March of last year. We know you’re probably wondering what will happen to your pass as you approach your 365 day expiration. The Mayor has proposed a program that would revise the Hive Pass, and make it available again for you. More details are at www.ridewithhive.com. As the City Council is determining whether they will approve the new program, we are offering to you the ability to extend your Hive Pass for 30 days at the same $30/month rate as you have today. Please note this will be temporary, and payments will not be accepted beyond March 30, 2015 and you must pay before your expiration date. This is only offered to customers with passes expiring during February and March 2015. Hopefully by that time we will be able to report progress on the new program. We recommend that you pay before your expiration date to make sure your card is extended for the additional 30 day period. To temporarily extend your pass, please contract Public Utilities Customer Service Department at 801-483-6900.

Please visit www.ridewithhive.com, or call (801-483-6900) for more details and updates.

Thanks for riding with Hive!

They didn't really tell me what the "New Program" was, they just took my money... I'm guessing this extension is just a tool to gauge interest in continuing the program. I hope it does continue and is expanded. ETA: Just noticed that the new Hive pass doesn't include Front Runner... I don't use it often but it was a nice perk to be able to hop on front runner without having to do the fare machine dance.

[slc801]

Originally Posted by brankrom

Just renewed... well, extended my Hive Pass. Her's a copy of the email I received:


They didn't really tell me what the "New Program" was, they just took my money... I'm guessing this extension is just a tool to gauge interest in continuing the program. I hope it does continue and is expanded. ETA: Just noticed that the new Hive pass doesn't include Front Runner... I don't use it often but it was a nice perk to be able to hop on front runner without having to do the fare machine dance.

I extended mine does as well. According to their website, here is the new pass that they are working on:

The Hive Coop Pass is a proposal to implement a new program whereby a monthly pass will be available to Salt Lake City residents, and the cost will be shared by the purchaser (who pays 50% of the cost), Salt Lake City (who pays 30% of the cost), and UTA (who pays 20% of the cost). For Salt Lake City residents that means passes would be available for $42.00 a month, if approved by the City Council. Components of the pass program include:

-The pass would work for bus routes, TRAX, and Streetcar. Pass will be not valid on Front Runner, Ski Routes, Paratransit Routes, Special Service and Park City– SLC Connect service.
-In person purchase would be required for the first month, and renewals would be available on line.
-The pass would be deactivated 30 days after the purchase unless renewed by purchaser. Renewals will be available on-line.
-Passes may be purchased for as many months at a time that the purchaser would like.
-There is no proposed change to the Voucher program. Vouchers will continue to be sold to public service agencies that provide services to low income or disadvantaged populations. Vouchers may be purchased annually for $360.

I think that the extension on the HIVE pass still includes Frontrunner, although the new one will not. While it isn't as good as the HIVE pass, the new deal is half off of what a monthly pass is for people who just use TRAX and buses.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I think the 5400 S. experiment has failed and it's time to get rid of that weird ass traffic system. My sister lives in the area and says that there are constantly accidents... And the way that the turn lane system works confuses people... Now a pedestrian has been killed... I think we should probably just get rid of that. It helps traffic a little bit but it's not worth it.... It's just too confusing for a lot of people. Most people have never seen something like that and I have no clue how it works.

Actually I use it everyday and while it's confusing to some people there is a learning curve to every new type of traffic configuration. It sucks that a pedestrian was killed, but dumb drivers not caring enough to pay attention to something different shouldn't preclude a street from being more efficient.

There was obviously a need for a change, due to huge amounts of traffic during rush hour. The street is already very wide, what would you propose the solution be to alleviate traffic congestion during rush hour? More lanes, in both directions, having to widen the I-215 overpass, taking out more houses and more businesses? Just for a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening.

The Single Point Urban Interchange that we are now all very familiar with and is common place on most of our Freeway on/off ramps had a big learning curve when it was first introduced. I believe 6200 S or California Ave were the first ones that UDOT built. It took people some time to get used to it, but now we are all used to them and it is much more efficient that the older style intersection that all of I-15 had prior to the SL County rebuild.

[goldcntry]

Originally Posted by ajiuO View Post
I think the 5400 S. experiment has failed and it's time to get rid of that weird ass traffic system. My sister lives in the area and says that there are constantly accidents... And the way that the turn lane system works confuses people... Now a pedestrian has been killed... I think we should probably just get rid of that. It helps traffic a little bit but it's not worth it.... It's just too confusing for a lot of people. Most people have never seen something like that and I have no clue how it works

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Actually I use it everyday and while it's confusing to some people there is a learning curve to every new type of traffic configuration. It sucks that a pedestrian was killed, but dumb drivers not caring enough to pay attention to something different shouldn't preclude a street from being more efficient.

There was obviously a need for a change, due to huge amounts of traffic during rush hour. The street is already very wide, what would you propose the solution be to alleviate traffic congestion during rush hour? More lanes, in both directions, having to widen the I-215 overpass, taking out more houses and more businesses? Just for a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening.

As one who lives just off of 54th South and 32nd West, I have a love/hate relationship with the system. I do see fender-benders, accidents, near-misses, folks in the wrong lane, etc, on this stretch daily. I will say the lane changes at rush hours have made an impact for me: I avoid 54th during that time like the plague. I work early enough in the mornings that I'm not affected; however, I'm more than willing to go out of my way to 47th or go surface on 32nd to avoid the 4-7 block.

And just to be clear FM, it was the pedestrian at fault crossing against the light in the dark, not a "dumb" driver. Yes we have plenty of dumb/careless drivers out there, but there are equally dumbcareless pedestrians.

[Hatman]

I'm glad UDOT is sticking with the flex lanes, and even improving them. I know there are many people who don't like them, and UDOT must be getting an earful from the public, but I think it is a good idea in this and other locations.

What other places would be ideal for flex lanes? I've heard Foothill Drive mentioned a few times...

Unrelated, but I was digging through more APTA data and found that they report the individual costs of services provided by individual transit agencies. Here's UTA's numbers (with a small bit of formatting from your's truly):


With these numbers we could do an actual cost-per-mile analysis rather than a theoretical one. But, as I have no time for that right now, just enjoy the raw data. What surprises me most is how much more the buses cost to operate vs light rail. I mean, it's like 2.5x more even though the amount of trips and passenger miles are almost the same.
Oh, and Van Pools are awesome.

[SLC Projects]

We hear about how we need to raise the gas tax because we can't afford to fix our roads and then there's talks about a Bill that would raise salary of Utah governor, other officials.
See, this is the bullshit I've been talking about. Waste of tax dollars.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

We hear about how we need to raise the gas tax because we can't afford to fix our roads and then there's talks about a Bill that would raise salary of Utah governor, other officials.
See, this is the bullshit I've been talking about. Waste of tax dollars.

When the Governor gets paid less than a mayor, even a part time mayor, the Governor is underpaid.

Government should pay close to the same wages that are in the private sector for high quality workers. When they don't, good people leave and everyone suffers. This is the people with the ideas and ability to execute the ideas that leave. Without them, we would be closer to 3rd world status.

Just look at highway and transportation funding. Taxes on gas haven't moved since the early 90's. Yet, inflation is up and usage is up. Local taxes have had to increase to fill the demand.

Why has this happened. Good people were replaced with people that only cared about their party not their country.

The US is around 20th on the Freedom scale and is just a step above 3rd world for infrastructure.

There isn't enough waste in government to restore funding to infrastructure back to levels of the late 80's to early 90's let alone do all the fixes needed to bring the service and reliability back up to what it was due to the current state.

Currently the gas tax (Federal and State) bring in just enough for basic repairs of the roadways. This basic repair doesn't even count bridge replacement. Each one there is a bond (debt).

Utah subsidizes roads nearly twice as much as any other state. Utah pumps between 2/3 and 3/4 of the UDOT budget from the general fund. With a gas tax increase of only $0.10, this subsidy would drop to 1/3 to 1/2 of the UDOT budget.

It is estimated that the US as a whole is 4-6 Trillion in infrastructure debt, meaning this is the current needs to bring the US up to modern levels. With $250 Billion a year, this is only 16 to 24 years to bring infrastructure to 2015 levels. So we would still be 24 years behind potentially. This is without any increase in ongoing funds.

President Obama has suggested that we fund infrastructure improvements via closing loopholes and some tax increases. His plan would close the gap in funding.

However, this plan won't go anywhere because a loophole closing is a tax increase and a tax increase is well, a tax increase. Even if it is on those making more than $1 Million a year.

Heck, even removing the $250,000 cap on Social Security is considered a tax increase.

Rather than fear of increased taxes, the population should want a full accounting of how taxes are spent and they should also be wanting things that are bought with taxes to be well maintained to reduce the need to further increase taxes to repair them, let alone better them (where we are now).


Also, Hatman, that is great information. I agree that I didn't realize the gap would be that wide. If UTA can get transit ridership to double by 2020/2021 then those costs would also decrease. I wonder where the level of riders needs to be on buses for rail and buses to be equal.

I know that the numbers would be somewhat difficult to figure because as we add more riders, more buses would need to be added. There should be a level though where it evens out. Doubling riders now should only need what an extra 1/3 buses?

Also, on this topic, at what point should a bus line be considered for conversion to BRT and then from BRT to LRT? Should it be based on usage, crush levels, current built environment, future planned environment or all of these?

[Wasatch Wasteland]

I believe that that decision is based on all of those, only considering one or two can be dangerous.

Also, along with that whole Bus to BRT to Light rail, do you think it is possible that the Utah county TRAX line could eventually be extended along the provo Orem BRT route? (Im talking like 2040+) They both end at the Orem frontrunner station and it makes sense to me to continue it into downtown provo/BYU. Also in the Draft Master Plan it talks about an eventual light rail extension into the springville and spanish fork area, would this have anything to do with that?

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

I believe that that decision is based on all of those, only considering one or two can be dangerous.

Also, along with that whole Bus to BRT to Light rail, do you think it is possible that the Utah county TRAX line could eventually be extended along the provo Orem BRT route? (Im talking like 2040+) They both end at the Orem frontrunner station and it makes sense to me to continue it into downtown provo/BYU. Also in the Draft Master Plan it talks about an eventual light rail extension into the springville and spanish fork area, would this have anything to do with that?

This is the long range plan for the line. Eventually the Orem/Provo BRT would be converted to Trax. This would make a single line going from Provo to SLC. Eventually, the line would also extend further south. I think that is post 2040 though.

If the Orem extension of Trax happens in the next 5 years, I think Trax to Provo is only another 5 years out from that (10 or so years from now). After that, I think Trax to Eagle Mountain will happen before the blue line is extended further south than Provo.

For conversions, I would think that BRT to Farmington/Centerville and Orem/Provo BRT would be converted to LRT around the same time. If only for political reasons.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

I remember last year my grandmother (unfortunately no longer with us, mid nineties) was complaining about receiving a notice of a future TRAX line/station near her neighborhood in Saratoga Springs, and asking for her opinion on the matter (It was lengthy and negative). I am almost positive this was the eagle mountain line. They keep saying they are in the early stages of even a proposal but they must already have a pretty definite route in mind already.

If you go to the master plans on Saratoga's website you can see all the possible alignments and concepts. Also you can see the few hundred freeways they are building in the coming years. Yay.

Interestingly, also in their master plans, I found that Saratoga (which by 2050 will have a population close to that of the current Salt Lake) will mostly be a massive daybreak-esk development. Identical houses, identical streets, identical people probably… thoughts?

Also does anyone know information about the future commuter rail line down the west side of utah county? How extremely far out is it? I know it's not until development reaches the goshen valley, which might not be too far out considering utah county is supposed to be 1.6 million in 2060.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

I used Also way too many times in that last post

Just imagine some "furthermores" and "additionallys" and "moreovers" instead.

[jubguy3]

I hate the MAG so much. They are planning TWO Utah Lake Crossings. Wtf. They are a huge bag of republiwhores. I irrationally hate them. And like another 5 bil in freeways IIRC.

[Boz]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

I hate the MAG so much. They are planning TWO Utah Lake Crossings. Wtf. They are a huge bag of republiwhores. I irrationally hate them. And like another 5 bil in freeways IIRC.

Republicans and Democrats are inept.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Boz

Republicans and Democrats are inept.

The only reason democrats are "inept," as you put it, is because they have no power in this theocratic State.

[Hatman]

Okay, Y'all need ta be more cautious when lookin' over them long-term plans by MAG.

Seriously, when MAG says 'vision' what they really mean is 'It's a nice idea, but we'll just let it sit until people forget about it.' From my conversations with MAG people - who strike me as practical, pragmatic, and well-versed in transportation's many subtitles - I've seen how many different ideas are thrown at them, and how they try to at least include them all so that no one gets 'turned-off' to the transportation planning process. So things like the lake crossing (some people are really interested in it still) get included in preliminary studies, but aren't seriously considered beyond that.
The same goes for many rail transit lines to the west of Utah County. I've seen many concepts of light-rail being extended out to Eagle Mountain and the like (and they are including space for it in many right-of-way concept designs), but so far nothing concrete like a serious time-line, a serious funding mechanism, or a serious discussions of right-of-ways and stops. So far it's all hypothetical.

This is also especially true for the proposed commuter rail line down the west side of the lake. If one day Goshen Valley ever becomes 'a thing' and UTA gets serious about extending FrontRunner commuter rail there, they already have the right-of-way between Goshen and Payson. It makes infinitely more sense to build from Payson because the line is shorter, the right-of-way already exists, and then trains would go directly to Provo and other hot-spots in Utah County. Running down the other side of the lake is kind of pointless in comparison.

If that side gets built up like they say it will, I can see the benefit of running light rail down from the future station at Adobe, past the Lehi FrontRunner station, and out to Eagle Mountain and the like, then perhaps south from there, but certianly not commuter rail. Light rail is much more flexible in its alignment and speed.
But this is only if that side gets as dense as they say it will. I hate to be doubtful, but that area is developing as pretty solid sprawl, and isn't entirely conducive to supporting a strong transit ridership.

And while the huge 'freeways' are slightly more likely to be built, I won't count on those either. Perhaps 'expressways' or 'parkways' sort of like State Street, but certainly not 'freeways.' Nobody has the money for that, especially out there in the desert.

On a more cheerful note, this is a new addition to State Street in South Salt Lake, at the old Utah Auto Gallery (about 2300 south):

It's right in the crook of I-15 and I-80, and 10 supercharger stalls are currently under construction. Supposedly a full service center on the site is soon to follow! Wow!